I built quad ultimax minimartys and I need some help (pics included). - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone, thanks for taking the time to read my post. So as the title mentioned, I built 4 minimartys with ultimax 18's in them. I had originally planned on just buying my subs so I ran subwoofer cables and power outlets (no speaker wires) to the locations where I figured the subs would sit. I have a Marantz 7703 with sub eq and I was hoping to get by with that so I just bought inuke nu6000's. As I'm sure you all know, the inukes require a balanced connection so I used an adapter on the rca sub cables and put the inukes out in the room by the subs (I have a closet with a rack holding everything else. It's a full 7.4.4 Atmos system with emotiva amps).
I built the first two mini Martys and I was very disappointed. I felt like the floor was really high, and the ceiling was really low. I had this tiny little sliver of space where they sounded ok, but they wanted to clip right away. The limiters on the amps never lit up and it was just really weak. So I built two more. Same thing. There's a little tiny window where they sound ok, but they want to clip right away.
So I bought a minidsp 2x4 hd. I learned all about REW etc, took what seemed like thousands of measurements. Dialed in each sub, combined them, and that helped but still the same issues.
Most of the time, the subs feel like they're sloppy, hollow and aren't getting beat enough power. I have to crank every setting I can find all the way up, just to get anything out of then at all. Another thing, I tuned the boxes to 16-17Hz, but they drop off pretty hard at 30hz. I try to pro up that response through 20hz but it takes a ton of gain and sounds terrible.
So, the million dollar question, do I need to just buy a minidsp 2x4 BALANCED, bring the inukes into the closet and fish speaker wire to the subs?
I really thought the minidsp hd had a strong enough vrms output for an inuke, but it just seems super weak. I've spent a lot and put in countless hours and I just want it to sound good. With 4 ultimax, I should be able to do that I would think. I know the room does me no favors, but I really want to get this right.
Thank you for taking the time. Any feedback would be very appreciated.
*The subs are all downfiring, in the bar they're downfiring in the ends*Click image for larger version

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post #2 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:29 AM
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Will you provide some sweeps so we can see what is going on in your room.

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post #3 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:32 AM
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To clarify, you are powering the subs with RCA cables and an adapter? If so, you can test by running speaker wire to one of the subs and check it out. I expect you will have a considerable difference. I used a Marty Cube with UM18 for a bit and my house protested. Four Mini's should have decent output to around 10 hz. Also, is the crossover engaged on the inukes?
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post #4 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm sending an rca cable to the nu6000 and converting it to a balanced cable so I can plug it in to the inuke. But it's just coming from the LFE out on the Marantz.

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I took measurements on each of the four theater seats. These are after applying filters from REW with all four subs running. Sub levels in the receiver at zero. Volume at 60. The last one is the average of the four measurements.
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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These are before applying REW filters. Last one is the average.
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post #7 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a cleanbox. I only have one, but I'm going to try to put it between the minidsp and the front two subs. See what happens if I boost the signal that way
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 09:53 AM
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Just to confirm - you are 100% that the problem is the INUKE not getting enough signal? I have a MiniDSP2x4 HD, and it's impossible for me to drive the pro amp to its full power (it needs 2.25V RMS at least). But, I haven't run into a lack of SPL problem yet - so I skipped the Cleanbox pro. (used it for a while)

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post #9 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 10:17 AM
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You might also want to confirm polarity, to make sure the subs aren't working against each other and cancelling out.

Very nice looking room, I hope you get this issue sorted out.


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post #10 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not 100% sure that's the problem. It just makes sense to me that that's the problem after trying to calibrate it lots of different ways. I'm certainly not an expert though. I'm new to using REW and the minidsp but I feel comfortable with them. I guess it could be gain/level matching through the connection chain.
That's why I'm asking for help. IDK if I'm just doomed without switching to a minidsp with balanced outputs.
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post #11 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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What's the best way to check the polarity? Do I have to physically check the wiring? Or is it something I can figure out with Rew? I don't have an easy time making a positive summation when I add the rear subs to the front subs... That could be why I suppose.

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post #12 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 12:22 PM
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I'm in no way an expert, but the 7703 has XLR/balanced lfe outputs also. From what I can tell it should output 2.4V for XLR and 1.2 for RCA. Maybe try connecting directly from the 7703 to an inuke. Be careful since you obviously wouldn't have any high pass protection. That should help ID whether the problem is input voltage and if the cleanbox would help.

Just thinking out loud.
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post #13 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemunkey View Post
I'm sending an rca cable to the nu6000 and converting it to a balanced cable so I can plug it in to the inuke. But it's just coming from the LFE out on the Marantz.
That's probably half of your problem right there, the 7703 and inuke support XLR, why in the world would you use RCA and cleanboxes in this case?

Also, why are you using 50db increments on the Y-axis? That's pretty much unreadable, but from the small amount that I can determine you appear to be down 45db by 10hz, and flat-ish to 30hz.

That room is L-shaped and easily close to 5000cuft by the looks of it, so it doesn't overly surprise me that you have SPL problems.

I suggest you set the limiter to max power, and then post a screenshot of the inuke level monitors.
-10db is 1/10th power, -3db is 50% power, clipping is full-power.
Brief clipping shouldn't hurt the amplifiers if the drivers can handle it.

I would also suggest turning off any EQ in the 7703, and ensuring bass-management is enabled and that the crossover is set high-ish (80hz is a good starting point, your sweeps are to 120hz. That should be with the speakers off, don't measure them together, not initially at-least.)

4 Full-marties would be the absolute minimum in such a large space. I have almost 32 subs and 100kW of amps in only 3000cuft.
A lot of basshead vastly underestimate the amount of supporting hardware needed to reach the SPL they desire (cleanly, and without melting/overheating.)
I've fried about 9 subwoofers over the last 20 years trying to reach the SPL I want.

How far do the drivers move when playing a 25hz sinewave?
It should be able to move at least 1inch.
I know that ported boxes minimize excursion for a given SPL, but SPL below 35hz is mostly limited by excursion... (or the lack thereof).

Obviously if the woofers don't move then it won't be loud (unless you have a lot of them...)
It takes about 32 watts to push 32 18's to 1mm and about 3200watts to push 1 18 to 32mm's, and both are the same SPL...

The rule of thumb is: if you are bottoming out or clipping/overheating, then you need to quadruple the amount of subwoofer amps and cones.

I've seen 4 quad full-marties visibly move doors in a 2000cuft room.
They are legit top-shelf subs, so chances are you've done something wrong or your ipuke is DOA (Made in China. It happens.), or your a basshead living in a barn-sized room. (time for octal full-marties?)

So in summary: turn off all the goofy DSP settings you have enabled. Leaving only the 20hz 12db/oct HPF enabled, limiters off; and then post a screenshot of your inuke level monitors during a clipping event.
Once we have confirmed you don't have enough amplifier/subwooferage (and not just playing at a low SPL with goofy settings) then we can proceed.

I assume you are using a UMIK-1 to capture these sweeps. That mic is limited to 130db with the the 0dbFS dips modification (found here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-umik-1-a.html)
For most people 115-130db worth of bass should be strongly-felt.
I wouldn't recommend taking sweeps higher than 110db with the mic to leave some THD headroom.
I see you are taking sweeps at 100db, at that SPL, the bass should "just be starting" to be felt...
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post #14 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response. A couple things, the reason I'm using all this extra stuff, minidsp, cleanbox, adapters, etc is because I wired the room for consumer subs and then switched to DIY pro amps/subs. So I have 4 rca sub cables in my walls and ceilings going to the sub locations, but no balanced cables and no speaker wire to my subs. I'm just trying to avoid pulling all new wires which would require me to cut into my walls in a few places. I thought the minidsp would boost the input of inuke enough. Now I'm trying to boost it more with the cleanbox to push the amp harder.
The whole room is actually about 13,000 cu/ft. 42x32 with 10ft ceilings.
I don't understand what you mean when you wrote,
"I suggest you set the limiter to max power, and then post a screenshot of the inuke level monitors.
-10db is 1/10th power, -3db is 50% power, clipping is full-power.
Brief clipping shouldn't hurt the amplifiers if the drivers can handle it."
What are the inuke level monitors?
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemunkey View Post
What are the inuke level monitors?
The input/output meters in the Remote Connect software. Eg: http://bfssoftav.com/behringerrc.php

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post #16 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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They aren't the dsp models. I have 2 nu6000's
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post #17 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemunkey View Post
The limiters on the amps never lit up and it was just really weak. So I built two more. Same thing. There's a little tiny window where they sound ok, but they want to clip right away.
This threw me off because the non-DSP doesn't have limiters.
It probably still has a thermal safety though (and maybe... overcurrent protection.)

The cleanbox should be able to output sufficient voltage.

If you are clipping it easily then you need more system, because 13000cuft, is why.

One upgrade would be 8 24's and 8 bridged FP14k's or 4 XBS FP20k's.
That should hopefully be enough bass to cause structural damage before it hits the mechanical or electrical limits.

Another alternative would be to add 16 PA-460's in two octal-opposed boxes in your front corners, like what I run, and bring your L/R's forward about 10inches. Powered with a XBS FP20k. That would bring up your mid-bass to nuclear levels. (Those two boxes alone are 150db @ 1m @ 8kW).
You should be able to kill small animals at a distance in that configuration...

I regularly play at 15db over THX with no clipping.
In fact, this was only like 5% output.

You just need to keep adding more cones and amps. You'll get there. (Or just lower your expectations, because of WAF.)
That is just the physics of it. There is no way to cheat the laws of physics! There is no free lunch...

The uglier the system is, the louder the system is... My WAF is close to negative-infinity.

The only other solution to increase the SPL, is to sit in your bathtub and put the subs in your bathroom.
(i.e. car audio. )

Last edited by BassThatHz; 02-25-2020 at 05:02 PM.
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The uglier the system is, the louder the system is... My WAF is close to negative-infinity )
So as I get a better handle on my equipment and room, I am finding unexpected consequences. This afternoon I was watching Avengers Endgame with BEQ. My 18" subs had bottomed a couple times...oops! Wife gets home and finds her lotions broken on the floor in the upstairs master bathroom. I recovered pretty quick and lived to see another day.

I have been considering building ported boxes to help with the ulf. I don't think I NEED to though.
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post #19 of 23 Old 02-25-2020, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LGERIC View Post
So as I get a better handle on my equipment and room, I am finding unexpected consequences. This afternoon I was watching Avengers Endgame with BEQ. My 18" subs had bottomed a couple times...oops! Wife gets home and finds her lotions broken on the floor in the upstairs master bathroom. I recovered pretty quick and lived to see another day.

I have been considering building ported boxes to help with the ulf. I don't think I NEED to though.
Knocking stuff off table tops is "normal" for bassheads.

I had a comparable problem before I put my system in a dedicated building.
Back in 2009 my system was just in a "normal-person" house with wood-framing and single drywall etc etc, and even with just 9 subwoofers and 25kW it was a problem back then.

It was so bad that one couldn't even think, let alone watch TV in the room above the HT, because no matter how loud you'd turn up the TV volume you couldn't even hear it, and all drinks would go flying off the end-tables. (That was just with B&W 803's for LCR's, not even DIY/SEOS's etc.)
The footsteps above my head were also annoying, putting the HT in a dedicated building fixed that.

You'll find all sorts of new rattles that you'd never thought should be a problem...

Pictures flexing, cups flying off table tops, doors rattling even when locked with deadbolt, window glass flexing to the bass, the kitchen sink sounding like the blueman group is up in that hoe.
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post #20 of 23 Old 02-26-2020, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spacemunkey View Post
I took measurements on each of the four theater seats. These are after applying filters from REW with all four subs running. Sub levels in the receiver at zero. Volume at 60. The last one is the average of the four measurements.
Where do you have your gain knobs set?

Can you post a picture of the wiring to the drivers?

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post #21 of 23 Old 02-28-2020, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I just put the gain knobs up all the way assuming I needed to let "all the signal" through. That's assuming a weak signal is the problem.
I did add the cleanbox in after the minidsp. It actually converts an rca signal IN to a xlr OUT(or vice versa) and it has a gain knob. The reviews on amazon say people use it for this exact problem(weak lfe into a pro xlr amp). I think it really did help, but it'll only feed two of my subs. I'd need a second cleanbox to feed my rear subs. They do buzz a little when the cleanbox gain is over 60%ish.
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post #22 of 23 Old 02-28-2020, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I wired them all in series. I honestly don't remember why I wired them that way. But that's how I wired all four of them.
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-02-2020, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I went ahead and ordered the minidsp 2x4 balanced. After I tried the cleanbox
between the dsp and amp the subs REALLY came to life. Unfortunately the cleanbox can only connect to two subs at a time. So I could either buy another cleanbox, which adds quite a bit of hum, or do it right and get the balanced dsp. I have to redo quite a bit of wiring, but I'll post again after i get it all set up.
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