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-   -   Which enclosure for my 18" Ultimax? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3118826-enclosure-my-18-ultimax.html)

ifixtheinternet 01-25-2020 08:53 PM

Which enclosure for my 18" Ultimax?
 
I've finally got the green light from the wife to build a subwoofer! I guess it helps that my BIL builds cabinets and wants to help! The UM18 is on the way and I need to get started on the box. I've always wanted a great sub but never had the budget for one. Currently I have a Cadence X-sub 12, which doesn't have much usable output below 35hz.

I really want deep ULF the most, but use the system for music sometimes.

I cant decide if I want to build a sealed enclosure or a mini Marty (WAF limit). My living room is 15' x 14' with 8'6" ceilings, which comes out to just under 2000 cubic feet.

There is a 6 foot wide entry to the dining on left and opening to hallway on front wall on the right, with bay window on right.

The sub would go in the front left corner, the best spot I've measured. If I build a mini Marty it has to lay horizontal.

It seems like I'd benefit from room gain quite a bit at this size though. would real gang also affect the ported box equally, making up the best choice no matter what?

If I built a sealed enclosure I could probably forgo getting a minidsp for high pass duty. My Onkyo AVR has both auto EQ and a manual sub EQ which I can stack, so there's flexibility there already.

I have my eye on the crown XLS 1002 to drive the sub.


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Chris Popovich 01-25-2020 11:41 PM

Ultimax is close to a 6 ohm load; go crown xls1502 vs. the 1002. The 2502 will work too but then you'll have the capability of melting it. ;)

As for sealed vs. ported, if it's just one ultimax, you'll prob really want to go ported for the extra output. It's significant.

ifixtheinternet 01-26-2020 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Popovich (Post 59154690)
Ultimax is close to a 6 ohm load; go crown xls1502 vs. the 1002. The 2502 will work too but then you'll have the capability of melting it. ;)



As for sealed vs. ported, if it's just one ultimax, you'll prob really want to go ported for the extra output. It's significant.

Ah, there goes the budget again!
Thanks for the heads up, that would be particularly important for the seal box if I wanted to go that route.

at this point I'm leaning pretty hard towards the mini Marty since the wife has given me the green light. I should probably lock that in before she changes her mind. [emoji16]

If 1000 Watts will not be enough then I may look into other amp options. I was hoping to keep the amp budget at 200-250.



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Chris Popovich 01-26-2020 11:03 AM

It's not a huge difference, but you can expect a real world 8-900ish watts out of an xls1002 into that load. A xls1502 is a great match and powerful enough to be pretty good at running mains full range should the opportunity present itself. If you keep an eye out for sales, open box deals etc. it may be close to your budget, or of course used stuff locally via craigslist/offerup/etc. At the end of the day if you pick up the smaller amp you'll be ok, just it's a good opportunity to have some more headroom.

And yes, subs are almost always larger in person than you think, so if you have the green light, full throttle forward! Have fun!

Fackamato 01-27-2020 10:03 AM

So, what is ULF to you? I have two sealed 18's (thread) and having that 15Hz and below response is quite cool. The Ultimax's aren't that great for the upper / midbass though. Many people pair them with MBM's, I instead upgraded the mains (HTM-10).


You'll get much much much more output by going ported, but you won't get that ULF. Oh, and you definitely need EQ/DSP!

ifixtheinternet 01-27-2020 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fackamato (Post 59160224)
So, what is ULF to you? I have two sealed 18's (thread) and having that 15Hz and below response is quite cool. The Ultimax's aren't that great for the upper / midbass though. Many people pair them with MBM's, I instead upgraded the mains (HTM-10).


You'll get much much much more output by going ported, but you won't get that ULF. Oh, and you definitely need EQ/DSP!

To me ULF is 10-20hz, so yeah that is what I'm after.
I love movies and I've always wanted to experience frequency effects you can only feel!

The 12" ported sub is plenty powerful from 40-100hz but doesn't get much below that.

If a sealed box will get me more of that in my size room then that's what I'm after. But I'm just not sure how room gain plays into it. Can't really boost the low frequencies below port tune if I build a ported box, that's my main concern.

Looking at the measurements, a UM18 mini marty still has more output at 10hz than when in a sealed box.

Does room gain work with a sealed box better to take advantage of that and pull ahead?

Hopefully I don't need the Ultimax to play too high. Right now crossovers are set at 80hz but My towers have good output down to 40hz and the center / surround can be set at 60hz.

I was thinking about building mains as s next project, but one thing at a time [emoji16]







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Fackamato 01-28-2020 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59162874)
Can't really boost the low frequencies below port tune if I build a ported box, that's my main concern.


Correct, you can't boost below the tuning frequency of a ported sub (well, you can, but it won't work).


Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59162874)
Looking at the measurements, a UM18 mini marty still has more output at 10hz than when in a sealed box.

Does room gain work with a sealed box better to take advantage of that and pull ahead?


Room gain doesn't care about what sub type it is. It boosts the same frequencies regardless - if the subs are compared in the same location, of course.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59162874)
Hopefully I don't need the Ultimax to play too high. Right now crossovers are set at 80hz but My towers have good output down to 40hz and the center / surround can be set at 60hz.

I was thinking about building mains as s next project, but one thing at a time [emoji16]

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Definitely start with 80Hz and mains as small and see how you like it.

Vergiliusm 01-28-2020 09:25 AM

If you ever were going to go sealed, that would be the driver to use(in that price range)with its good excursion and reasonable F3. With some EQ and room assist you should be able to get the shape of response you want down low with the added extension. If you want a little more "fun" sound, build the box a little smaller and you'll get a small bump in response at resonance.

blake18 01-28-2020 11:55 PM

I'd go with a Full Marty flatpack from GSG Audio and a Behringer NX6000D or NX3000D.

ifixtheinternet 01-30-2020 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vergiliusm (Post 59164268)
If you ever were going to go sealed, that would be the driver to use(in that price range)with its good excursion and reasonable F3. With some EQ and room assist you should be able to get the shape of response you want down low with the added extension. If you want a little more "fun" sound, build the box a little smaller and you'll get a small bump in response at resonance.

Do you think with my room size and enough power I would be able to better the 15-20hz range with a sealed box and single sub, or would the mini Marty be a better choice with one sub?

If they were equal in that range but the mini Marty had more up top then I'd go mini Marty.

I'm willing to sacrifice top-end to get lower extension, just not sure how much improvement I can expect, if any going sealed.

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ifixtheinternet 01-30-2020 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blake18 (Post 59167852)
I'd go with a Full Marty flatpack from GSG Audio and a Behringer NX6000D or NX3000D.

Unfortunately not enough room for a full Marty.
The boss says it must lay sideways and I only have 40 inch of space available.

The amp choice has been tough.
I thought I wanted a crown but I hear they're not the best for subs because they start to roll off around 20 Hertz, which is not really what I want.

That sucks because it has RCA inputs with switchable sensitivity, is quiet, nice-looking, lightweight, everything else that I want.

Almost picked up a used QSC RMX 1450 I planned to mod the fan, but I realized it's over 40 pounds and that would put the shelf I want it on over capacity.

Do the Behringer MX series do better in the 10-20 hz range then the crowns? If so that might be an option.

I see it also has a high pass filter so I could probably make do without a mini DSP if I went that route and ended up doing a mini Marty. But I think I'm still left with the sensitivity issue there and it would need to buy something to remedy that.




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Fackamato 01-30-2020 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59174200)
Unfortunately not enough room for a full Marty.
The boss says it must lay sideways and I only have 40 inch of space available.

The amp choice has been tough.
I thought I wanted a crown but I hear they're not the best for subs because they start to roll off around 20 Hertz, which is not really what I want.

That sucks because it has RCA inputs with switchable sensitivity, is quiet, nice-looking, lightweight, everything else that I want.

Almost picked up a used QSC RMX 1450 I planned to mod the fan, but I realized it's over 40 pounds and that would put the shelf I want it on over capacity.

Do the Behringer MX series do better in the 10-20 hz range then the crowns? If so that might be an option.

I see it also has a high pass filter so I could probably make do without a mini DSP if I went that route and ended up doing a mini Marty. But I think I'm still left with the sensitivity issue there and it would need to buy something to remedy that.




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Amp wise - if it starts to roll off, you'll notice it in measurements, so you'd just boost those frequencies, countering the amp's natural roll off. Nothing to sorry about there (unless it's actually cutting everything off, vs a gradual roll off).

a77cj7 01-30-2020 09:30 AM

Which enclosure for my 18" Ultimax?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59174200)
Unfortunately not enough room for a full Marty.
The boss says it must lay sideways and I only have 40 inch of space available.

The amp choice has been tough.
I thought I wanted a crown but I hear they're not the best for subs because they start to roll off around 20 Hertz, which is not really what I want.

That sucks because it has RCA inputs with switchable sensitivity, is quiet, nice-looking, lightweight, everything else that I want.


The crown xls have been used by plenty of people to power subs with no complaints.
With a mini marty, your HPF will be rolling off at 20 anyway.

EDIT: I believe the original report of 20hz rolloff claimed ALL crown amps. My crown dci’s run clean, pushing full power till my 11hz HPF. The one I’m powering BOSS with runs down to 7hz where my signal chain rolls off.

Chris

schmidtwi 01-30-2020 06:54 PM

The UM18 is an awesome sub! They are great in sealed enclosures, like 6cu. ft. You will not be satisfied with 1, so buy an amp that will drive 2, like the iNuke 6k.


Welcome to the rabbit hole... :-)

ifixtheinternet 01-30-2020 08:30 PM

Wow, this is one sexy beast.

I brought it over to my 12" cadence.

"Well. I guess, I thought you two should meet. Yeah."https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...30a5a31d0b.jpg

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Vergiliusm 01-31-2020 05:54 AM

Quote:

Do you think with my room size and enough power I would be able to better the 15-20hz range with a sealed box and single sub, or would the mini Marty be a better choice with one sub?
As has been mentioned. if max spl is the main factor, then ported is the way to go. That higher Q driver works best in a larger, low tuned box, something akin to a QB3 alignment, but the mini marty is a reasonable compromise, if a smaller box size is of primary importance.

I've had my Ultimaxes in a variety of enclosures & alignments, but in my smallish, multi-use room(70% music, 30% movies), I prefer sealed for overall performance. To be fair though, I haven't been able to build the large ported boxes I'd prefer due to WAF.

Good luck and enjoy.

Bearcat08 01-31-2020 07:07 AM

I just built the sealed version from PE paired with an UM18 and xls1502. I wasn't sold on sealed before the purchase and after hearing it i'm still not. I wont say I am highly disappointed but I did expect a lot more and its enough disappointment that i will be transferring it to a full Marty cabinet. I personally will not waste my time with a sealed subwoofer again.

ifixtheinternet 01-31-2020 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat08 (Post 59178852)
I just built the sealed version from PE paired with an UM18 and xls1502. I wasn't sold on sealed before the purchase and after hearing it i'm still not. I wont say I am highly disappointed but I did expect a lot more and its enough disappointment that i will be transferring it to a full Marty cabinet. I personally will not waste my time with a sealed subwoofer again.

What size room did the sealed box go in?

And by you expected more, do you mean overall volume or low extension? I'd be willing to sacrifice a lot of max spl if it meant more meaningful output below 20hz.



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ifixtheinternet 01-31-2020 10:14 AM

Okay thanks for the help everyone.

Considering room gain affects both boxes equally, I can make assumptions based on the model of each box in winisd.

Looking at the sealed vs martysub comparison, with all things being equal, the martysub has the sealed beat by 3db at 10hz.

The mini Marty is nearly identical to the full Marty around 10-15 hz, maybe 1-2db down.

The point where the Marty and sealed box would become equal is like 6hz!?

So really there is no benefit for me in way of output or extension to build a sealed box.

Mini Marty it is!



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Fackamato 01-31-2020 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59179854)
Okay thanks for the help everyone.

Considering room gain affects both boxes equally, I can make assumptions based on the model of each box in winisd.

Looking at the sealed vs martysub comparison, with all things being equal, the martysub has the sealed beat by 3db at 10hz.

The mini Marty is nearly identical to the full Marty around 10-15 hz, maybe 1-2db down.

The point where the Marty and sealed box would become equal is like 6hz!?

So really there is no benefit for me in way of output or extension to build a sealed box.

Mini Marty it is!



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Well yeah :), the Mini Marty is like double the size and volume of a sealed kit.

Bearcat08 02-01-2020 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59179260)
What size room did the sealed box go in?

And by you expected more, do you mean overall volume or low extension? I'd be willing to sacrifice a lot of max spl if it meant more meaningful output below 20hz.



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there is a lot of low end below 40 that will rumble the house sufficiently. my room is 24ft x 11ft x 8ft. The mid bass honestly is just terrible for my use cases (60% movies 40% music). I had a no name ported 18 a while back and that would unscrew light bulbs this can only come somewhat close to that output at the lower end. The driver is 10 times better than the one i used to have so i know its the enclosure. Like I said if you love bass, depending on room size, you might be disappointed. I couldn't understand why people were buying 4 and 5 of these sealed but it makes sense now.

ifixtheinternet 02-01-2020 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat08 (Post 59183542)
there is a lot of low end below 40 that will rumble the house sufficiently. my room is 24ft x 11ft x 8ft. The mid bass honestly is just terrible for my use cases (60% movies 40% music). I had a no name ported 18 a while back and that would unscrew light bulbs this can only come somewhat close to that output at the lower end. The driver is 10 times better than the one i used to have so i know its the enclosure. Like I said if you love bass, depending on room size, you might be disappointed. I couldn't understand why people were buying 4 and 5 of these sealed but it makes sense now.

Yeah I guess that's why the martysub is so great if you have the space. Looks like it will take 3 or 4 sealed boxes to match a single martysub at 20hz.

I didn't realize it was that extreme, I'm definitely building a mini Marty.

Maybe you could build a micro Marty, or figure out how to place the sealed box near-field for the effect you're looking for.

Seems like a near field sealed would sound a lot cleaner than a martysub. I thought about it myself, possibly building a coffee table sub but it's not been approved yet. :-)

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Green Chemist 02-05-2020 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59179854)
Okay thanks for the help everyone.

Considering room gain affects both boxes equally, I can make assumptions based on the model of each box in winisd.

Looking at the sealed vs martysub comparison, with all things being equal, the martysub has the sealed beat by 3db at 10hz.

The mini Marty is nearly identical to the full Marty around 10-15 hz, maybe 1-2db down.

The point where the Marty and sealed box would become equal is like 6hz!?

So really there is no benefit for me in way of output or extension to build a sealed box.

Mini Marty it is!



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...4fbd2365f9.jpg

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Do you have a high pass filter modeled on that Mini-Marty? Sorry if I missed it. That seems like way more output, sub-15 Hz, than you should be getting. If you add one at 17 or 18 Hz (to protect the driver), you'll probably see that the sealed box performs better than you think way down there. But as has been stated, more is always better! :)

BassThatHz 02-06-2020 03:40 AM

Are you modeling with the appropriate HPF? (ie 12db/oct @ tune.)
Do that, and the sealed might pull ahead.

A 20hz ported box should be roughly -3db @ 20hz and like -15db @ 10hz
A 15hz ported box should be roughly -3db @ 15hz and like -15db @ 7.5hz
maybe a bit worse than that real-world...

You can kiss the idea of 10hz good bye. It takes like 8 sealed UM-18's to hit that with authority.
Even 4 Full Marties tuned to 15hz can't do that (which I have heard and measured in-person.)

You'd need to tune to 10hz instead, which is gonna require two JTR4000-sized boxes (basically two freezer-sized boxes, at a MINIMUM.)
That's the only way ported will be hitting that low.

Sealed is basically for rich people with no WAF; say 8 sealed 24's etc.
People who want the ultimate in SQ and are fully committed to selling their very soul to achieve it.
Ported generally doesn't scale well past 8 subwoofers or cone-diameters greater than 23inches; it's just not practical.
Who wants to own 32 ported subs and STILL be -3db @ 15hz? That's just silly IMO.
All the king's horses and DSP's in the universe can't overcome the physical handicap of ported/horned.

Where as with sealed or IB, you can... you can be flat to 1-3hz. It's just really inefficient and expensive and large. Lots of breakers and amps too...

Sealed doesn't make sense... in low quantities.
(The one exception is: extreme space-constraint/high-WAF.)

Ported and Horned also have a massive phase shift at tuning. Having ported mains requires bass-management to be enabled, with the subwoofers LPF set to that value to avoid the phase shift in the critical mid-bass.
Sealed mains and sealed subwoofers don't have this problem, their outputs sum smoothly without a nasty 180degree shift, without any correction being required. It's much easier to integrate different brands of drivers when everything is sealed.

Both my mains and subwoofers are sealed and are flat to 2hz with EQ.
My system is way louder than even 4 Full VBSS's + 4 Full Marties.

My ULF Score back in 2018 for example: (which I'm STILL working to improve on...)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...mentid=2419576
(and if they ever make a Mid-Bass Score chart, then it is even crazier! :p)

If you are on a budget and don't mind fridge-sized boxes. Ported/Horned makes sense.
Or if you live in a barn and don't care about 1-10hz, or are playing in an outdoor rock-concert filled with drunk people at >30hz.
Or if you are trying to optimize from tuning-up in a given space.

High Fidelity requires being flat to well-beyond the standard definition of the human hearing range. Say 1-3hz to 25khz, just to ensure everything is fully covered.
Humans can hear and feel single digits, *if* you get it loud enough...
There can be masking effects, but essentially (<10% THD at the chair):
1-5hz 120-190db
10hz 110-160db
20hz 70-100db
Most systems fall well short of these minimums, and you'll know it, when you can't hear/feel it.
(or are only hearing/feeling the THD. This includes objects rattling away.)
It also depends on your exact hearing, floor type, and assuming you aren't sitting in a room null etc.
i.e. it varies some.

Brad07z06 02-06-2020 04:57 AM

The Ultimax 18 and lower tuned enclosures (full and mini Marty) were awful for music. I did run them in a 5ft ported enclosure tuned to 30hz I it helped a ton a music and still played down to 20hz in my room. But since have went to dual devastator and will never look back .

ifixtheinternet 02-06-2020 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassThatHz (Post 59206550)
Are you modeling with the appropriate HPF? (ie 12db/oct @ tune.)

Do that, and the sealed might pull ahead.

This isn't my model, I just grabbed it from the martysub FAQ thread comparing the martysub to a sealed enclosure with the UM18. I was just trying to get a rough idea of where I was at between the two builds.

As I'm getting more into this project I'm realizing my goals may have been unrealistic. 10-15hz content is expensive.

I have never heard 35hz content with authority in my home, so I think if I can get great response down to around 20hz I'll be happy.

Interstellar was the final straw that pushed me to do this.
Towards the beginning of the movie some sub 20hz content makes my 12" ported sub just absolutely collapse and beg for mercy, while set at very conservative levels. I had to EQ down 20hz so much it's embarrassing.

I will say that for one subwoofer I can get a surprisingly flat response from 40 -120hz with EQ. I think I have my seating position and sub position in the best possible places. I moved the sub around the room and measured from the listening position.

I thought since my room is about 1800 cubic feet I might benefit enough from room gain to run the sealed sub. it would be easier to build, cost less, and wouldn't require the purchase of a mini DSP for a HPF. The wife would also be much more pleased with a smaller enclosure in the living room.

Just pulled the trigger on a Crown XLS 2502 today! I found such a good deal on it I couldn't pass it up.
This would definitely be enough to EQ up some low end if I wanted to do a sealed enclosure.

Now the latest question has become will putting a mini marty in my living room be horrible for music. Well I can already say that ported 12 isn't super great for music already. I usually just use the towers alone for music unless It's hop hop.
Gaining some authority for music at the same time would be a huge bonus.

I guess this is really difficult because I've stretch my budget as it is, so building the wrong enclosure and having to do it over would be a big problem. I tried finding room response calculators to give me some idea, but they were all useless.











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Green Chemist 02-07-2020 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifixtheinternet (Post 59210684)

I guess this is really difficult because I've stretch my budget as it is, so building the wrong enclosure and having to do it over would be a big problem. I tried finding room response calculators to give me some idea, but they were all useless.

This site is great for all of the information and experience it provides. But with that comes the inevitable "...but what if I do this?" If it makes you feel better my first "real" sub was a Cadence CSX-15 in my ~1700 cuft room. It was great. My first DIY sub was an elemental designs 19 Ov2 18" in a 5.5 cuft sealed box powered by an EP1500. When that died, I threw a UM-18 in that same box when they became widely available back in 2014. I've been happy with it ever since. I haven't felt like I've been missing much of anything.

Only in the last 6 months or so have I bought a MiniDSP to flatten out the frequency response in my room, and I'm now deciding what type of ported box for this driver to buy/build. 6 years later.

What I'm saying is a sealed UM-18 with enough power will probably make you quite happy for a long time. You'll have more bass in your theater than 95+% of the continental US (citation needed). And if in a year (or 6) from now if you think you want something more, you can always build another box to throw it into.

Have fun!

ifixtheinternet 02-07-2020 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad07z06 (Post 59206704)
The Ultimax 18 and lower tuned enclosures (full and mini Marty) were awful for music. I did run them in a 5ft ported enclosure tuned to 30hz I it helped a ton a music and still played down to 20hz in my room. But since have went to dual devastator and will never look back .

I'm seeing a lot of contention on this issue.
Sealed and vented subs seem to perform similar above 40hz where most music content would be, so it doesn't make a lot of sense that a ported sub couldn't be good for music.

Did you measure / EQ the response with the Marty build?
Is it possible you had a hump down low in the response?

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Vergiliusm 02-07-2020 01:49 PM

Quote:

I'm seeing a lot of contention on this issue.
There's always contention in audio. Half the fun is nit-picking over theory and then realizing most of it goes out the window in the real world. :)

The room is the dominant factor at sub frequencies and frequency response is king. Any objective measure, applicable or not(another point of contention)could be derived from the frequency response.

ifixtheinternet 02-13-2020 07:46 AM

Ok I've finally come to a decision.
I'm going to build a 4cu ft sealed enclosure.

Ultimately, a sealed enclosure would be the best of all worlds for me, as long as it gives me the SPL down low I want.

One thing I didn't mention is the best spot for the sub is corner loaded, so I already have considerable boost there.
Along with being in a small room, I think I'll get some decent room gain.

I have virtually no experience with woodworking, so I think sticking with a simple box for now is smart for me. If I'm not happy with it I can move up to a ported enclosure at some point.

The worst scenario I can imagine is going through all the trouble of building a huge ported enclosure, and then having to EQ down the low end because there's too much gain, AND having a steeper rolloff.

I grabbed a crown XLS2502 for a great deal, so I'll have plenty of headroom to EQ up the low end, at least down to 20hz.








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