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post #1 of 27 Old 03-22-2020, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Help with a Maelstrom-X Build

I have 2 18" Maelstrom-X subwoofers that I need help with. I would like to build two separate subs. For those unaware of the Maelstrom-X they were quite popular a number of years ago but the company went under due to quality issues.

I have both a gen 1 and gen 2 driver that would like to use in a build if it makes sense. My first question is if it even worth doing a build with these or have never subs bypassed these in terms of quality. My second concern is that I have limited space due to putting these behind a screen wall.

My room is a dedicated enclosed space approx 11'x17'x7.5'. The HT is in the basement.

My space restrictions are at max 16" deep, 45" wide, and 36" high.

The following are the specifications of the Mal-X (not sure if these are Gen1 or 2).
Fs: 17.1 Hz
Le: 0.87mH
Re: 3.1 Ohms (Voice Coils wired in parallel)
Qms: 6.88
Qes: .43
Qts: 0.40
Mms: 442g
Cms: 0.19 mm/N
Vas: 383L
Sd: 1182 cm^2
Vd: 7.8L
BL: 18.6
X-max: 33mm
X-mech: 40mm
88.4dB/1W/1m

I have played with WinISD but dont have a clue what I am doing. Any help or direction would be appreciated. Thanks
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-22-2020, 04:04 PM
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@AltaHomeTheatre

I've got a couple of Gen 2's myself.

Some will say their inductance is too high but I don't think it's too big of a deal, and not sure if reasonably priced currently available alternatives are any better.

I think you can get very respectable results.

Is that volume for one or both boxes?

How skilled/ambitious are you as to enclosure builds?

In order of complexity: sealed, ported, bandpass, horn (not sure it's suitable for the latter)

How much of a priority is ULF (10 - 20 Hz)?

How much power is available?

Answer those and I'll model some WinISD sealed/ported for you.

P.S. Where did you get those spec's?

Googling I found the below (the 13mm xmax must be a typo).

Actually I saw the same spec's again here, though that's from 2001

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...BluePrint-1803

Ill let you try to figure out what you have and I'll use those parameters.
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post #3 of 27 Old 03-22-2020, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot for the reply. I will attempt to answer below.


Is that volume for one or both boxes?
Those dimensions are for each box.

How skilled/ambitious are you as to enclosure builds?
I would say very ambitious. Not afraid to try anything

In order of complexity: sealed, ported, bandpass, horn (not sure it's suitable for the latter)

How much of a priority is ULF (10 - 20 Hz)?
Ultra Low is not the highest priority. In the basement so I have purchased Crowson actuators.

How much power is available?
However much is required. Currently have a Behringer EP3000 but willing to purchase anything new. I realize that I will need more power.

P.S. Where did you get those spec's?
I found them in this AVS thread. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-required.html
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post #4 of 27 Old 03-22-2020, 06:02 PM
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Here you go.

You can see the box data at the lower left of each window, except the 2000W input that I used.

For vented I set the vent tuning as low as I could w/o vents getting too long; it's right on the edge w/three 6" ports.

Could go lower if you're willing to get a pair of high excursion PR's ($$) or can accommodate some/all of the vent being external.

You should have a HP filter in either case.

Seems like an inuke 6000dsp would be perfect power-wise and has DSP for the HP.

Gotta do some stuff, will check back in later or tomorrow.
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post #5 of 27 Old 03-22-2020, 06:24 PM
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I used the parameters you gave, but from the low inductance it's likely the Gen 2.

Noah
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-23-2020, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Noah,

I have a few questions but first I will play around with WinISD and see if I can replicate your results.
Cheers
Darryl
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post #7 of 27 Old 03-23-2020, 10:51 AM
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Sure; good luck.

Something you might experiment with is adding the HP filter in the Filters section, which will give you some leeway on port velocity/vent sizing.

Noah
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post #8 of 27 Old 03-23-2020, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Sure; good luck.

Something you might experiment with is adding the HP filter in the Filters section, which will give you some leeway on port velocity/vent sizing.
I have spent the day trying to learn WinISD better. Your graphs were a big help in starting me in the right direction.

My current thoughts are to build a mini-Marty with the following approx. dimensions: 35H x 40w x 16d. This gives an outside volume of 12.96 cuft. Still have to figure out the inside volume after taking off the port, bracing, and sub.

I attempted to match your graphs with a square port. I have attached graphs for SPL, Air Velocity, and Cone Excursion. Not sure if any others are meaningful.

When you suggest the 6000dsp was that for both subs or one of each sub?

Let me know if you see anything wrong. Also found .wdr WinISD files for Gen 1 and 2 versions of the Mal-X.

Cheers
Darryl
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Attached Files
File Type: txt Exodus Maelstrom-X Gen I - Copy.wdr.txt (872 Bytes, 4 views)
File Type: txt Exodus Maelstrom-X Gen II - Copy.wdr.txt (879 Bytes, 3 views)
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post #9 of 27 Old 03-23-2020, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
My current thoughts are to build a mini-Marty with the following approx. dimensions: 35H x 40w x 16d. This gives an outside volume of 12.96 cuft. Still have to figure out the inside volume after taking off the port, bracing, and sub.
Check out the calculator sheet found here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...alculator.html

It will make the calculation much easier.

Chris


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post #10 of 27 Old 03-23-2020, 04:16 PM
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Darryl,

Those look about right, though I didn't check in detail.

If you go with the slot port w/right angle, I'd put in 45 deg corner piece at the outside of the turn, which will reduce improve airflow and reduce vent losses.

Without it, the air just slams into the walls.

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post #11 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Check out the calculator sheet found here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...alculator.html
Chris thanks for the link. I had seen that calculator and actually had downloaded it a number of months ago but completely forgot about it.

I see that it is critical to use it with WinISD because of the relationship between dimensions, vent area, box size, and tuning. I completely underestimated how much space was going to be taken up by the vent and bracing.

An obvious bonus is the calculation of panel sizes which I put into CutList Optimizer. I was going to model in Fusion 360 but dont even need to do that now.
A quick trip to Home Depot and I now have 250lbs of MDF to glue together while social distancing.

Cheers
Darryl
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post #12 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
If you go with the slot port w/right angle, I'd put in 45 deg corner piece at the outside of the turn, which will reduce improve airflow and reduce vent losses.
Noah,
Thanks for the tip, I will do that.
Cheers
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post #13 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
Chris thanks for the link. I had seen that calculator and actually had downloaded it a number of months ago but completely forgot about it.

I see that it is critical to use it with WinISD because of the relationship between dimensions, vent area, box size, and tuning. I completely underestimated how much space was going to be taken up by the vent and bracing.

An obvious bonus is the calculation of panel sizes which I put into CutList Optimizer. I was going to model in Fusion 360 but dont even need to do that now.
A quick trip to Home Depot and I now have 250lbs of MDF to glue together while social distancing.

Cheers
Darryl

Yup, its a great resource. I use it for most ported designs. Way faster and easier than calculating everything.

Subwoofer projects are a great way to stay busy while social distancing. Luckily I had some lined up as well, been keeping me well occupied.



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post #14 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
When you suggest the 6000dsp was that for both subs or one of each sub?
One w/one sub/ch.

4 ohm loads will gets you about 2kW/ch.

Noah
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post #15 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
One w/one sub/ch.

4 ohm loads will gets you about 2kW/ch.
Thanks, I assumed one would work for both.

I was wondering about the port slot. Currently configured at 2" high. Is that too narrow? Going to 2.5" makes for a smaller box volume but seems to model similarly. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Darryl
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post #16 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
Thanks, I assumed one would work for both.

I was wondering about the port slot. Currently configured at 2" high. Is that too narrow? Going to 2.5" makes for a smaller box volume but seems to model similarly. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Darryl

Whats your port velocity?

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post #17 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
One w/one sub/ch.

4 ohm loads will gets you about 2kW/ch.

Nx6000 is only good for 1200w/ch with both driven. Still will work fine.

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post #18 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
I was wondering about the port slot. Currently configured at 2" high. Is that too narrow? Going to 2.5" makes for a smaller box volume but seems to model similarly. Any thoughts?l

Something else must have changed that you didn't notice.

First, width on its own isn't important, cross sectional area is.

Going from 2" to 2.5" increases area and for same length and external dimensions will raise Fb and consume more volume.

I'm guessing the way the program works is that it made Fb higher and determined that the optimum box size is smaller; same volume would have given a bump at Fb.

Noah

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post #19 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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I attached the WinISD for both the 2" and 2.5" vent diameters. For the 2.5" I adjusted the box size according to the spreadsheet. I attempted to keep the other dimensions the same. This is important because I have already cut the MDF but if better I can change the interior vent.

Not sure if one is better than the other. The SPL graph is very similar and the air velocity is slightly lower on the 2.5" but both are acceptable (I think?).

Does one look better than the other or either ok? Any recommendations?

Thanks
Darryl
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post #20 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 09:44 PM
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2” looks better to me, lower tune and velocity is still good.

It sounds like thats what you already cut too.

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post #21 of 27 Old 03-24-2020, 10:53 PM
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I agree, I'd go for the lower tune.

I believe anything under 20 m/s velocity is considered low enough, so you're good there.

Noah
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post #22 of 27 Old 03-25-2020, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Noah and Chris,
Thanks again for the advice. I will do the 2" slot.
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post #23 of 27 Old 03-25-2020, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Chris,
I would love to attempt something like that large horm sometime. I just dont have the room. I have Danleys for my front speakers so would always like more horns - they are just so big.
Cheers

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post #24 of 27 Old 03-25-2020, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
Chris,
I would love to attempt something like that large horm sometime. I just dont have the room. I have Danleys for my front speakers so would always like more horns - they are just so big.
Cheers

Yeah, horns are good at trading space for efficiency. You just need the space.

I’ve never heard the Danleys, very high on the list of speakers I’d love to experience.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltaHomeTheatre View Post
I have 2 18" Maelstrom-X subwoofers that I need help with. I would like to build two separate subs. For those unaware of the Maelstrom-X they were quite popular a number of years ago but the company went under due to quality issues.

I have both a gen 1 and gen 2 driver that would like to use in a build if it makes sense. My first question is if it even worth doing a build with these or have never subs bypassed these in terms of quality. My second concern is that I have limited space due to putting these behind a screen wall.

My room is a dedicated enclosed space approx 11'x17'x7.5'. The HT is in the basement.

My space restrictions are at max 16" deep, 45" wide, and 36" high.

The following are the specifications of the Mal-X (not sure if these are Gen1 or 2).
Fs: 17.1 Hz
Le: 0.87mH
Re: 3.1 Ohms (Voice Coils wired in parallel)
Qms: 6.88
Qes: .43
Qts: 0.40
Mms: 442g
Cms: 0.19 mm/N
Vas: 383L
Sd: 1182 cm^2
Vd: 7.8L
BL: 18.6
X-max: 33mm
X-mech: 40mm
88.4dB/1W/1m

I have played with WinISD but dont have a clue what I am doing. Any help or direction would be appreciated. Thanks
The company went under because Kevin Haskins was a stand up guy. Kevin designed the drivers and had them built in China. Kevin came out with a nice 21" driver. But the manufacturer decided he could save a few cents using a cheaper glue than what was specified. The factory did this without Kevin's knowledge. Kevin sold a whole bunch of these drivers and pretty much all of them failed. Kevin refunded everyones money and it put him out of business. I still have one of his 18" Mal-X in my theater. Using it in a 4.0CF (after driver and brace deductions) sealed box with a MiniDSP10x10HD for EQ.
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post #26 of 27 Old 03-25-2020, 08:58 PM
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Help with a Maelstrom-X Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
@AltaHomeTheatre

I've got a couple of Gen 2's myself.

Some will say their inductance is too high but I don't think it's too big of a deal, and not sure if reasonably priced currently available alternatives are any better.

I think you can get very respectable results.

Is that volume for one or both boxes?

How skilled/ambitious are you as to enclosure builds?

In order of complexity: sealed, ported, bandpass, horn (not sure it's suitable for the latter)

How much of a priority is ULF (10 - 20 Hz)?

How much power is available?

Answer those and I'll model some WinISD sealed/ported for you.

P.S. Where did you get those spec's?

Googling I found the below (the 13mm xmax must be a typo).

Actually I saw the same spec's again here, though that's from 2001

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...BluePrint-1803

Ill let you try to figure out what you have and I'll use those parameters.

The Mael-X has a fine normalized Le. It’s the de facto predecessor, Avalanche 18, that was crippled by high normalized inductance. The Mael-X was and is an excellent driver. I only sold mine because of living circumstances.

As for box, modeling is early 2000s pre DSP technology. Today just build as big a closed box as you can fit, and EQ in situ. FWIW my Mael-X was in a 100L closed box. I powered it with a Dayton SA1000 clone and there was more than enough output.

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post #27 of 27 Old 03-26-2020, 01:42 PM
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Ah ok, I guess I mixed up the Avalanche and MalX.

Re modeling, I agree that you can do without if you use an overlarge sealed box, but still extremely useful for ported and bandpass designs.

Noah
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