NX6000D with Dual UM18-22's Basic Wiring Question - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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NX6000D with Dual UM18-22's Basic Wiring Question

I finished building my dual UM18-22 in sealed Denovo flat packs from Parts Express and I have the Behringer NX6000D to power them. I have not connected anything yet as I want to make sure that all my wiring and initial settings are correct to avoid damaging the subs. I am really new to this DIY subwoofers and pro audio equipment and I feel like I am in a little over my head. I have been reading about this stuff and watched YouTube videos, but a lot of the information is either outdated or does not necessarily apply to my setup.

I wired the woofers like this:
Jumper from voice coil 1 (+) to voice coil 2 (-)
Voice coil 2 (+) to speakon connector (1+)
Voice coil 1 (-) to speakon connector (1-)
1+ and 1- on speakon wire on both ends from subwoofer to amp
I have 2 of the wires and both subwoofers are wired the same.

Speakon 1 to Ch.A out, Speakon 2 to Ch.B out
RCA to XLR from Sub1 out on AVR to Ch.A in on amp.

I have a UMIK-1, REW and NX Edit on my laptop connected to an HDMI input on the receiver.
What mode should the amp be set to (stereo, mono, dual mono)? I assume dual mono, but want to make sure.
What should the input control knobs on the front be set to starting out to avoid clipping or damage to the woofers? I assume I will use the gain on the DSP to level match the subs?
Do I need to set a high pass filter for these subwoofers? I assume the AVR will take care of the low pass filter.
Thank you.
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post #2 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 05:08 AM
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I don't believe a hpf is required for a sealed sub.

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post #3 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 05:50 AM
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NX6000D with Dual UM18-22's Basic Wiring Question

For signal chain optimization, you will want to run the amp’s attenuation knobs all the way up. Use the avr’s level adjustment to bring the sub level down where you want.

No HPF needed.

Wiring sounds correct.

Dual mono mode is correct.

Chris
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post #4 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
For signal chain optimization, you will want to run the amp’s attenuation knobs all the way up. Use the avr’s level adjustment to bring the sub level down where you want.

No HPF needed.

Wiring sounds correct.

Dual mono mode is correct.

Chris
Awesome! Thank you very much.

What about gain matching the subs? Should I use the amp DSP software for that or adjust the knobs on the front accordingly?
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post #5 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
Awesome! Thank you very much.

What about gain matching the subs? Should I use the amp DSP software for that or adjust the knobs on the front accordingly?

Two identical subs? They are gain matched by nature.

I’ve never used inuke software, but adjusting levels in there should be fine. I leave the attenuation knobs alone.

Chris
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post #6 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Two identical subs? They are gain matched by nature.

I’ve never used inuke software, but adjusting levels in there should be fine. I leave the attenuation knobs alone.

Chris
Understood. I assumed that the polyfil inside the boxes played a part in this. I had read that even 2 of the same subs should be gain matched, but I've done so much reading and research on this over the last few weeks, I might be over-analyzing things.
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post #7 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
For signal chain optimization, you will want to run the amp’s attenuation knobs all the way up. Use the avr’s level adjustment to bring the sub level down where you want.

No HPF needed.

Wiring sounds correct.

Dual mono mode is correct.


Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Two identical subs? They are gain matched by nature.

I’ve never used inuke software, but adjusting levels in there should be fine. I leave the attenuation knobs alone.

Chris

Exactly what I did.
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post #8 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
Understood. I assumed that the polyfil inside the boxes played a part in this. I had read that even 2 of the same subs should be gain matched, but I've done so much reading and research on this over the last few weeks, I might be over-analyzing things.

Yeah, you’re over analyzing, lol. I’d expect driver manufacturing tolerances to vary as much as the polyfil, assuming you added the same quantity to both.

Feel free to match them though, it won’t hurt anything.

Chris
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post #9 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:15 AM
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NX6000D with Dual UM18-22's Basic Wiring Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
For signal chain optimization, you will want to run the amp’s attenuation knobs all the way up. Use the avr’s level adjustment to bring the level down

This is not necessarily true. Unless you are talking specifically for mini dsp use. (Which I don’t have and so can’t comment specifically on).


Gain attenuation knobs are for gain matching with your source voltage. You do not need the knobs to be fully clockwise to get full power output out of the amp, and doing so can introduce noise and hum into your system. If I had my knobs fully clockwise I wouldn’t be able to adjust the source voltage low enough to even begin to be balanced sound.

My gain attenuation knobs on my inuke dsp 6000s are about 1-2 clicks over half and my AVR subwoofer trims are -7 (only goes down to negative 12) and I’m closing in on 15dB hot bass relative to mains as is. (Which is about my preference)

If I turn my knobs fully clockwise and lower my channel trims in proper parallel, I encounter audible hum, and gain nothing as far as power output or spl levels. With my setup my amps deliver their full output capability at just over half on the gain attenuator knob adjustment, and I don’t have audible hum.

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Last edited by Archaea; 04-10-2020 at 06:50 AM.
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post #10 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This is not true.

Care to explain?
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post #11 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
Understood. I assumed that the polyfil inside the boxes played a part in this. I had read that even 2 of the same subs should be gain matched, but I've done so much reading and research on this over the last few weeks, I might be over-analyzing things.

I went through the same crap when I was contemplating fill, and how much, and what type to use. In the end, I didn't use any. I'll never know the difference of a benefit or not, but my subs are insanely good as is.
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post #12 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This is not necessarily true. Unless you are talking specifically for mini dsp use. (Which I don’t have and so can’t comment specifically on).


Gain attenuation knobs are for gain matching with your source voltage. You do not need the knobs to be fully clockwise to get full power output out of the amp, and doing so can introduce noise and hum into your system. If I had my knobs fully clockwise I wouldn’t be able to adjust the source voltage low enough to even begin to be balanced sound.

My gain attenuation knobs on my inuke dsp 6000s are about 1-2 clicks over half and my AVR subwoofer trims are -7 (only goes down to negative 12) and I’m closing in on 15dB hot bass relative to mains as is. (Which is about my preference)

If I turn my knobs fully clickwise and lower my channel trims in proper parallel, I encounter audible hum, and gain nothing as far as power output or spl levels.
Interesting. Yeah, I do not have a miniDSP, at least not yet. I had planned on setting the AVRs sub1 out to -6db and start there. I guess I'll see how it goes, I was primarily concerned with damaging the subs, but from what I can gather, this would be pretty hard to do with this amp.
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post #13 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This is not necessarily true. Unless you are talking specifically for mini dsp use. (Which I don’t have and so can’t comment specifically on).


Gain attenuation knobs are for gain matching with your source voltage. You do not need the knobs to be fully clockwise to get full power output out of the amp, and doing so can introduce noise and hum into your system. If I had my knobs fully clockwise I wouldn’t be able to adjust the source voltage low enough to even begin to be balanced sound.

My gain attenuation knobs on my inuke dsp 6000s are about 1-2 clicks over half and my AVR subwoofer trims are -7 (only goes down to negative 12) and I’m closing in on 15dB hot bass relative to mains as is. (Which is about my preference)


If I turn my knobs fully clickwise and lower my channel trims in proper parallel, I encounter audible hum, and gain nothing as far as power output or spl levels.

What are you measuring this to? 80db?
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post #14 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:32 AM
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I have a very similar setup (inuke dsp 6000 and UM18-22 in sealed boxes. I’ve found the following very useful — On my inuke dsp 6000 amplifiers I engage a power limiter for the equivalent of 1750 watts per channel at 4 ohm through the amplifier DSP, and that keeps the amplifiers from power-cycling under heavy load. With no power limit in place my amplifiers will briefly power cycle under sustained max output during extreme bass demos.

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post #15 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:33 AM
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NX6000D with Dual UM18-22's Basic Wiring Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratm View Post
What are you measuring this to? 80db?

AVR test tones, with omnimic and sine sweep frequency response plots from track 2 of the onnimic disk.

To be fair I don’t just have two subs and one amp. I have 8 subs and 4 amps...

But main point is maxing out the gain knob is not a required, or even a necessarily advisable step.

The gain attenuator knobs are meant to match against the source input voltage. (Which of course varies with your unique source equipment)

You do not need full clockwise gain attenuator setting to get full power from the amplifier. If your source voltage is strong enough you can get full power output with the knob at any particular lesser (counterclockwise) setting.

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Last edited by Archaea; 04-10-2020 at 06:52 AM.
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post #16 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
AVR test tones, with omnimic and sine sweep frequency response plots from track 2 of the onnimic disk.

I have the Umik so I don't have the disk. I may try this today. Using the AVR test tone, would I measure to 80db on REW?
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post #17 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
This is not necessarily true. Unless you are talking specifically for mini dsp use. (Which I don’t have and so can’t comment specifically on).


Gain attenuation knobs are for gain matching with your source voltage. You do not need the knobs to be fully clockwise to get full power output out of the amp, and doing so can introduce noise and hum into your system. If I had my knobs fully clockwise I wouldn’t be able to adjust the source voltage low enough to even begin to be balanced sound.

My gain attenuation knobs on my inuke dsp 6000s are about 1-2 clicks over half and my AVR subwoofer trims are -7 (only goes down to negative 12) and I’m closing in on 15dB hot bass relative to mains as is. (Which is about my preference)

If I turn my knobs fully clickwise and lower my channel trims in proper parallel, I encounter audible hum, and gain nothing as far as power output or spl levels.

This is true, I am thinking in terms of having other devices in the chain. Specifically the minidsp, many of them are quite easy to clip. I know I was at -9db on my avr and dangerously close to still clipping the 2x4bal with 4v input/output. I’m using a 4x10hd now with 8v input/output, but still have the avr at -9 since I can easily run the amps to clip with clean signal.

Chris
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post #18 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:48 AM
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REW has no SPL meter capability built in to my knowledge as omnimic does. So you’d have to compare test tones from the subwoofer trim relative to the main channel trim. If your goal is to reduce Behringer amp gain knob attenuation (to minimize hum), as a general loose estimate each click is roughly 2db, try lowering your gain attenuation knob 1 click, in tandem with raising your subwoofer trim 2dB. It’ll be roughly the same. You’ll want your subwoofer trim on your AVR no higher than about -3dB to avoid source clipping from the AVR with redirected bass from your mainspeakers.

I know onnimic pretty well, but I’m not an REW expert by any means, so I’ll let someone advise you who is.
Calling on @desertdome

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post #19 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
REW has no SPL meter capability built in to my knowledge as omnimic does. So you’d have to compare test tones from the subwoofer trim relative to the main channel trim. If your goal is to reduce Behringer amp gain knob attenuation (to minimize hum), as a general loose estimate each click is roughly 2db, try lowering your gain attenuation knob 1 click, in tandem with raising your subwoofer trim 2dB. It’ll be roughly the same. You’ll want your subwoofer trim on your AVR no higher than about -3dB to avoid source clipping from the AVR with redirected bass from your mainspeakers.

I know onnimic pretty well, but I’m not an REW expert by any means, so I’ll let someone advise you who is.
Calling on @desertdome

Yes, REW does have spl measurement capability with a calibrated mic. I’m not sure how it would work without it.
I use a umik.

Chris
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post #20 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 06:58 AM
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Yes that's correct for series wiring.

The input attenuation on the front panel should be maxed out, the AVR LFE trim should be at 0, and the master volume should be set low (at first).
The DSP software gain knob should be at 0 at first.

Then play some music and crank it until you get the correct balance, within the limits of the gear.
The DSP software gain knob should be the first thing you adjust.

Reducing the level is always safe. If you are boosting more than 3db, then adjust both the LFE trim and software gain by equal amounts. Monitoring the input and output levels to make sure nothing is clipping and adjust accordingly.

If you only need to boost a particular frequency range, then use the EQ to do that. Always monitor for clipping in's/out's after making large adjustments using aggressive music/movie scenes, then lower to back to reasonable levels.

Generally a subwoofer should be good for at least 3mm's of excursion before failure is even a physical possibility. Every mm beyond that comes at increased risk (and is highly frequency dependent.)

Ported and Horned subs generally reach max excursion either slightly above or below tuning. It's normal for the excursion to reduce as you near the tuning.

For sealed and IB the excursion increases drastically below 30hz, in a predictable way (until amp roll off, in power or FR).

Playing at the system impedance peak is the safest frequency to play for a given wattage/excursion.
Voltage across a resistance causes current to flow.
Current causes heat. (Like 2x the current is 4x the heat, it's not linear, in gets exponentially worse.)
For a given voltage, lower ohm'ed subs will get hotter faster than high-ohm'ed subs.
For a given wattage, the amount of heat produced will be the same for all ohms. Likewise for amplifier guts.

Most subs, at reasonable distances, should be capable of 90db without too-much trouble.
Every db beyond that comes at increased risk.

Using the box sim and distance law you can predict the safe level.
That said, sim's don't take coil/amplifier heat into consideration.

The UMIK maxes out at 130db, regardless of distance, *if* to do the dip switch adjustment to it. Otherwise it clips much lower in SPL. You have to adjust the sen-factor in the cal file accordingly (so take before and afters to ensure you haven't changed the detected db's. 100hz sinewave at 95db at <6inches should do.)
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-umik-1-a.html

Then you'll be able to take sweeps up to 120db or so. Beyond that the umik will still register another 10db but genearlly it will be with increasingly gross mic distortion.
You'll know in REW if the mic is clipping because the SPL and RTA window shows 0dbFS and the db's turn red.

As for the inuke, the level monitoring tree is a logarithmic db scale.
So 0db is full power (clipping).
-3db is 50% power
-6db 25% power
-10db 10% power
-20db 1% power

Generally speaking, if things are clipping or getting hot, clacking or going into protect mode, then that is a clear sign that you need to double or quadruple the amount of supporting equipment to handle that playback level safely.
So higher efficiency stuff, bigger cones, more cones, beefier ratings etc.

Most people will be happy with a pair of subs and one amp at first, but then often quickly evolve into a proper basshead, buying dozens each, at a time...
I mean, you're not a real basshead, until you've fried at least 1 DIY sub.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 04-10-2020 at 07:39 AM.
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post #21 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 07:31 AM
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Yes well, they don't call them ipuke's for no reason...
They have a reputation of high hum/hiss noises, and low build quality, and a high failure rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Gain attenuation knobs are for gain matching with your source voltage. You do not need the knobs to be fully clockwise to get full power output out of the amp, and doing so can introduce noise and hum into your system. If I had my knobs fully clockwise I wouldn’t be able to adjust the source voltage low enough to even begin to be balanced sound.

My gain attenuation knobs on my inuke dsp 6000s are about 1-2 clicks over half and my AVR subwoofer trims are -7 (only goes down to negative 12) and I’m closing in on 15dB hot bass relative to mains as is. (Which is about my preference)

If I turn my knobs fully clockwise and lower my channel trims in proper parallel, I encounter audible hum, and gain nothing as far as power output or spl levels. With my setup my amps deliver their full output capability at just over half on the gain attenuator knob adjustment, and I don’t have audible hum.
There are a lot of variables here.
People with real XLR don't have the same problems that people trying to convert RCA to XLR have.
Converting RCA to XLR voltages is already starting off un-optimal, and often requires maxing out the AVR LFE trim and input attenuation knobs just to get enough signal to the XLR-based pro-amplifier.

People with real XLR can generally leave everything at 0db trim, and drastically reduce the input attenuation knobs, while still receiving hot bass.

Even still, there is a wide variance in output voltages and acceptable input voltage ranges between various types/models/brands of gear. What works for one person may not work for another person (unless they have the same equipment and SPL tastes.)

That said: I can set my FP14k knobs and switches to ANY position, and still get no hum, and still get proper levels (talking subwoofers here, obviously there will be hiss on a zillion-db/w/m tweeter.)
That's because I have real XLR throughout, and ultra-low noise Sabre Ref DAC's for DSP and Pre-amplification. Which isn't normal at-all (but possible. )

Inuke's don't have good SNR, and going from RCA to XLR is sub-optimal, so hum is a problem.
Generally, Pro audio and Home audio equipment doesn't mix well/easily.

If you want closer to a hum-free and hassle-free experience, you'll have to step up to a processor with XLR outputs, such as a 7705 etc, and some FP clones (or speakerpower, powersoft, gruppen) etc.

Beyond that, there is also a possibility that you have an unresolved ground-loop issue in your system that is manifesting itself. Ground loops are a very common problem to encounter in the audio industry and often difficult to diagnose/resolve.
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post #22 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
I engage a power limiter for the equivalent of 1750 watts per channel at 4 ohm through the amplifier DSP, and that keeps the amplifiers from power-cycling under heavy load. I have 8 subs and 4 amps...
Dude you should upgrade to two FP20k's, that will send the 8 UM-18's to the moon and back without needing to protect the amplifier, if anything you'll need to protect the drivers from bottoming/melting.
or quad FP14k's if you want to ensure the demo's don't end OR limit!
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post #23 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I think I am more confused now than I was earlier. LOL

So max out the gain knobs on front of the amp and set the sub1 out on AVR to 0 to start? And only adjust the gain inside the amp DSP software?

What happens once I have the subs eq'd with REW and I want to run Audyssey after? Wouldn't Audyssey yell at me to turn the subs down to 75db messing with everything I had just set up?
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post #24 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
Speakon 1 to Ch.A out, Speakon 2 to Ch.B out
RCA to XLR from Sub1 out on AVR to Ch.A in on amp.


What mode should the amp be set to (stereo, mono, dual mono)? I assume dual mono, but want to make sure.
AFAIK, using only 1 input (A in this case) you want to use Biamp-1. I believe Dual Mono expects both inputs to be connected.

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post #25 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
AFAIK, using only 1 input (A in this case) you want to use Biamp-1. I believe Dual Mono expects both inputs to be connected.
For bi-amp will I need to change the speakon cables around? 1+ and 2+ instead of 1+ and 1-, or was that for bridge mode?

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post #26 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
For bi-amp will I need to change the speakon cables around? 1+ and 2+ instead of 1+ and 1-, or was that for bridge mode?

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Thats only for bridging.

Chris
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post #27 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking at the manual, bi-amp1 seems to use the same 4 conductor connector to both subs, not 1 in to both outputs.

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post #28 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FyreFlux View Post
Looking at the manual, bi-amp1 seems to use the same 4 conductor connector to both subs, not 1 in to both outputs.
Not sure what you're saying here. Biamp-1 takes input A and drives both outputs A and B. Biamp-2 takes input B and drives both outputs A and B.

PEQ/filters/delay/etc. can be applied to each output individually in either Biamp mode.

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post #29 of 45 Old 04-10-2020, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I see. I'll be messing around with it a bit later. Not like I can mess it up, either there will be sound on both subs, or there won't and then I'll change the mode.

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post #30 of 45 Old 04-11-2020, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I know I was at -9db on my avr and dangerously close to still clipping the 2x4bal with 4v input/output.
Chris
Wow! -9db MV and still close to clipping a 4v input What avr do you have?

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