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post #31 of 87 Old 03-14-2020, 04:09 PM
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Chris and others have given you some good advice.

Before you go further, I recommend you spend some time answering the questions in https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...e-posting.html, as they apply to the DIY realm as well. Read them and answer honestly.

YouTube videos don't really cut it around here. Be specific in what you're looking for (including budget, max size, etc.). Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a lot of nothing (or questions that could have already been answered).

I recommend reading through some of the existing build threads to familiarize yourself with DIY. When you have specific questions this is a great community to call on.

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post #32 of 87 Old 03-14-2020, 11:09 PM
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Most of the stuff written by ML on their sub is simply BS. The balanced force junk. Ugh. Dual opposed don't cancel cabinet vibrations. Vibrations on the cabinet are caused by 2 things; the pressure difference from the woofer moving in & out, and the mass of the speaker moving in and out. Dual opposed cancels out the mass movement vibes, but doesn't do anything for the pressure vibes. Make sense?

Commercial units tend to be sub-par components, or decent (at best) but their implementation tends to be very very good. DIY tends to be far more capable but a lot of us struggle with appropriate implementation. Bottom line is that it's going to be very easy to exceed the performance of the ML sub, but you're going to have to learn how to adjust and correct in-room response to see a night and day difference. I'm talking no BS, no emperor's new clothes, etc.

As to how to beat the ML's performance... where to start. Bigger/better cones. Proper room eq. A big honking amplifier. DSP to allow you to dial things in. It's a long road. A simple sealed UM18 should kill it on every level once eq'd and dialed in.

Chris
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post #33 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 12:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post

As to how to beat the ML's performance... where to start. Bigger/better cones. Proper room eq. A big honking amplifier. DSP to allow you to dial things in. It's a long road. A simple sealed UM18 should kill it on every level once eq'd and dialed in.

Chris
Yep I've been looking into just that thanks.

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post #34 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Chris and others have given you some good advice.

Before you go further, I recommend you spend some time answering the questions in https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...e-posting.html, as they apply to the DIY realm as well. Read them and answer honestly.

YouTube videos don't really cut it around here. Be specific in what you're looking for (including budget, max size, etc.). Otherwise, you're setting yourself up for a lot of nothing (or questions that could have already been answered).

I recommend reading through some of the existing build threads to familiarize yourself with DIY. When you have specific questions this is a great community to call on.
Thanks, I've started reading that thread, as time allows 'ill read as much as I can before getting started.

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post #35 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 12:52 AM - Thread Starter
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So basically here are the requirements:

1, Budget: no real constraints however it would be nice to top out at around $1200.00 for the first one including shipping.
2, Size: It's a black cave dedicated room so as long as I don't see the sub in front of the screen its fine. I don't want 2m tall towers but up to 1m in size is the max however I can lay them flat on either side of the room so perhaps up to 1.5 meter. I am in Europe now hence I am using meters. If its an issue I'll convert
3, Room size is 52 cubic meter or 1800ish cubic feet
4, Primary uses: I'd say 80% movies and 10-10% music and games however I do love my music so looking for something that is suitable.
5, Listening habits: Sometimes I go nuts at reference levels but most of the time I listen at around -20 db and often lower and I love to hear and feel the low notes even at those lower levels.
6, Appearance requirements: not so important however if it looks good why not but again it's pitch dark in there.
7, Time frame: I am only starting to look into it so probably will be ordering parts in a few weeks time once I worked out what to.

Cheers

Andrew

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post #36 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 07:15 AM
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So basically here are the requirements:

1, Budget: no real constraints however it would be nice to top out at around $1200.00 for the first one including shipping.
Do you have the ability to locate the amp in another room? They are quite loud.

If you are handy with regards to woodworking, You can build cabs for the Lavoce 21" sub

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post #37 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Do you have the ability to locate the amp in another room? They are quite loud.

If you are handy with regards to woodworking, You can build cabs for the Lavoce 21" sub
This is pretty much what I was looking at as well here:
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/300-7094.html

I am fine to do the woodwork so good savings there and if i needed help a full on carpentry is next door who can just do it for me.

I am in Europe.

As for the fan I can replace it with silent one no issues there.

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post #38 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:02 AM
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Jumping into DIY takes a lot of trust you just cannot go to the local electronics store and listen. I was on the fence as far as what to do and finally made the jump and have not looked back. If you have the time look at this site:
https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=fp0hxl
This will give you an idea of what some of the different subs are capable of. I found this site very helpful. A word of warning this can get very addictive and expensive since most here will say 1 sub is never enough. I started with one now I have 8 YUCK!!
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post #39 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
Jumping into DIY takes a lot of trust you just cannot go to the local electronics store and listen. I was on the fence as far as what to do and finally made the jump and have not looked back. If you have the time look at this site:
https://data-bass.com/#/?_k=fp0hxl
This will give you an idea of what some of the different subs are capable of. I found this site very helpful. A word of warning this can get very addictive and expensive since most here will say 1 sub is never enough. I started with one now I have 8 YUCK!!
Thanks and yes perfectly aware of the addiction and partly that is why I am doing as for now I can't improve the sound further as is I love to tinker and keep working on it. this is the next logical step forward. Getting one sub built and then keep going. If I sold my ML sub I could easily build two for the $$.

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post #40 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
This is pretty much what I was looking at as well here:
https://www.soundimports.eu/en/300-7094.html

I am fine to do the woodwork so good savings there and if i needed help a full on carpentry is next door who can just do it for me.

I am in Europe.

As for the fan I can replace it with silent one no issues there.
That is a great option as well. Would you ever be interested in a 21" driver?

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post #41 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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That is a great option as well. Would you ever be interested in a 21" driver?
As long as its tight and musical sure.

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post #42 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:15 AM
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As long as its tight and musical sure.
Then I would certainly recommend you to consider the B&C 21ds115 and the LaVoce SAN214.50. I would think both are available through the online vendor you linked to earlier.
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post #43 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Then I would certainly recommend you to consider the B&C 21ds115 and the LaVoce SAN214.50. I would think both are available through the online vendor you linked to earlier.
OK thanks. So to summarize.
21"Lavoce, miniDSP HD, DIY enclosure, inuke6000, anything else?
Is there a link to an enclosure plan and material requirements for the 21"?

Thanks

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post #44 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 10:19 AM
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As long as its tight and musical sure.


Tight and musical aren’t real things. I’m telling you, the second you build a big sub and turn it on you will be disappointed, mostly because you’ll excite a room mode with the new extension you’ll have over the 12’s and will need to DSP it down.

One thing these pro 21’s have over just about any other “home sub” is their massive amounts of headroom for mid bass. If you didn’t want ULF and kept them in the mid 30’s you’d probably be tickled pink.


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post #45 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Tight and musical aren’t real things. I’m telling you, the second you build a big sub and turn it on you will be disappointed, mostly because you’ll excite a room mode with the new extension you’ll have over the 12’s and will need to DSP it down.

One thing these pro 21’s have over just about any other “home sub” is their massive amounts of headroom for mid bass. If you didn’t want ULF and kept them in the mid 30’s you’d probably be tickled pink.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am aware of that I need to EQ them in nicely so no disappointment there and thanks for the warning! Mid bass is good I need that slam as well as lowdown I can feel. As for music I can create a 2nd setup in the processor and just use the mains for that as they go down to 35hz if I really wanted to but of course it would be nice if the sub played music well.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #46 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 11:57 AM
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I am aware of that I need to EQ them in nicely so no disappointment there and thanks for the warning! Mid bass is good I need that slam as well as lowdown I can feel. As for music I can create a 2nd setup in the processor and just use the mains for that as they go down to 35hz if I really wanted to but of course it would be nice if the sub played music well.
I have decent extension to the 40's with my mains but I couldn't imagine listening to music without my subs.
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post #47 of 87 Old 03-15-2020, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I have decent extension to the 40's with my mains but I couldn't imagine listening to music without my subs.
Yes that's why I asked upfront in the first post if a DIY can match my current one as it's outstanding for music.

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post #48 of 87 Old 05-06-2020, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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soo I decided to build the Hammer as the first one:


I had the woodwork cut next door in a few hours which was really handy but there was little hiccup as I followed the wrong cut sheet on the video but it was easily corrected by a couple of new pieces.

The assembly is nearly done and awaiting the electronics to arrive hopefully before the weekend.

Behringer NX3000
Mini DSP HD
Ultimax 12"
and the all the little bits.

I'll see how it sounds and if I like it I will add another or another 3, not sure yet. If I am not entirely happy I most likely will upgrade to an 18" version.

Also ordered Duratex and wondering if I could apply some clear coat on top to give it a nice glossy finish. Anyone had any experience/success with that yet?

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #49 of 87 Old 05-06-2020, 11:16 AM
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soo I decided to build the Hammer as the first one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLBSZKdoQ5c&t=549s

I had the woodwork cut next door in a few hours which was really handy but there was little hiccup as I followed the wrong cut sheet on the video but it was easily corrected by a couple of new pieces.

The assembly is nearly done and awaiting the electronics to arrive hopefully before the weekend.

Behringer NX3000
Mini DSP HD
Ultimax 12"
and the all the little bits.

I'll see how it sounds and if I like it I will add another or another 3, not sure yet. If I am not entirely happy I most likely will upgrade to an 18" version.

Also ordered Duratex and wondering if I could apply some clear coat on top to give it a nice glossy finish. Anyone had any experience/success with that yet?
Its a good starting point. The ported alignment will be louder at the port tune versus the dual opposed sealed sub but the opposed will be better in most other categories. If you are already considering the 18 i'd just go with the 18 honestly. I think you are on the right path though, the UM12 is still capable for being a 12" sub.

As for Duratex I'm not sure what would be usefull as a clear coat. Eng-399 does some awesome paint jobs using duratex and gets a VERY flat finish with it.
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post #50 of 87 Old 05-06-2020, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Its a good starting point. The ported alignment will be louder at the port tune versus the dual opposed sealed sub but the opposed will be better in most other categories. If you are already considering the 18 i'd just go with the 18 honestly. I think you are on the right path though, the UM12 is still capable for being a 12" sub.

As for Duratex I'm not sure what would be usefull as a clear coat. Eng-399 does some awesome paint jobs using duratex and gets a VERY flat finish with it.
Thanks, the first one is nearly done so not changing plans for now but I figured I can't have four 18s in the room nor I want to build a power station for the room so see how 2x12" fairs and go from there, I really don't need reference loudness I just need low to mid volume room filling accurate tight bass. I though hard about it and I realized I don't normally go beyond -20-15db and most of the time I listen at -25 so those 12s should fill the room nicely but we'll see soon enough. The Martin Logan are stunning subs but one just wasn't enough, two of those would have been a different story however they are stupidly expensive hence the DIY path. I am enjoying the build and the journey very much so far. I am not expecting this sub to be as accurate or tight as the ML so my expectation are not set very high to avoid disappointment.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #51 of 87 Old 05-07-2020, 07:24 PM
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Thank you. However the ML is very precise tight and stunning for music as well. That's why I am asking if any DIY can possibly be a good match. If so could you please let me know of some recommended kit?

Cheers
Most preferred drivers used in DIY kits have a far stronger motor and lower distortion that any 12" regardless of manufacturer. Bass being tighter or faster with small cones is a myth. Properly built, any of the common DIY builds here will sound cleaner and tighter due to the power to weight ratio of motor to cone weight. A 21" pro driver will sound better at any volume level than a 12" martin Logan sub as will any of the better 15 and 18" models.

Small cones have to move too far to create any meaningful output in the deep bass and the farther the cone moves, the more distortion the system makes.
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post #52 of 87 Old 05-07-2020, 08:08 PM
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nor I want to build a power station for the room
Larger drivers are generally more efficient than smaller drivers in a given application.

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post #53 of 87 Old 05-08-2020, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Most preferred drivers used in DIY kits have a far stronger motor and lower distortion that any 12" regardless of manufacturer. Bass being tighter or faster with small cones is a myth. Properly built, any of the common DIY builds here will sound cleaner and tighter due to the power to weight ratio of motor to cone weight. A 21" pro driver will sound better at any volume level than a 12" martin Logan sub as will any of the better 15 and 18" models.

Small cones have to move too far to create any meaningful output in the deep bass and the farther the cone moves, the more distortion the system makes.
The ML was 10" dual only not 12". I am itching to find out what this 12" can do but aas I said I set my expectations low.

I would have finished the first one but due to the pandemic one of the parcels (the woofer of course) is stuck in transit. arghh
Behringer and MiniDSP arrived this arvo.
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JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297

Last edited by Bandyka; 05-08-2020 at 09:39 AM.
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post #54 of 87 Old 05-08-2020, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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This where I am up to so far:



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JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #55 of 87 Old 05-08-2020, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Just realised the hammer I am building is in the next thread

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #56 of 87 Old 05-08-2020, 04:28 PM
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This where I am up to so far:
Whats going on with the mix of materials being used? Why not all MDF?

Whats the white stuff, is that melamine?

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post #57 of 87 Old 05-08-2020, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Whats going on with the mix of materials being used? Why not all MDF?

Whats the white stuff, is that melamine?
Was expecting the question

Its all MDF, the joinery that cut the sheets only has this in stock and I didn't want to wait for them to order the plain one, its the same stuff as the normal MDF but one side has a white coat on it so its easier to paint that's all. All of the joints were bare MDF to ensure the glue stuck properly. All of them were laser precision cut.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #58 of 87 Old 05-13-2020, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Some progress:




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JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #59 of 87 Old 05-15-2020, 01:40 AM - Thread Starter
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OK done!

So last night I was able to finish the build and do the first round of setup. Applied a 17hz high pass in miniDSP, did a little EQ-ing, created a house curve and used ARC genesis to top it all off. The result is not bad at first go. As mentioned I went in with low expectations and it definitely surpassed them by a nice margin. Down low it definitely hits harder than the ML did, for music its not as precise but close, I occasionally hear some port noise which requires more testing to isolate but its no deal breaker.
Overall I am very pleased it was definitely worth the effort and I really enjoyed the journey building it.
Now I am ready to add a 2nd one to smooth the response as there are some dips I don't think I can get rid of however the rabbit whole goes deep and of course now I am thinking to do a 15 or 18" version. Saying that I am glad I went with an existing design to take the guess work out of the modelling process, all went smooth and worked perfectly at the first turn of the key.
Well done Steve with the design.

One thing I wanted to mention was that I used foam to line the inside as fiberglass particles are rather unhealthy in a "breathing" ported sub so wouldn't openly recommend.

Used Duratex with a spray gun and it worked quite well creating nice smooth finish. For the next one I will attempt to apply a gloss coat on top.
For a first DIY sub its a definite thumbs up! I am a believer now.






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JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #60 of 87 Old 05-15-2020, 03:57 PM
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OK done!

So last night I was able to finish the build and do the first round of setup. Applied a 17hz high pass in miniDSP, did a little EQ-ing, created a house curve and used ARC genesis to top it all off. The result is not bad at first go. As mentioned I went in with low expectations and it definitely surpassed them by a nice margin. Down low it definitely hits harder than the ML did, for music its not as precise but close, I occasionally hear some port noise which requires more testing to isolate but its no deal breaker.
Overall I am very pleased it was definitely worth the effort and I really enjoyed the journey building it.
Now I am ready to add a 2nd one to smooth the response as there are some dips I don't think I can get rid of however the rabbit whole goes deep and of course now I am thinking to do a 15 or 18" version. Saying that I am glad I went with an existing design to take the guess work out of the modelling process, all went smooth and worked perfectly at the first turn of the key.
Well done Steve with the design.

One thing I wanted to mention was that I used foam to line the inside as fiberglass particles are rather unhealthy in a "breathing" ported sub so wouldn't openly recommend.

Used Duratex with a spray gun and it worked quite well creating nice smooth finish. For the next one I will attempt to apply a gloss coat on top.
For a first DIY sub its a definite thumbs up! I am a believer now.
Looking really good dude.

On the next one, you should put a roundover on the ports internally that will help reduce chuffing a lot with a smooth air transition. You should also think about doing them on the exit too if you have enough material, even a small roundover there will help a bit.

Maybe add another panel of bracing inside too.

And yeah, I would say skip another 12 and go right for an 18. Since you will be going to the effort to build it, may as well get the size right. If I were you, I would build someting with a pro woofer in it next, they will be much better for cone control.

At least you got your fingers dirty, the more you do, the easier it gets and then the hobby takes on a new form. Its very rewarding hearing great sound come from things you have made.

I designed an 18" the other day which I will potentially be building for Paul, and possibly myself.

7cf about 200litre. 750H/500W/650D (mm)



This has a faital pro subwoofer in it, which would have absolutely vicious midbass and still extend pretty low, you can also plug the port to get a ~16.5hz tune. The main tune is 24hz.

These should be considerably better than an Ultimax for music if thats your thing, and you will find these drivers in cinemas, so they will have plenty of bass. They are really sensitive, so ULF output would end up pretty similar to an Ultimax anyway after some tweaking.

They are 8 ohms, so you could run two for 4ohm load and sent 1kw to them and they will be louder than you need. Very easy to drive.

https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF...p?id=201070155

Without highpass, box native response,



Highpass to protect drivers 1hz below tuning. This gives you an ideal M shaped cone travel graph for above and below tuning. With the 24hz tune both ports open you could throw almost 2kw at each of these drivers and not hit Xmax, the ports may start chuffing at near that level though, but it would be within limits.

If you plug the port you can throw about 1kw at each driver before xmax. But if you build just one and put it in a room with room gain, it will likely give you just about enough output for full reference levels including bass management to all speakers in an atmos system.

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JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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Last edited by Javs; 05-15-2020 at 04:05 PM.
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