NSW6021 Inductance Model Comparison - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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NSW6021 Inductance Model Comparison

John ( @Red Five ) asked me to compare Normal vs Lossy inductance models in hornresp to measured frequency response of the Alpha Devastator with the Eminence NSW6021-6.
I decided to be a bit more thorough and also compare vs the Alpha with a plugged port and the submax v3.

Since Josh ( @Ricci ) has measured this driver, I also included models with his measured specs including semi-inductance parameters. I know the driver he measured was on a different basket than these production models, not sure how specs would be altered.
EDIT: Per Josh’s advice later in this thread, models updated to factory specs, only modified with the data-bass semi-inductance model. /EDIT

John, ( @LTD02 ), this may be helpful to you.
A huge thanks to you for the submax v3 design and many others.

Close mic measurements were taken with mic three inches from front of mouth. Submax centered, Alpha centered on port/qw divider. Cabinets were side by side, out into the room

I did forget to take close mic measurements without the HPF’s engaged. I added equivalent filters to the HR models to compensate. The cabs are in their final locations now, and submax is not moving again until I do.
Highpass Filters:
Submax v3: Second Order Butterworth at 17hz
Alpha: Second Order Butterworth at 18hz
Alpha Plugged: Second Order Butterworth at 16hz

Alpha Devastator:



Alpha Devastator with one port plugged:



Submaximus v3:



It appears to me that the normal inductance model is closest on Alpha and Alpha plugged. It is hard to determine which fits best on v3.

John, Josh, or anyone else, pm me your email address if you would like me to send you these sweeps to look at.

EDIT2:
I performed sweeps on my other two readily-available enclosures for more data.

First is my Mini Devastator v1, loaded with a B&C 18DS115-4.

This enclosure stays much closer to the normal-le model.

Second is my Stereo Integrity HST18d2 mkIII in 10.5 cu ported at 11hz. I wasn’t exactly sure how to close-mic a ported direct-radiator, so I tried two methods. “Cone” is taken from center of cone, “cone/port os taken halfway between the edge of the come and the port mouth.

Not a great match on this one, but I believe the lossy le model fits best by a safe margin.


What I expected to show out of this outlandishly-longwinded post: Use normal le models for pro drivers, use lossy le models for long-throw theater drivers.

What I believe I actually demonstrated:
Use normal le modeling for devastators with pro drivers.
Maybe Use lossy le for the HST, it fits slightly better.
I have no idea what is going on with my submax.

Chris

Last edited by a77cj7; 04-10-2020 at 07:02 PM.
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post #2 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:01 AM
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Nice work Chris. Thanks for posting this and for keeping me motivated and on track for my Alpha builds.
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post #3 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:24 AM
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The max models are strange. All of the previous tests (maybe only 2), indicated that the model matched the real world repsonse pretty close. Yours is pretty far off.

Is it possible that your driver isn't broken in enough to get the FS lowererd down to where Josh measured his?
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post #4 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
The max models are strange. All of the previous tests (maybe only 2), indicated that the model matched the real world repsonse pretty close. Yous is pretty far off.

Is it possible that your driver isn't broken in enough to get the FS lowererd down to where Josh measured his?

Its been used an equivalent amount to the driver in Alpha. I would expect a loosening of the suspension to increase the low-end, not decrease it.
As for accuracy, no idea. I know my dimensions aren’t perfect, but shouldn’t be far enough off to greatly affect the model. I did make sure the throat was to exact dimensions by using full length bracing.

Chris
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post #5 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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NSW6021 Inductance Model Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
The max models are strange. All of the previous tests (maybe only 2), indicated that the model matched the real world repsonse pretty close. Yours is pretty far off.

Is it possible that your driver isn't broken in enough to get the FS lowererd down to where Josh measured his?

The only one I’ve seen compared is John’s drawn-in using the measurements by asarose247.


@asarose247 , if you still have those sweeps saved, send them to me and I can do a model overlay. Or if you’re able to take another close-mic, that would be great too.

Chris

Last edited by a77cj7; 04-10-2020 at 11:42 AM.
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post #6 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:42 AM
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I could be wrong, but the FS has a big impact on the shape of the response in the FLH. If the FS of the NSW is high, you get that peak then dip on the bottom. That flattens out as the FS drops. Try taking your max model with the NSW and raising the FS of the driver and see if it matches closer to your results.
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post #7 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
I could be wrong, but the FS has a big impact on the shape of the response in the FLH. If the FS of the NSW is high, you get that peak then dip on the bottom. That flattens out as the FS drops. Try taking your max model with the NSW and raising the FS of the driver and see if it matches closer to your results.

Fs changed from 29 to 34hz, a huge change.
Black is 34hz.


Almost no change, definitely not what we’re seeing on the close-mic.

Chris
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post #8 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 11:59 AM
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Interesting. Oh well, thanks for checking. Who knows then. Seems like the model was verified to be pretty close, and the driver was measured. Odd that your results aren't closer. Not that it's a bad response, just not matching the model as well.
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post #9 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Interesting. Oh well, thanks for checking. Who knows then. Seems like the model was verified to be pretty close, and the driver was measured. Odd that your results aren't closer. Not that it's a bad response, just not matching the model as well.

If anything, measured is better than model, lol. I’m not complaining but would prefer to see it closer as well. If anyone else has close mic measurements of a v3, I’ll be happy to run comparisons on them.

Chris
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post #10 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 01:27 PM
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Here's a couple of things to consider when comparing measured response vs sim.

Close mic sub response is not the same as half-space measurements from a few meters. It's close enough for most uses but close mic response tends show greater low end and less top end compared with outdoor GP. It's not uncommon to see 100Hz be -3dB relative to 15Hz in the close mic vs half-space measurement. The simulations are usually for a half-space environment.

Drivers specs can vary quite a bit. Like a lot even from the best MFG's. It can make a difference. Hopefully most units would be within close enough tolerance that they all "work" in the same cab design. I'm confident in the spec I pulled from the Eminence driver that is posted at DB, but that unit was well broken in. Factory fresh ones probably will be somewhat different. It shouldn't make a huge difference but it will make some. This is why I always try to use the same driver that I've pulled specs from for the in cabinet tests. Then I know what the driver specs are so if the sim is way off, it's because the sim inputs are wrong for representing the cab. This is how I end up confident that the inputs for the cab in HR are correct.

Were the "DB" specs used exactly those from the website? If so your particular NSW6021-6 driver might be somewhat different and those may not match that well. What I would recommend is use the factory specs but add in only the semi inductance parameters from the particular driver I measured. Usually the specs from the MFG's like B&C, Eminence, Faital, 18Sound, etc, are averaged over tests of many units and should be close enough. The semi inductance specs won't be exact for your driver but should give a closer match. Obviously the best thing to do is measure the exact driver being used. Driver measurement is prone to error and variation even then. Impedance measurements are very handy for comparing real result to sim. In some ways more useful / easier than the FR. No worries about mic placement for example.

The inputs in HR may not be as optimized as they should be for representing the cab. This can easily account for big differences. For example the Alpha measurements posted above show notable differences between any of the sims and the measured result in the 75-150Hz octave. It looks like the vent resonance is not at the frequency it is being sim'd to be and there is possibly some sort of internal resonance or chamber effect going on as well in that area. The V3 response is even more different. Not very close to the sim.

In a nutshell you have a bunch of variables that can all stack up and create large discrepancies between what was measured and what was sim'd.
If you have the capability an impedance sweep of the driver in free air and then in the cab would probably be the quickest easiest way to see how close the driver specs used in the sim and the cab sim itself are.
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post #11 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Here's a couple of things to consider when comparing measured response vs sim.

Close mic sub response is not the same as half-space measurements from a few meters. It's close enough for most uses but close mic response tends show greater low end and less top end compared with outdoor GP. It's not uncommon to see 100Hz be -3dB relative to 15Hz in the close mic vs half-space measurement. The simulations are usually for a half-space environment.

Drivers specs can vary quite a bit. Like a lot even from the best MFG's. It can make a difference. Hopefully most units would be within close enough tolerance that they all "work" in the same cab design. I'm confident in the spec I pulled from the Eminence driver that is posted at DB, but that unit was well broken in. Factory fresh ones probably will be somewhat different. It shouldn't make a huge difference but it will make some. This is why I always try to use the same driver that I've pulled specs from for the in cabinet tests. Then I know what the driver specs are so if the sim is way off, it's because the sim inputs are wrong for representing the cab. This is how I end up confident that the inputs for the cab in HR are correct.

Were the "DB" specs used exactly those from the website? If so your particular NSW6021-6 driver might be somewhat different and those may not match that well. What I would recommend is use the factory specs but add in only the semi inductance parameters from the particular driver I measured. Usually the specs from the MFG's like B&C, Eminence, Faital, 18Sound, etc, are averaged over tests of many units and should be close enough. The semi inductance specs won't be exact for your driver but should give a closer match. Obviously the best thing to do is measure the exact driver being used. Driver measurement is prone to error and variation even then. Impedance measurements are very handy for comparing real result to sim. In some ways more useful / easier than the FR. No worries about mic placement for example.

The inputs in HR may not be as optimized as they should be for representing the cab. This can easily account for big differences. For example the Alpha measurements posted above show notable differences between any of the sims and the measured result in the 75-150Hz octave. It looks like the vent resonance is not at the frequency it is being sim'd to be and there is possibly some sort of internal resonance or chamber effect going on as well in that area. The V3 response is even more different. Not very close to the sim.

In a nutshell you have a bunch of variables that can all stack up and create large discrepancies between what was measured and what was sim'd.
If you have the capability an impedance sweep of the driver in free air and then in the cab would probably be the quickest easiest way to see how close the driver specs used in the sim and the cab sim itself are.

Thanks for the guidance Josh!

I will redo the graphs with factory specs plus your semi-inductance parameters.

I’ve been meaning to learn how to do impedance measurements for the quad dev. I can do them here as well once I am able.

I’m not pulling the driver out of the submax, but can on the alpha.

I actually thought the alpha response was close to sim. I guess you have a tighter tolerance on close. . I do suspect rear chamber resonance in the upper end of the response. The rear chamber is over 50” tall. I have two pillows fastened to the cabinet walls that help greatly, but probably don’t completely fix it.


I also thought the vent resonance was close. I was interested that it showed closer on the plugged alpha models vs the normal. Those two are the exact same model with port area reduced by 1/3.

I didn’t account for the volume of the plugged port, haven’t seen a straight answer on whether it should be or not.

Again, thanks for the help.

Chris
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post #12 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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@Ricci
I replaced the graphs in the original post with the data-bass spec models. They are now showing factory specs with data-bass semi-inductance parameters. The eminence specs are close enough to your measurements that this change made an almost imperceptible difference in the model.

I should add that the original point of this post was to demonstrate my observations on inductance modeling with pro drivers. That is, that pro drivers model much closer to measured with the normal inductance model than the lossy inductance model. Even massive-coil, long-throw versions like the NSW6021. I only included the data-bass parameters because they exist, and I like analyzing data.

The submax ended up being a useless data point, as I can’t see any model correlating closer than the other.

On that note, I should also add models for my ported HST’s and Mini Devastators. I will work on that now. They will only be normal vs lossy inductance, as data-bass doesn’t have measurements on those drivers.

Chris
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post #13 of 21 Old 04-10-2020, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Mini dev and HST added to initial post.

Chris
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post #14 of 21 Old 04-11-2020, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
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Mini dev and HST added to initial post.

Chris
HST 18 specs are at DB. 2 versions.

Agreed for the most part. It breaks down like this IMHO.
Use semi inductance specs if available. This a more accurate way to describe the driver behavior. For any driver including mids and tweeters. If it doesn't match well then the sim inputs aren't describing the speaker well or the measurement isn't under the conditions the sim is setup for.

If you don't have semi inductance available. Lossy LE sort of works for big coil, high stroke drivers. Especially those without shorting rings. Its a ballpark guess though so won't be that accurate but better than nothing.

Pro woofers it depends...if they have shorting rings just use normal 1kHz generic inductance. If they don't have shorting rings Lossy LE in HR might be better...Or not.

There are a bunch of old threads here and at DIY Audio on this with comparisons.

I'll send you an email about measuring impedance later. There are some good old threads on that too. All you need is a precision resistor, 2 channel sound card, bunch of cables or wire, REW or LIMP and maybe an amplifier ( preferred). For driver testing add in some ferrite hobby magnets, a digital scale and a few clamps and heavy objects.

Edit: I guess my definition of a close match is probably different than most. Good point. I see 3 or 4 dB differences though.

Also how close to a wall is your Submax? Is it in a corner? If the sub is real close to walls it will still affect the close Mic.

Last edited by Ricci; 04-11-2020 at 07:08 AM.
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post #15 of 21 Old 04-11-2020, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
HST 18 specs are at DB. 2 versions.

Agreed for the most part. It breaks down like this IMHO.
Use semi inductance specs if available. This a more accurate way to describe the driver behavior. For any driver including mids and tweeters. If it doesn't match well then the sim inputs aren't describing the speaker well or the measurement isn't under the conditions the sim is setup for.

If you don't have semi inductance available. Lossy LE sort of works for big coil, high stroke drivers. Especially those without shorting rings. Its a ballpark guess though so won't be that accurate but better than nothing.

Pro woofers it depends...if they have shorting rings just use normal 1kHz generic inductance. If they don't have shorting rings Lossy LE in HR might be better...Or not.

There are a bunch of old threads here and at DIY Audio on this with comparisons.

I'll send you an email about measuring impedance later. There are some good old threads on that too. All you need is a precision resistor, 2 channel sound card, bunch of cables or wire, REW or LIMP and maybe an amplifier ( preferred). For driver testing add in some ferrite hobby magnets, a digital scale and a few clamps and heavy objects.

Edit: I guess my definition of a close match is probably different than most. Good point. I see 3 or 4 dB differences though.

Also how close to a wall is your Submax? Is it in a corner? If the sub is real close to walls it will still affect the close Mic.

Thanks again Josh

Yeah, I know the HST mkI and mkII specs are on DB. I’m not sure they’re applicable, since my HST’s are mkIII. Also, my particular pair is built on a heavy sundown basket with a slightly larger-diameter cone.
I believe the mkII and mkIII motor are quite similar, I’ll add in the inductance parameters and see what happens.

Any idea why the semi-inductance is cutting off the peaks on the devastators? Am I entering something incorrectly?

Yes, I know the Alpha isn’t matching sim well above qw tune. I’m assuming cabinet resonance there, but really no idea.

Submax is in a corner now. However, the close mic was taken with it out in the room. Thats why I didn’t retake sweeps without the hpf on.

Chris
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post #16 of 21 Old 04-13-2020, 10:55 AM
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Thanks again Josh

Yeah, I know the HST mkI and mkII specs are on DB. I’m not sure they’re applicable, since my HST’s are mkIII. Also, my particular pair is built on a heavy sundown basket with a slightly larger-diameter cone.
I believe the mkII and mkIII motor are quite similar, I’ll add in the inductance parameters and see what happens.

Any idea why the semi-inductance is cutting off the peaks on the devastators? Am I entering something incorrectly?

Yes, I know the Alpha isn’t matching sim well above qw tune. I’m assuming cabinet resonance there, but really no idea.

Submax is in a corner now. However, the close mic was taken with it out in the room. Thats why I didn’t retake sweeps without the hpf on.

Chris
Not sure on the submax. I thought maybe if it was in a corner it would account for some of it. Since it was out in the room that can be ruled out. Not sure. Might be that the sim just isn't as good a match for the cab.

Try the ver 2 HST semi specs. It might work better than generic lossy LE if the Dcr is close to the same. If the motors and coils are the same it should be close.

Do you have the HR inputs for your Dev and a simple cab schematic?
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Not sure on the submax. I thought maybe if it was in a corner it would account for some of it. Since it was out in the room that can be ruled out. Not sure. Might be that the sim just isn't as good a match for the cab.

Try the ver 2 HST semi specs. It might work better than generic lossy LE if the Dcr is close to the same. If the motors and coils are the same it should be close.

Do you have the HR inputs for your Dev and a simple cab schematic?

Thanks Josh.

I’ll try out the semi-inductance on the HST. I’m not sure if/how motor and coil changed from mkII to mkIII.

I’m actually just getting my build thread up for the Alpha. I believe all that info is in the first post, and the link to the design.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ont-panel.html

Chris
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post #18 of 21 Old 04-14-2020, 11:44 AM
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I’m actually just getting my build thread up for the Alpha. I believe all that info is in the first post, and the link to the design.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ont-panel.html

Chris
So...The measurements here in the first post are from this Alpha deal? One that you built using an NSW6021?

I meant do you have the HR inputs that are being used to model it? Also is there a picture of the lay out with dimensions?
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post #19 of 21 Old 04-14-2020, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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So...The measurements here in the first post are from this Alpha deal? One that you built using an NSW6021?

I meant do you have the HR inputs that are being used to model it? Also is there a picture of the lay out with dimensions?

Yes, the measurements labeled alpha and Alpha plugged in the first post are from the Alpha cabinet I’m working on the build thread for. I’m just behind on build threads currently.
Yes, its loaded with an eminence NSW6021.

Sorry, double link to get to the hr inputs. Its a link in the build thread. I’ll repost it here:
BMD ALPHA 21" (NSW HCR) 60"x30"x26"

The cad pic and cutlist should give you all dimensions. If not, let me know.


The v3 measurements are from a different cabinet, a front loaded horn loaded with a different NSW6021. I haven’t yet started the build thread for that one. Here’s the design:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post45063122

Chris
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post #20 of 21 Old 04-23-2020, 08:10 AM
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off topic..but what is everyone using to power these with? im running my pair off an NX-6000..just curious how much i am missing out on by not having more power..

Receiver : Pioneer Elite SC-95
Front Speakers: 3 DIYSG 1099's
Surround Speakers:2 DIYSG Volt 10's Atmos: 4 DIYSG Volt 6's
Subwoofers: Dual Eminence NSW 21's in Cyclops enclosures w/Inuke 6000
Nearfield: 4 B-52 SP-1804 18s w/Inuke 6000DSP
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post #21 of 21 Old 04-23-2020, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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off topic..but what is everyone using to power these with? im running my pair off an NX-6000..just curious how much i am missing out on by not having more power..

I’m running mine off a bridged crown dci 4/1250. Should be 2500w per driver. I don’t own an inuke though, so no comparison.
I know when pushing the alpha a bit during testing, I got chuffing from both qw and port, and was getting enough coil smell that I backed off quick. Really don’t want to toast a nsw.

Chris
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