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post #61 of 121 Old 05-16-2020, 11:38 PM - Thread Starter
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@Javs

Thanks man, interesting. Its a good size as well. I'll look into it but it would be tricky to integrate with the current one if I built it as the 2nd sub due to the tuning frequency difference? I really like to bottom end response of the the hammer.

I was just going to say that after dialing the Hammer in I am very pleased with it. Just watched Blade Runner 2049 as a test and it was very tight accurate, it hits hard and shakes the seat just right, I am thinking 2 or 4 of these would be more than enough. Music is also fine not as accurate as the ML was but I can easily live with it. The port noise is gone I think I only heard it during the setup phase and it was just below tuning frequency.

The only thing that bugs me a little is a bit of ground loop noise.
I had to crank up the iNuke to about 75% on channel one and also add 5db boost in the miniDSP to bring it up to 75db to match the system and the humming noise is noticeable at that level. So any advice on that would be great.
Otherwise so far I am very happy , will do a week or so more listening and decide on the next build.

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post #62 of 121 Old 05-17-2020, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
@Javs

Thanks man, interesting. Its a good size as well. I'll look into it but it would be tricky to integrate with the current one if I built it as the 2nd sub due to the tuning frequency difference? I really like to bottom end response of the the hammer.

I was just going to say that after dialing the Hammer in I am very pleased with it. Just watched Blade Runner 2049 as a test and it was very tight accurate, it hits hard and shakes the seat just right, I am thinking 2 or 4 of these would be more than enough. Music is also fine not as accurate as the ML was but I can easily live with it. The port noise is gone I think I only heard it during the setup phase and it was just below tuning frequency.

The only thing that bugs me a little is a bit of ground loop noise.
I had to crank up the iNuke to about 75% on channel one and also add 5db boost in the miniDSP to bring it up to 75db to match the system and the humming noise is noticeable at that level. So any advice on that would be great.
Otherwise so far I am very happy , will do a week or so more listening and decide on the next build.
There is no issue at all with blending subs with different port tuning, but of course thats up to you... If you try and blend sealed with ported thats a bit more difficult.

Im not sure about the ground look issue that sounds a bit odd. Make sure the USB is not connected to anything on the minidsp during listening, that can cause a ground loop in my system.

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post #63 of 121 Old 05-17-2020, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
There is no issue at all with blending subs with different port tuning, but of course thats up to you... If you try and blend sealed with ported thats a bit more difficult.

Im not sure about the ground look issue that sounds a bit odd. Make sure the USB is not connected to anything on the minidsp during listening, that can cause a ground loop in my system.
Yeah the miniDSP is causing a digital noise as well but that's different, once unplugged its gone but this is different noise, if I unplug the speakon cable from the Behringer it stops.

OK I am about to decide on the next sub as I am keen to start so I'll chat to you shortly.

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post #64 of 121 Old 05-17-2020, 11:16 PM
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Yeah the miniDSP is causing a digital noise as well but that's different, once unplugged its gone but this is different noise, if I unplug the speakon cable from the Behringer it stops.



OK I am about to decide on the next sub as I am keen to start so I'll chat to you shortly.
Go big.

Just do it.

Use the driver I recommended you can probably even get one cheaper than the ultimax and it's a better sub, you will probably still get 11hz in your room easy even though the tuning is higher, don't discount what room gain does. The graphs are what the subs would do in a field.

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post #65 of 121 Old 05-18-2020, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Go big.

Just do it.

Use the driver I recommended you can probably even get one cheaper than the ultimax and it's a better sub, you will probably still get 11hz in your room easy even though the tuning is higher, don't discount what room gain does. The graphs are what the subs would do in a field.

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Yes I get that thanks. So can you supply me with a cut sheet?
I am just about to order and the 12" is out of stock so...

A window was about to crack in the room next to the cinema when playing BL 2049 at -20db so yeah room gain does help Checked out the shotgun scene in John Wick 3 and it was awesome, much punchier then with the ML sub so I really don't need more than the 12" but I am 100% sure it would always be in the back of my head what if so i'll see where I can get the 18" around here.

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post #66 of 121 Old 05-19-2020, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
@Javs

I really like to bottom end response of the the hammer.

I was just going to say that after dialing the Hammer in I am very pleased with it. Just watched Blade Runner 2049 as a test and it was very tight accurate, it hits hard and shakes the seat just right, I am thinking 2 or 4 of these would be more than enough.
So It sounds like it's living up to its name!
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post #67 of 121 Old 05-19-2020, 11:14 AM
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There is no issue at all with blending subs with different port tuning, but of course thats up to you... If you try and blend sealed with ported thats a bit more difficult.

.
That's not really accurate. difficulty wise, Blending sealed and ported is the same same as blending ported with different tunings. The issue is there's a phase shift at tuning that's not present at the same frequency in the subs your aligning too. So in theory it's easier to blend a ported and sealed as you only have one phase shift vs blending ported with different tuning frequencies that have shifts close where there's still output below the HPF but not at the same frequency.

People often say you can't mix that with this but don't know why. Thats why. If you measure to align the subs , which you have to as really that's the only way, it's doable.

Of course the easiest alignment is using identical subs, followed by mixing sealed with ported.
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post #68 of 121 Old 05-19-2020, 03:53 PM
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That's not really accurate. difficulty wise, Blending sealed and ported is the same same as blending ported with different tunings. The issue is there's a phase shift at tuning that's not present at the same frequency in the subs your aligning too. So in theory it's easier to blend a ported and sealed as you only have one phase shift vs blending ported with different tuning frequencies that have shifts close where there's still output below the HPF but not at the same frequency.

People often say you can't mix that with this but don't know why. Thats why. If you measure to align the subs , which you have to as really that's the only way, it's doable.

Of course the easiest alignment is using identical subs, followed by mixing sealed with ported.
Well that's easy to model too. Not much of an issue here. I see your point on sealed though, interesting.

People are doing that every day with mains which reach 60 or 80hz ported to 45hz and pairing with a sub which tunes at 20hz or whatever. If one aligns them properly then you can mitigate it.

These 3 designs (one is yours I believe) are all within 30degrees anyway.



Can I ask you something, why did you allow the first port resonance so low on your design?


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post #69 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Gents so I decided to pair the Hammer with Javs' recommendation. Starting the build shortly. It will be very interesting how the two will integrate but I am sure I will have fun with the process.

The hammer is great and more than enough but if I don't try going big it will always be in the back of mind "what if".
So if it works out I might end up with 2 Hammers and two Javs's design and sure with that firepower I will get the ultimate in bass quality.

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post #70 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 04:57 AM
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Gents so I decided to pair the Hammer with Javs' recommendation. Starting the build shortly. It will be very interesting how the two will integrate but I am sure I will have fun with the process.

The hammer is great and more than enough but if I don't try going big it will always be in the back of mind "what if".
So if it works out I might end up with 2 Hammers and two Javs's design and sure with that firepower I will get the ultimate in bass quality.
Great! Once you experience an 18" subwoofer, ditch it and move up to a 21" pro driver You'd be well on your way to full on Bass Addict

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post #71 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Great! Once you experience an 18" subwoofer, ditch it and move up to a 21" pro driver You'd be well on your way to full on Bass Addict
Hehe yeah, nope, I would be very happy with a pair of the Hammer as well but I enjoy the build and experimentation.

I am genuinely worried about structural damage

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post #72 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 11:56 AM
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Well that's easy to model too. Not much of an issue here. I see your point on sealed though, interesting.

People are doing that every day with mains which reach 60 or 80hz ported to 45hz and pairing with a sub which tunes at 20hz or whatever. If one aligns them properly then you can mitigate it.

These 3 designs (one is yours I believe) are all within 30degrees anyway.



Can I ask you something, why did you allow the first port resonance so low on your design?

My port resonance was like 180hz well high enough to ensure there's no issues with LFE or bass management.
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post #73 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 11:59 AM
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Hehe yeah, nope, I would be very happy with a pair of the Hammer as well but I enjoy the build and experimentation.

I am genuinely worried about structural damage
Definitely try going big. I mean I've had 4 fridges in my last theater. I was going to do 4 hammers in the new one as I know I'd have more ouput to 20hz than I need but now I'm doing 2 devs It's a sickness but fun. Of course I will have 4 Hammers in the living room . Especially if you're curious to try it may as well.
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post #74 of 121 Old 05-20-2020, 03:55 PM
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Hehe yeah, nope, I would be very happy with a pair of the Hammer as well but I enjoy the build and experimentation.

I am genuinely worried about structural damage

Well I enjoyed sealed 18’s, and decided to upgrade to ported 21’s. I also have 5 18’s that I’ll use somewhere down the road.


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post #75 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 02:15 AM
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Down low it definitely hits harder than the ML did, for music its not as precise but close
Accuracy is often blamed when EQ can fix the problem. Often a lowering of the 100-300hz range improves what is perceived as detail by reducing muddiness. It's worth a shot to try a single PEQ at 200hz -2db or so with a wide enough q to lower the range from 100hz to 300hz. Try it and see how it sounds.

Your box looks great.
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Great! Once you experience an 18" subwoofer, ditch it and move up to a 21" pro driver You'd be well on your way to full on Bass Addict
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Hehe yeah, nope, I would be very happy with a pair of the Hammer as well
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Definitely try going big. I mean I've had 4 fridges in my last theater.
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Well I enjoyed sealed 18’s, and decided to upgrade to ported 21’s.
Seeee

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post #77 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Seeee
Yeah I see the addiction definitely Do I need that much firepower? Definitely not Am I happy with a single hammer in the MLP? Hell yeah, will I be thrilled when the Faital sub is added? I'll be smiling all the way for sure. Good problems to have.
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“Firepower” is dependent on your usage to be honest. I have enough firepower from a single NX3000 to power both and hit my goals. The reason I did upgrade was to solve a few problems and maybe get the ability to wake my neighbors. I use two bridges MX3000d’s to power them and that’s mostly for DSP correction headroom.

But really, I solved a midbass issue and extended my ULF with this upgrade and there was a cheaper way of doing it but the NSW’s are flipping awesome for the price.


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post #79 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 09:31 AM
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“Firepower” is dependent on your usage to be honest. I have enough firepower from a single NX3000 to power both and hit my goals. The reason I did upgrade was to solve a few problems and maybe get the ability to wake my neighbors. I use two bridges MX3000d’s to power them and that’s mostly for DSP correction headroom.

But really, I solved a midbass issue and extended my ULF with this upgrade and there was a cheaper way of doing it but the NSW’s are flipping awesome for the price.


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What did you have before the NSW's?

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Yes I am building the 2nd sub to smooth the response and have seat to seat consistency otherwise a single one is perfectly fine. A single 3000NX will be enough, at my listening levels so far the max power drawn was 305 watts and it was window cracking loud.

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What did you have before the NSW's?
UM18's and DIYSG Magnum 12's, both drivers I plan on keeping and using for future projects.
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post #82 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 01:03 PM
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Dude, I sure hope you know what you're getting yourself into...There's a sickness around these parts Down the Rabbit hole you go
Pretty sure it's too late for him
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post #83 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 01:04 PM
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Yeah I see the addiction definitely Do I need that much firepower? Definitely not Am I happy with a single hammer in the MLP? Hell yeah, will I be thrilled when the Faital sub is added? I'll be smiling all the way for sure. Good problems to have.
I sent you a message!
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post #84 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I sent you a message!
Replied!

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post #85 of 121 Old 05-21-2020, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Pretty sure it's too later for him
well we will see after the 2nd build if I will want to do any more

one thing I can share is that today I was testing paint jobs on a piece of MDF already as I couldn't wait for the new parts to arrive
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EPSON TW-9300 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, DIY Subs 18" 24hz tune and 12" 17hz tune Panasonic UB900, HTPC, etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post50298297
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post #86 of 121 Old 05-22-2020, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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OK soo its time for a little review on THE Hammer which I will post on the original Hammer build thread as well.

So I've been contemplating for a long time whether to purchase a second Martin Logan Balanced Force sub as the one 210 just wasn't enough no matter how clean and tight it was.

I've been looking for advice on this forum and received some really good ones but generally advising to go large and multiple subs, which is fair enough as we all want the best bass however I felt I don't really need a commercial cinema at this point, I just wanted to start safe and relatively easy. I am a busy professional and don't have much spare time at the moment so I was looking for a relatively easy path with a ready made cut sheet and parts readily available and easy to order to Europe where I currently reside.

I started to watch @cdy2179 's channel on youtube and found that his design and explanations were the most straight forward and easiest to understand. Naturally I wanted to learn WinISD to design my own sub but the lack of time just wouldn't allow so I got excited when Steve got to design The Hammer. This was pretty much what I needed to quickly get into building my first DIY sub. He just made it very simple by providing a cut sheet and even detailed video build instructions.

So I got to it ordered the parts from Soundimports in the EU.

This is what I ordered:

Behringer 3000NX
MiniDSP 2x4 HD
Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax subwoofer
Duratex paint
Cables and bits

The build process of the enclosure took me about a week to complete, I used clamps and extra strong glue to ensure rigidity and always allowed enough time for the glue to set (about a day after each step) as I didn't want anything to get lose causing vibrations or leaks.

One thing I need to mention is DO not cut the baffle holes until you receive your driver as the manufacturers baffle cutout numbers are incorrect on the website (at least they were on Soundimports) but luckily they were smaller so I could just enlarge the cutout when the woofer arrived.

For the paint job I decided to use a spray gun for the Duratex but it's very thick so I added approx 5% of water and it worked really well. Sprayed on 3 or 4 coats and that was it. It looked great. Next time I will sand more of the MDF surfaces along the joints and seal them more evenly as some joints are visible if you look hard but there are no leaks and can't be seen in the cinema whatsoever.

So all was ready to install the woofer and line the inside of the box with some insulation ( I do not use fiberglass as it is a breathing ported sub so I don't want nasty particles floating around in the room).

Set up.

I wasn't expecting much from a 12" DIY sub so I went in with low expectations.

Plugged it all in and it worked perfectly for the first time. Note I used a cable tester as well to ensure all connections were done well.

The first thing I noticed was that the Behringer needed to be cranked up to near max to allow for 75 db levels and I also had to boost about 5 db in the miniDSP. Later I settled on about 75% and + 5db in the miniDSP and sub level 0 in the AVR.

Raw response was pretty good but it all felt lose. I placed a filter at 17hz to protect the driver, used REW and the miniDSP to dial it all in and integrate with the mains then ran Anthem's ARC Genesis and also created a house curve to allow for a slight rise in response from about 70hz down to 20hz. I was able to EQ it in very nicely using the miniDSP.

I was hugely surprised by what I experienced once it was all set up, the response is tight and powerful, I don't listen at reference levels much but even at my normal listening levels at -15-20 db it sounds excellent. I was worried that it might not sound as tight and composed as the Martin Logan sub did but it not only does sounds as good but exceeds it in almost every way. The ML had to be crancked up high to get acceptable bass but The Hammer just provides that efficient effortless ULF response that I've been missing for a long time, and the great thing about it is that I don't need to crank up the volume sky high to experince it. Of coourse if I crank it gets even better. Mid bass is excellent as well the shutgun shots in John Wick 3 never sounded this good and the chest kick is there and nicely pronounced.
After watching Blade Runner 2049 I checked the walls for cracks as I heard a window next door complaining which I never heard before with the previous sub. It handled all I threw at it very well.
I was worried about music that it may not be as tight as the ML was and I am relieved to hear that it is not the case, while it is not quite as composed as the ML sub it's perfectly acceptable.

...and all of this at a fraction of the price of the ML is quite a bargain. Adding a second Hammer would be much less $$ as the electronics are already there. I could easily build three or four hammers on the price of one ML I had, its an absolute no brainer.

Also checked for power usage and I was rather surprised to find how efficient it is. The max it drew during my tests was 305watts and 4.5 amps.

Overall I am very satisfied with this sub and can only recommend to anyone looking to get into the DIY space with a first easy build. I need to stress though, thorough build and setup is crucial for it to work well, do your homework in that regard otherwise you may get disappointed.

Excellent job Steve well done!

Next build is an 18" sub based on @Javs recommendation and design but that will be a different beast.
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EPSON TW-9300 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, DIY Subs 18" 24hz tune and 12" 17hz tune Panasonic UB900, HTPC, etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post50298297
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post #87 of 121 Old 05-22-2020, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
OK soo its time for a little review on THE Hammer which I will post on the original Hammer build thread as well.

So I've been contemplating for a long time whether to purchase a second Martin Logan Balanced Force sub as the one 210 just wasn't enough no matter how clean and tight it was.

I've been looking for advice on this forum and received some really good ones but generally advising to go large and multiple subs, which is fair enough as we all want the best bass however I felt I don't really need a commercial cinema at this point, I just wanted to start safe and relatively easy. I am a busy professional and don't have much spare time at the moment so I was looking for a relatively easy path with a ready made cut sheet and parts readily available and easy to order to Europe where I currently reside.

I started to watch @cdy2179 's channel on youtube and found that his design and explanations were the most straight forward and easiest to understand. Naturally I wanted to learn WinISD to design my own sub but the lack of time just wouldn't allow so I got excited when Steve got to design The Hammer. This was pretty much what I needed to quickly get into building my first DIY sub. He just made it very simple by providing a cut sheet and even detailed video build instructions.

So I got to it ordered the parts from Soundimports in the EU.

This is what I ordered:

Behringer 3000NX
MiniDSP 2x4 HD
Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax subwoofer
Duratex paint
Cables and bits

The build process of the enclosure took me about a week to complete, I used clamps and extra strong glue to ensure rigidity and always allowed enough time for the glue to set (about a day after each step) as I didn't want anything to get lose causing vibrations or leaks.

One thing I need to mention is DO not cut the baffle holes until you receive your driver as the manufacturers baffle cutout numbers are incorrect on the website (at least they were on Soundimports) but luckily they were smaller so I could just enlarge the cutout when the woofer arrived.

For the paint job I decided to use a spray gun for the Duratex but it's very thick so I added approx 5% of water and it worked really well. Sprayed on 3 or 4 coats and that was it. It looked great. Next time I will sand more of the MDF surfaces along the joints and seal them more evenly as some joints are visible if you look hard but there are no leaks and can't be seen in the cinema whatsoever.

So all was ready to install the woofer and line the inside of the box with some insulation ( I do not use fiberglass as it is a breathing ported sub so I don't want nasty particles floating around in the room).

Set up.

I wasn't expecting much from a 12" DIY sub so I went in with low expectations.

Plugged it all in and it worked perfectly for the first time. Note I used a cable tester as well to ensure all connections were done well.

The first thing I noticed was that the Behringer needed to be cranked up to near max to allow for 75 db levels and I also had to boost about 5 db in the miniDSP. Later I settled on about 75% and + 5db in the miniDSP and sub level 0 in the AVR.

Raw response was pretty good but it all felt lose. I placed a filter at 17hz to protect the driver, used REW and the miniDSP to dial it all in and integrate with the mains then ran Anthem's ARC Genesis and also created a house curve to allow for a slight rise in response from about 70hz down to 20hz. I was able to EQ it in very nicely using the miniDSP.

I was hugely surprised by what I experienced once it was all set up, the response is tight and powerful, I don't listen at reference levels much but even at my normal listening levels at -15-20 db it sounds excellent. I was worried that it might not sound as tight and composed as the Martin Logan sub did but it not only does sounds as good but exceeds it in almost every way. The ML had to be crancked up high to get acceptable bass but The Hammer just provides that efficient effortless ULF response that I've been missing for a long time, and the great thing about it is that I don't need to crank up the volume sky high to experince it. Of coourse if I crank it gets even better. Mid bass is excellent as well the shutgun shots in John Wick 3 never sounded this good and the chest kick is there and nicely pronounced.
After watching Blade Runner 2049 I checked the walls for cracks as I heard a window next door complaining which I never heard before with the previous sub. It handled all I threw at it very well.
I was worried about music that it may not be as tight as the ML was and I am relieved to hear that it is not the case, while it is not quite as composed as the ML sub it's perfectly acceptable.

...and all of this at a fraction of the price of the ML is quite a bargain. Adding a second Hammer would be much less $$ as the electronics are already there. I could easily build three or four hammers on the price of one ML I had, its an absolute no brainer.

Also checked for power usage and I was rather surprised to find how efficient it is. The max it drew during my tests was 305watts and 4.5 amps.

Overall I am very satisfied with this sub and can only recommend to anyone looking to get into the DIY space with a first easy build. I need to stress though, thorough build and setup is crucial for it to work well, do your homework in that regard otherwise you may get disappointed.

Excellent job Steve well done!

Next build is an 18" sub based on @Javs recommendation and design but that will be a different beast.
Awesome man. I've used the driver in other builds so I know what it's capable of and it is very impressive. Awesome review! Thanks!
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post #88 of 121 Old 05-30-2020, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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The next one is already underway to pair with the Hammer. The Hammerite:



This will be an 18" weapons grade monster.
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EPSON TW-9300 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, DIY Subs 18" 24hz tune and 12" 17hz tune Panasonic UB900, HTPC, etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post50298297
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post #89 of 121 Old 05-30-2020, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
The next one is already underway to pair with the Hammer. The Hammerite:

This will be an 18" weapons grade monster.
Looks great man!
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JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
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post #90 of 121 Old 05-30-2020, 02:42 PM
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Dude, I sure hope you know what you're getting yourself into...There's a sickness around these parts Down the Rabbit hole you go
Yes, that sickness. It has been calling me lately.....
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