Sealed Box Design Help Please (for living room) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 25 Old 04-05-2020, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Sealed Box Design Help Please (for living room)

Hi,

Recently I bought a 18" 4 ohm Rockville RVW1800P4 and a 500 watt RMS plate sub amp to pound the floor in my home entertainment system. Looking at it's T/S params, it should go in a sealed box. Near as I have been able to figure, it would perform nicely in a 5 to 5.5 cf sealed box but other calculations suggest 3 to 3.5 cf. I'd like to get confirmation form others who know more than I do though.

Questions are:
  1. Where do I start when sizing a sealed box?
  2. What frequency should I be tuning for?

Thanks for the help!

Rockville RVW1800P4 T/S Params (we'll see how accurate these are...especially the first four, I'm just a bit skeptical )
Peak Power : 1800 Watts
Power RMS : 900 Watts
Frequency Response : 20 Hz to 500 Hz
Sensitivity : 105dB @ 1w/1m
Impedance : 4 Ohms
REVC: 3.2 Ohm
FO: 31.852 Hz
SD: 128.825m M
BL: 15: 936 TM
QMS: 4.641
QES: 0.390
QTS: 0.360
NO: 3.042%
SPLO: 105 dB
VAS: 380.079 m M
CMS: 161.281 uM/N
MMS: 154.805 g
MMD: 128.218Kg
Driver Displacement (coneand magnet): 0.25 cf

Other stuff about the RVW1800P4
Kevlar Reinforced Ultra Stiff Paper Composite Cone
Pulp Composite Dust Cap
Expanded and Rolled Steel Basket
Treated Accordion, "Asymmetrical W" Cloth Surround
Ultra Saturated, High BL Magnetic Motor Gap
3" High Temperature 4-Layer CCAW High SPL Voice Coil
Linear Progressive Conex Dual Spider System
Nickel Plated Banana Plug Terminals
107 oz. Magnet Motor Structure

For ref, the rest of the system is all older stuff:
Pioneer VSX5700S integrated amp
1 pair Infinity SM120 (I love the Polycell tweets!)
1 pair Infinity SM80
1 pair Infinity RS1000
1 Infinity SM Video Center Channel
2x Boston Acoustics VR500 10" powered sub
250 RMS watt amp driving 4x Bass Shaker AST-2B-4 (mounted to subfloor, wired series/parallel)
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post #2 of 25 Old 04-05-2020, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hi,

Recently I bought a 18" 4 ohm Rockville RVW1800P4 and a 500 watt RMS plate sub amp to pound the floor in my home entertainment system. Looking at it's T/S params, it should go in a sealed box. Near as I have been able to figure, it would perform nicely in a 5 to 5.5 cf sealed box but other calculations suggest 3 to 3.5 cf. I'd like to get confirmation form others who know more than I do though.

Questions are:
  1. Where do I start when sizing a sealed box?
  2. What frequency should I be tuning for?
Modelling in WinISD, it looks like the Rockville driver would be happier in a large ported enclosure.
I'm assuming this is either a car subwoofer or a pro-audio driver. Neither application really targets low, floor rumbling bass notes required for movies.

The 5 cuft sealed is very anemic.
10 cuft ported would pound with most music, but not the best for home theater.
I modeled a well respected home theater driver (Dayton Ultimax 18") in 5 cuft sealed for comparison...no comparison.

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post #3 of 25 Old 04-05-2020, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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That was quick! And that's what I was afraid of. Does your .wdr file look like the attached?
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post #4 of 25 Old 04-05-2020, 06:12 PM
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The beauty of sealed is that it's super easy to EQ, assuming you have some means of doing so. You already have the driver and the amp, do you have a minidsp or something like that to apply eq? If not, you can play with lower crossover settings with higher plate amp gain values to give an apparent boost to the lower frequencies, this can be pretty effective especially if your AVR has room eq.

If not, it'll def work in a large ported box.

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post #5 of 25 Old 04-05-2020, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all of your advice.

Looks like I'd be way more satisfied with a Dayton Audio UM12-22 12 in a 4.35cf vented box than I would ever be with the Rockville RVW1800P4 so I sent it back. I'd never be able to get approval for a 10cf box from my interior decorator/budget manager.

Thoughts?
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post #6 of 25 Old 04-06-2020, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I'd never be able to get approval for a 10cf box from my interior decorator/budget manager.

Thoughts?
Time for a new one!


Joking aside, you'll find that most people on this board will have a preference for as large of a driver as you can use, for a few good reasons. It's easy to relate a subwoofer driver to a piston:
- The output is generally proportional to the air the system pumps
- The wear & tear on the system is proportional to the 'load' on the system (and use)
- A woofer's diameter can be thought of as a piston diameter - assume that stroke/excursion is comparable
- Many times a 12" subwoofer isn't much smaller than an 18" subwoofer considering the difference in displacement. In the same line, a 2.5L engine isn't half the overall size & weight of a 5.0L engine

In home theaters, you have a much larger space without as much 'room gain' as you do in a car. As this board is more catered towards home theater use, we need a lot more wattage and displacement to achieve low frequency response. Add that to the fact that power demands essentially go up exponentially as frequency falls down towards the single digits, you'll find a preference for multiple 18" or 21" drivers around here.

So that being said, what are you looking to achieve with the subwoofer? The driver you mentioned above will probably be pretty enjoyable for music. If you are looking for some good response <30Hz, however, you may find yourself running out of steam quickly below that. We are all familiar with the wife acceptance factor (WAF) limitations on subwoofers, so we do understand your issue with large ported boxes, for sure! That being said, I just want to make sure you are getting what you want in the end. There are some deceptively small builds for a larger drivers out there that would probably outperform that - check out the VBSS build, for example. Still big by most standards!
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post #7 of 25 Old 04-09-2020, 10:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you talking about the VBSS thread with 2k+ posts? That would take me way longer to read than it would to build a box! That would get into another aspect of WAF. Haha! Any shorcuts? I'm a slow reader with not a lot of free time.


I can, and have, crank out a nice MDF sub bow in a weekend. I set my Suburban up with 2X 12 subs and 2X 8" mid bass. I got the box done in a weekend and the rest of the system took a few more weekends.



What I want in the end is the biggest thump for movies I can get with the smallest footprint. I realize size and how it sounds and feels on the chest is inversely proportional and somewhere there is a recipe that has the best compromise for me. Asking for the world here and that's what I figd the UN12-12/4.35cf might be...but I just don't know.



I see Parts Express has sub/box kits. The UM18-12 kit has about 4cf. Seems really small. Doesn't seem like that would dig down very deep for the size of the driver.
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post #8 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Are you talking about the VBSS thread with 2k+ posts? That would take me way longer to read than it would to build a box! That would get into another aspect of WAF. Haha! Any shorcuts? I'm a slow reader with not a lot of free time.


I can, and have, crank out a nice MDF sub bow in a weekend. I set my Suburban up with 2X 12 subs and 2X 8" mid bass. I got the box done in a weekend and the rest of the system took a few more weekends.



What I want in the end is the biggest thump for movies I can get with the smallest footprint. I realize size and how it sounds and feels on the chest is inversely proportional and somewhere there is a recipe that has the best compromise for me. Asking for the world here and that's what I figd the UN12-12/4.35cf might be...but I just don't know.



I see Parts Express has sub/box kits. The UM18-12 kit has about 4cf. Seems really small. Doesn't seem like that would dig down very deep for the size of the driver.

As with most builds, it is only really limited by your budget, which I dont think you have mentioned (that would help). Nor did you mention the size of your room. The UM18 Dayton kit is extremely tried and true on here, and unless you are filling a huge room, or shooting for crazy extension or output, should give you plenty of LFE.
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post #9 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your replies.



Well,it is a pretty huge room, (living, dining, kitchen) great room. Good thing is I do have a corner available.


The budget is...well...subject to approval and my selling skills. That still tells you nothing.


Looking at the UM18 Dayton kit in a sealed 4cf box in WinISD it looks like it falls off way up at 40hz. Sure looks great in a 20cf vented box! Can't be sure tho because every driver I create fails the data integrity check.
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post #10 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Are you talking about the VBSS thread with 2k+ posts? That would take me way longer to read than it would to build a box! That would get into another aspect of WAF. Haha! Any shorcuts? I'm a slow reader with not a lot of free time.

Everything you need to know about the VBSS is in the very first post of that thread.
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post #11 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 12:47 PM
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I'm a slow reader with not a lot of free time.
Well I guess you're one of the lucky ones. Most of America has loads of time on their hands due to the economy being held hostage by Covid-19
If you're a basshead, you may find one sealed UM 18-22 to be inadequate.

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post #12 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you guys.


I'm still working (from home) even with the Covid-19 thing. That's kinda nice cuz it saves me 2 hours a day commuting but I just spend it working (mechanical designer with SolidWorks in case you were wondering).


The UM18-12 looks like an earthquake in a 20 cf ported box. I'll check the VBSS thread and see what's up.

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post #13 of 25 Old 04-10-2020, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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And I am a bass head but I'm also a mid head and a treble head! I love accurate, detailed full range sound and get less than little enjoyment from lifeless tweet, papery sounding mid and muddy bass. My current system works pretty well for music but it could def use more in the basement for HT. The Boston subs supposedly go down to 27hz on paper. I think that means you could see that with a strobe but you can't really hear or feel it. They would probably work a lot better if they were stacked in the corner. The BIG room kind of eats them up too.

I looked at the VBSS and plotted it out. Def has SPL over anything smaller than 18" and def needs DSP and power to get the SPL way down low.
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post #14 of 25 Old 04-11-2020, 08:03 AM
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Google the Flex 12 subwoofer. Its tunable like the VBSS. Smaller of coarse. I think DIY Sound Group has B stock woofers for $105. This sub can pound, I heard one at a GTG.
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post #15 of 25 Old 04-11-2020, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
The UM18 Dayton kit is extremely tried and true on here...

Is the UM18 Dayton kit a better performer than the VBSS given both hooked to a Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke? I assume the driver is but the box is the other half. Cost and size of both are comparable and reasonable.




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Google the Flex 12 subwoofer. Its tunable like the VBSS. Smaller of coarse. I think DIY Sound Group has B stock woofers for $105. This sub can pound, I heard one at a GTG.

Looks like a pounder too! Thanks.
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post #16 of 25 Old 04-12-2020, 05:29 AM
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Is the UM18 Dayton kit a better performer than the VBSS given both hooked to a Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke? I assume the driver is but the box is the other half. Cost and size of both are comparable and reasonable.

Others can chime in as they are more knowledgeable, but I believe the VBSS will give you more in the 30hz range while the UM18 can extend into the upper teens.
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post #17 of 25 Old 04-12-2020, 06:09 AM
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Is the UM18 Dayton kit a better performer than the VBSS given both hooked to a Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke? I assume the driver is but the box is the other half. Cost and size of both are comparable and reasonable.
If you only have a nu1k, the VBSS is the way to go.
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post #18 of 25 Old 04-12-2020, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
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Is the UM18 Dayton kit a better performer than the VBSS given both hooked to a Behringer NU1000DSP iNuke?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
Others can chime in as they are more knowledgeable, but I believe the VBSS will give you more in the 30hz range while the UM18 can extend into the upper teens.
Not with a NU1000dsp powering it. You'd be clipping that amp to hell and back trying to power a UM 18-22 in a 4cuft sealed cab.

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post #19 of 25 Old 04-12-2020, 06:22 AM
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Not with a NU1000dsp powering it. You'd be clipping that amp to hell and back trying to power a UM 18-22 in a 4cuft sealed cab.
Ooof, I didnt pay attention to his amp. Good catch.
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post #20 of 25 Old 04-12-2020, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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So the key to a successful UM18/4cf deployment is raw power to force it to dig down low even when it really doesn't want to because of the drastically undersized box and smooth it out with DSP. Similar is true with the VBSS but to a far lesser degree and the driver itself is incapable of dipping far into the inaudible range. Additionally, the Flex-12 is an excellent performer for it's size but because of it's size it's in a while different seismic category. Reviewing the charts though, it's not really far behind.

Thank you all for your help! You have given me lots of crucial info that really helps.

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post #21 of 25 Old 04-13-2020, 04:40 AM
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So the key to a successful UM18/4cf deployment is raw power to force it to dig down low even when it really doesn't want to because of the drastically undersized box and smooth it out with DSP. Similar is true with the VBSS but to a far lesser degree and the driver itself is incapable of dipping far into the inaudible range. Additionally, the Flex-12 is an excellent performer for it's size but because of it's size it's in a while different seismic category. Reviewing the charts though, it's not really far behind.

Thank you all for your help! You have given me lots of crucial info that really helps.
Glad you are looking into this some more =)

So a bit of a summary:
-The VBSS is a smaller ported box meant for a highly efficient but low excursion driver. The ports are sized appropriately for that. Ported boxes will have ~3dB additional output around tuning frequency for a given driver and power
-The PE kit you are looking at is a small sealed box. Sealed boxes have generally great frequency responses down to single digits... but are less efficient than a ported. They can be much smaller.
-On the flip side, a "full marty" is a giant ported enclosure. You really start to 'max out' the driver, per say, at the cost of a giant (4'x2'x2') enclosure. You'll still need DSP, but it is tuned for 17Hz and will put out a ton of output - from the same driver you are using in the PE kit.

So you gave basically one requirement: You want something small. The top two options above both give you something relatively small for an 18" driver. As they have the word 'small' involved, there will be trade offs - you just gotta decide what. They'll both outperform a 12" by nearly double in a given configuration, with being much less than double the size.

Now you have to decide what your real priorities are:
-The VBSS will be more efficient and have more output around tuning, but it will require DSP and won't hit single digits. It is probably still larger than the PE sealed kit, but the proportions may be better suited to your room.
-The PE sealed kit will be less efficient and will have lower output at certain frequencies, but it won't really require DSP. Sealed boxes are nice, as they are relatively small and don't require that high pass filter to cut off single digits. However, in your situation, it doesn't look like you'll be getting 'audible' responses below 20Hz, so I wouldn't be too concerned about this unless you were looking to add on a lot later.

In my opinion, if you want the most output for a smaller box, both options are great uses of space per output. The VBSS uses a cheap pro audio woofer and does some pretty impressive things with it, so I personally would go that way as its a ~$100 driver vs ~$300 driver. If amp noise isn't an issue, I'd check out the behringer inuke pro audio amps if going that route - the DSP built into the applicable models is pretty good as far as subs go. You can do two channels that way with independent EQ if you ever want, too. Otherwise, you are looking at getting a standalone DSP if you go VBSS... something like a miniDSP.

Truthfully, two VBSSs OR two of those PE enclosures powered off of an inuke would be a really great setup for basically anybody not on this forum. You'd want the 6000 if you go sealed. If you can afford the floor space, I'd probably go with two VBSS, myself. Dirt cheap, solid output, and with two you'd get some benefit of having a more even room response. To get any appreciable output at lower frequencies than that, you'd have to spend a lot more money or cough up a lot more volume.
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post #22 of 25 Old 04-13-2020, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the detailed summary.

Just to be nit picky, the small size is something I just have to live with if I want to remain married. Haha! Same with cost. If we could fit this in a shoebox for free, we'd all have one.

The VBSS is definetly the way I'm leaning and you have given me the final nudge.

Is the DSP-408 a decent solution? Of course not nearly what an iNuke is but I do like the remote for other users.
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post #23 of 25 Old 04-13-2020, 03:16 PM
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Is the DSP-408 a decent solution? Of course not nearly what an iNuke is but I do like the remote for other users.
Just to be sure, you're aware that the DSP-408 is only a processor, and not an amp, correct? You would use it instead of say a miniDSP, whereas the iNuke is an amp with built in DSP.

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post #24 of 25 Old 04-13-2020, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Location: Reno/Sparks, NV
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Just to be sure, you're aware that the DSP-408 is only a processor, and not an amp, correct? You would use it instead of say a miniDSP, whereas the iNuke is an amp with built in DSP.

Yep, fully aware. It's way too small to have any usable power above signal. It looks like it has some issues with corrupt settings data files. It does open up many options though.
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