Ipal21 or Eminence NSW 21"? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 02-14-2020, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Ipal21 or Eminence NSW 21"?

I've been out for a while but glad to be back. I'm trying to decide between the Ipal21 and Eminence new 21" driver. I have two sealed boxes of around 4.5-4.7cf each. I also have a Speakerpower SP4000 plate amp which does 4,000watts at 2ohm or 2,800watts at 4ohm. The Ipal21 are a little more efficient, wired for two ohms, it should get around 2,000watts per driver. On the other hand, the Eminence is easier to drive, two wired for a 3ohm load, the amp is not going to put out the power it does at 2ohm, probably around 3,000watts or so. It's quite a bit cheaper though, $600-700 for both. Help me decide, if you want to model them, tha's fine too. I realize that this drivers work best when ported but that's not possible in my living room. I do want both low/mid bass but prefer the mid-bass. These drivers mid-bass should be more than enough but still provide decent low end reponse, with eq. I'm looking for the best drivers possible for my space in order to get the best SQ/SPL.

I was thinking of perhaps including the B & C 15'/18" DS115 or Lavoce neo drivers, four each in dual opposed sub boxes. But I pretty much narrowed it down to the two options listed above, thanks in part to Ricci who adviced me to go with the Ipal21 or NSW 21". As Ricci mentioned, the drivers should do fine in sealed boxes since they have great power handling, SD/xmax and efficiency. I see that this new neo drivers are becoming more popular, PSA can not keep up with demand. I've read the tests at data-bass which seems to indicate that they are very good drivers. Thanks for your input.

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post #2 of 22 Old 02-14-2020, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way, right now I'm using four JBL GTI 15" subs in two sealed 4.5-4.7cf dual opposed boxes with the SP amp, wired at 3ohm. These are quality drivers and sound great, specially the mid-bass, the low end is good but could be a little better. These drivers do better in bigger boxes but I don't have the space. Where I think the most improvement is going to be made is in the mid-bass due to the Ipal/Eminence NSW greater sensitivity. The low bass is probably not going to be a big difference between them. These drivers are no longer made and hard to find and should sell at a good price.

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post #3 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 05:52 AM
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I have 2 NSW in Ricci's skrams. The drivers combined with his design are visceral, dynamic, clean, and pound. I was able to get 2 NSW for about 100 dollars more than 1 IPAL. The price difference VS performance difference did not seem worth it to me.

However, I'm not sure if you'll gain anything. 4.5 cubic feet sealed is not much space for either of those horn/ported purpose built drivers.

Didn't Ricci test those drivers sealed in the 6+ cubic feet sealed boxes? I'd look at the results of those tests and compare what you have now knowing those results will not be as good as what you'll get with your box that is about 2/3 the size.

There are other drivers that will work better in 4.5 cubic feet sealed, but it is your money.
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post #4 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 08:17 AM
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i think ipals do better in sealed applications from what ive seen on databass
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post #5 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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The price difference vs performance is indeed something I'm looking at. Parts Express has a sale going on now, 10% off everything, so two NSW 21" will be $1,350. On the other hand, I might be able to get two used Ipal21 for around $1,900, or a $550 difference vs the NSW. The sealed box that Ricci uses at Data-bass is 23" x 23" x 20", around 4.5cf internal. My sealed box is actually a little bigger, 22" x 22" x 24", around 4.7cf internal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like on the Data-bass, in terms of distortion, motor strenght, linearity and sensitivity, the Ipal21 is a little better, right? I don't know that I would even notice that during my home use, maybe if I push them to their limit. Also, it seems to me that the amp I have is more tailor made to drive two Ipal21 vs two NSW since it puts out a little more power at 2ohm vs 3ohm. According to Ricci, he seems to like the NSW suspension better, not as stiff. Also, is easier to drive with most 4ohm amps out there and of course, is cheaper. In terms of how they sound, they should be very similar, no? Overall, they seem to be similar to each other and better than any other pro woofer out there. Same weight, size, power handling, similar xmax, voice coil, SPL, etc.
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post #6 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 09:47 AM
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I have 2 NSW in ported with the same amp, Ive run them full out as far as the amp goes. No distortion or driver issues, I'm happy now and have 2 more to setup.. The Ipal may give a little more but all things considered it will be fairly close. If you don't care about the money then buy the Ipals. If you may buy 2 more down the road then get the NSW. This is a win win scenario no matter what you do so i wouldn't agonize over it..

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post #7 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post
Also, it seems to me that the amp I have is more tailor made to drive two Ipal21 vs two NSW since it puts out a little more power at 2ohm vs 3ohm.
Power as in watts or as in voltage? I haven't looked too closely at the speakerpower amps, though I've read only good things. I'm assuming the speakerpower amps' voltage output does well across the impedance loads and will be more than capable of driving and controlling either driver in your living room.

For me, it came down to whether or not I'd realize the difference between the potentially slightly better IPAL for almost twice the cost. Looks like you are in a similar situation. You could almost buy 3 NSW for 2 IPAL. But, it doesn't seem like there's enough room for 3... I agree with Gorilla Kills, don't think there's a wrong decision unless the 550 bucks could be spent on another driver, better room treatment, a minidsp or similar, etc.
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post #8 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I'm limited to two drivers. From what i've read, the SP amps are made to make power power than basically any other amp at 2ohms. They are great amps but not cheap. I was looking at some ot the charts at databass of both drivers. At 20hz and 4ohm, the NSW 21" was tested at 81.5V, is that around 1,660watts? The dual Ipals with the SP6000 amp were measured at 20hz and 2ohm at 95V, is that some 4,500watts? Just trying to get a feeling of the power used for them during those tests.
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post #9 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post
Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I'm limited to two drivers. From what i've read, the SP amps are made to make power power than basically any other amp at 2ohms. They are great amps but not cheap. I was looking at some ot the charts at databass of both drivers. At 20hz and 4ohm, the NSW 21" was tested at 81.5V, is that around 1,660watts? The dual Ipals with the SP6000 amp were measured at 20hz and 2ohm at 95V, is that some 4,500watts? Just trying to get a feeling of the power used for them during those tests.


Amps are typically not/non linear output devices and the resistance of the driver is going to vary across the response.

If those are the true voltages and resistances at 20hz based on measurements, then you've got it... e squared / r... your watts math looks good to me
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post #10 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by madmaxz28 View Post
i think ipals do better in sealed applications from what ive seen on databass
Not what I saw. Dual NSW would have an output advantage over the dual Ipals, but both are great, I would personaly get the NSW just because of cost.
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post #11 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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I started this thread leaning more towards the Ipal21, now, is more like 50/50. Like you guys mentioned, it's a win win situation. Eminence was tested on a bigger box vs the 21Ipal, 4.5cf vs 2.75cf per driver. My guess is that if you put the Ipal on the same size box as the NSW, it should match it if not beat it, maybe by half a db down low. Sensitivity of 99 vs 97 should give Ipal a slight advantage over the NSW, a couple of db's more in the mid-bass?
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post #12 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 11:24 AM
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A bigger box won't help the midbass, just more sensitivity down low so it would effect distortion numbers the most down there. That higher sensitivity is not really higher because it is at a lower impedance which requires more amp power. Let's put it this way, the eminence is much cheaper with a 7 year warranty and very similar performance.

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post #13 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post
I started this thread leaning more towards the Ipal21, now, is more like 50/50. Like you guys mentioned, it's a win win situation. Eminence was tested on a bigger box vs the 21Ipal, 4.5cf vs 2.75cf per driver. My guess is that if you put the Ipal on the same size box as the NSW, it should match it if not beat it, maybe by half a db down low. Sensitivity of 99 vs 97 should give Ipal a slight advantage over the NSW, a couple of db's more in the mid-bass?
That would be my thought, in a small space you may not need it. Extra headroom is always welcome though. I noticed you mentioned the Lavoce and Ds line, these are both better (Ipal and NSW).

I was going the Ipal route before the NSW came out, I needed 4 so it was even much of a decision at that point for me.

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post #14 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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MKtheater, I was not aware of the 7-year warranty for the Eminence, that's a positive. I'll see if I find the Ipal warranty.

Gorilla Killa, that's why the DS and Lavoce line were eliminated, like you said, the NSW and Ipal are better. I believe I read somewhere that you measured your two Eminence drivers at 4.5ohm and 4.7ohm? If so, lower than the 6ohm spec on the drivers. Two wired in series should be around 2.3-2.5ohm to my amp so the power output of the amp to the Ipal and the NSW might not be as big as I first thought, right? It seemed to me that the NSW that Ricci tested was closer to 5ohm? Let me know.
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post #15 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 12:56 PM
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Ipal21 or Eminence NSW 21"?

Yea the NSW is pretty much a cheap iPal that us plebeians can power.

... and afford

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post #16 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Yea the NSW is pretty much a cheap iPal that us plebeians can power.

... and afford

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Im pretty sure the VAT tax in EU f'ed the prices up. If a US company can build (for arguments sake) a identical product for almost 1/2 somethings adding to it. China could make it for $40 but they have the rare earth material market cornered.

Regardless, I agree its a good value.

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post #17 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post
MKtheater, I was not aware of the 7-year warranty for the Eminence, that's a positive. I'll see if I find the Ipal warranty.

Gorilla Killa, that's why the DS and Lavoce line were eliminated, like you said, the NSW and Ipal are better. I believe I read somewhere that you measured your two Eminence drivers at 4.5ohm and 4.7ohm? If so, lower than the 6ohm spec on the drivers. Two wired in series should be around 2.3-2.5ohm to my amp so the power output of the amp to the Ipal and the NSW might not be as big as I first thought, right? It seemed to me that the NSW that Ricci tested was closer to 5ohm? Let me know.

Its within reason and is rounded up, Eminence says 6ohm but the DCR spec is 3.8ohms and is pulled from lowest impedance close to 0hz. The Ipal for the most part is 2 ohms and up except below 20hz.

Scroll below 0-100hz and it shows what the impedance is at each frequency.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5d0b...82ae?_k=vn0ze3

I did not know of the warranty Eminence gives, kind of nice. Stirring the pot here, since you said you won't need more than 2 subs would you consider buying another amp, not saying you would need it but another sp4000 with each powering a driver would help being sealed.

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post #18 of 22 Old 02-15-2020, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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For now, I'm good with one amp, let's see how it drives the two subs.
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post #19 of 22 Old Yesterday, 05:18 AM
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Thats what I would do, you would get more headroom with the Ipals in that scenario

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post #20 of 22 Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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If I were to get another amp, one amp per sub, it would be 1ohm per amp since the Ipal21 are rated at +/- 1ohm each. I don't think that's going to work too well. I think the best option would be to sell my amp and get the SP6000 plate amp for an extra 1.5db of headroom but I don't think the price/performance ratio is worth it. Besides, Ricci used that SP6000 amp on two Ipal21 in a 5.5cf sealed box and basically pushed the drivers to their limit or very close. I have 9cf sealed space for the two drivers and 2,000 watts less power than the SP6000 amp. They have to be modeled but I have a feeling that my volume per driver (4.5cf) and power (2,000 watts) are going to be enough for the Ipal21 or NSW to reach their limit or very close, at least down low.
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post #21 of 22 Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM
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Speakerpower amps are 1 ohm stable. Luke ran a Ipal per channel for years without issue. Brian O. said it's not a problem. 20hz and up they are above 2ohms. You can put 1 on each 4000 without issues. Keep in mind the slave out speakon on the Sp amps are setup for parallel wiring when built, or t least mine was when I received it.

I wish I had my other boxes built so I could give some more info. The amp I have for it is spec'd at 3000 @ 4 ohms. still have to send it to notnyt.

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post #22 of 22 Old Yesterday, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I will look into that. Regarding the connection of the two subs, let's say I go with the Ipal21 which are 1ohm each and wire them in series for a 2ohm load to the amp. How will I connect them if I have one per box? Right now I'm using speakon connectors wired for my two dual opposed sub boxes. Will my current set up work for the two single subs, one per box?
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