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post #1 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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What subs for HT on a budget?

A friend asked me to build him two subs for his new HT where SPL, LFE and "ooomph" is more important than sound quality, however it should sound good, but dont have to be really high end.

Max budget is 10.000 NOK which translates to around $1000, however with taxes and shipping it's more like a $750 budget in the US, and that should include everything, drivers, sheeting, amp(s) and "stuff"

Size is not a problem, so i am thinking horns or simular, but i have not followed the trends after i built my Lilwreckers som years ago, so any suggestions will be apreciated.

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post #2 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 07:42 AM
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Does your budget include the amp? I'd say purchase the Lavoce 21" driver and build the Devastator LFE or Alpha
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post #3 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 08:15 AM
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What subs for HT on a budget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Does your budget include the amp? I'd say purchase the Lavoce 21" driver and build the Devastator LFE or Alpha

Not sure how you’re going to accomplish that for $750 for two including material and amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
A friend asked me to build him two subs for his new HT where SPL, LFE and "ooomph" is more important than sound quality, however it should sound good, but dont have to be really high end.

Max budget is 10.000 NOK which translates to around $1000, however with taxes and shipping it's more like a $750 budget in the US, and that should include everything, drivers, sheeting, amp(s) and "stuff"

Size is not a problem, so i am thinking horns or simular, but i have not followed the trends after i built my Lilwreckers som years ago, so any suggestions will be apreciated.

Since size is no consideration, should be able to do 4 VBSS. Group them as doubles if needed to meet two sub definition. Up the budget to $1000 and you should be able to do 8.

You could put the pa460 drivers in mini dev’s for more midbass kick. Material cost will go way up though, for a moderate gain.

If you want to go horn, a pair of F20’s should be doable.
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post #4 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I should be able to build two mini Devastators with the cheap Dayton 18", but i have no idea how it would compare to the F20's or VBSS...

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post #5 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
I should be able to build two mini Devastators with the cheap Dayton 18", but i have no idea how it would compare to the F20's or VBSS...

Mini dev vs vbss. Pa460. Same input power.

Black is mini dev.


Chris
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post #6 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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And the guy (with no patience what so ever) just ordered two PA460's

But the Behringer NX3000 is all sold out here, and not shipping until september :O any other good, cheap amps out there? DSP is not required if we go for the VBSS i suppose (no need for a HPF, and the FR can be adjusted with what he have).

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post #7 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Not sure how you’re going to accomplish that for $750 for two including material and amp.
I'm not looking to accomplish anything. I already have my subs built
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post #8 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
And the guy (with no patience what so ever) just ordered two PA460's

But the Behringer NX3000 is all sold out here, and not shipping until september :O any other good, cheap amps out there? DSP is not required if we go for the VBSS i suppose (no need for a HPF, and the FR can be adjusted with what he have).

Uhh, the vbss definitely needs a hpf.

Chris
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post #9 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
I'm not looking to accomplish anything. I already have my subs built

Impossible, everyone needs more.

Smartass

Chris
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post #10 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
And the guy (with no patience what so ever) just ordered two PA460's

But the Behringer NX3000 is all sold out here, and not shipping until september :O any other good, cheap amps out there? DSP is not required if we go for the VBSS i suppose (no need for a HPF, and the FR can be adjusted with what he have).
The VBSS relies (heavily, depending on tune) on DSP, and a HPF is needed. Take a look at the settings file in the first post of the thread.

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post #11 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Oh, i just supposed it wasn't needed beeing a ported design...

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post #12 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
Oh, i just supposed it wasn't needed beeing a ported design...

All ported need hpf, as the driver unloads below tune. Sealed don’t need the hpf.

Chris
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post #13 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 01:07 PM
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Amazon has the Nx3000d for $400.

You definitely need/want the DSP.

That should bring you to about $600. $400 left should be plenty to build the devastators. But ported cabs are good for that driver too. Doesn’t have to be VBSS. You can build them a little larger to get some more low end. Full Marty size should work well, but you can’t use the VBSS dsp settings with that. You would have to come up with your own settings.
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post #14 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 01:36 PM
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What subs for HT on a budget?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Amazon has the Nx3000d for $400.

You definitely need/want the DSP.

That should bring you to about $600. $400 left should be plenty to build the devastators. But ported cabs are good for that driver too. Doesn’t have to be VBSS. You can build them a little larger to get some more low end. Full Marty size should work well, but you can’t use the VBSS dsp settings with that. You would have to come up with your own settings.

I thought the vbss was sized to hit excursion limits on Inuke power? Additional volume shouldn’t net low-end.

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post #15 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 05:22 PM
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12 cubes gains you 3-4db at 20hz over a 7 cube box. The bigger box is more efficient, so it takes less excursion to reach a given spl. So your 9mm gets you more. Only down low below 30hz. Above 30 you gain nothing and even loose a tiny bit up top.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
12 cubes gains you 3-4db at 20hz over a 7 cube box. The bigger box is more efficient, so it takes less excursion to reach a given spl. So your 9mm gets you more. Only down low below 30hz. Above 30 you gain nothing and even loose a tiny bit up top.
Interesting.

Do you have a FR graph that shows this comparison? Also, at what tuning frequency for each cab size ?
Thanks
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post #17 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
The bigger box is more efficient, so it takes less excursion to reach a given spl. So your 9mm gets you more.
The bigger box is more efficient because there is less air spring pressure for the woofer to fight against. So you have more cone excursion (and therefore output) for a given input. Max output is however still tied to available excursion.
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post #18 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
The bigger box is more efficient because there is less air spring pressure for the woofer to fight against. So you have more cone excursion (and therefore output) for a given input. Max output is however still tied to available excursion.
Thanks, I misunderstood how efficiency worked.

But max output seems to be effected by box size. The excursion doesn't change, but a bigger box adds more spl potential, down low anyhow. I assume the bigger box somehow adds more output from the port.

Here is the max spl tab in winisd for the PA460 in 7 cubic feet vs 12 cubic feet.


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post #19 of 43 Old 04-12-2020, 10:25 PM
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From John Murphy's website:

"The following mathematical relationship between these parameters can be found in Small's paper :

Closed-Box Loudspeaker Systems
published in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society
Vol. 20 No. 10 (DEC 1972)

Efficiency = k * f(3)^3 * V(B)
(where k is the so called "efficiency constant")
(f(3) is in Hz, and V(B) is in cubic meters)

for closed boxes: k = 2 * 10^-6

for vented boxes: k = 4 * 10^-6"

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If you look at the SPL graph and adjust input power down on the larger enclosure until the output level near port tuning is equal to the smaller enclosure (~40%) then switch over to cone excursion you'll see that excursion at port tuning is also equal to one another.

Another way to look at it is to change xmax to 1mm, you'll find that the larger enclosure doesn't give you anymore max output then the smaller one as xmax is always hit before the rated input power is reached.

I choose the volume of the VBSS because I felt it was the best compromise of physical enclosure size and utilizing the displacement of the PA460 with the power provided by the inuke 3000. A larger enclosure will give you more output near port tune where the extra displacement available at the excursion minimum can be taken advantage of. That said I also think a larger enclosure will also allow the PA460 to be pushed too far around 25-35hz. Damage is unlikely but the woofer has a tendency to bias in one direction at certain frequencies quickly moving the coil out of the gap and into heavy distortion. I may try and get a video of that with the driver free air. I can't recall which frequencies the effect is most pronounced but IIRC it biases inwards at some frequencies and outwards at others.
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post #21 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 03:40 AM
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I do think I remember running into excursion problems when modeling for my VBSS. The driver definitely gets into trouble at lower frequencies with power applied. It seems that port velocity was also too high at this point if I remember correctly.
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post #22 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 04:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Amazon has the Nx3000d for $400.

You definitely need/want the DSP.

That should bring you to about $600. $400 left should be plenty to build the devastators. But ported cabs are good for that driver too. Doesn’t have to be VBSS. You can build them a little larger to get some more low end. Full Marty size should work well, but you can’t use the VBSS dsp settings with that. You would have to come up with your own settings.
Yeah, but thats in the US, 2 PA460's shipped to Norway is $360, then you can add 25% taxes to that, the same goes for the amp.

However i have been thinking of swapping out my own Inuke 3kDSP, so he can get one cheap.

Can a Nuke 3000 run to Mini Devs in parallel from a single channel to a decent level? The guy wants to use the other channel to run some other subs he have...

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post #23 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 04:47 AM
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Just to make sure you are aware, Roadrune, the inuke series was replaced by the 'NU' series. They are the same amplifier with a prettier face, as far as I know. If you are seeing the inuke sold out, look for the corresponding NU amp (i.e. NU3000 DSP or whatever it is)

Enjoy the builds!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
Just to make sure you are aware, Roadrune, the inuke series was replaced by the 'NU' series. They are the same amplifier with a prettier face, as far as I know. If you are seeing the inuke sold out, look for the corresponding NU amp (i.e. NU3000 DSP or whatever it is)

Enjoy the builds!
Yeah, i know they have been replaced by the NX, thanks.

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post #25 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 05:10 AM
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I was under the impression the NX series replaced the NU series.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
Yeah, but thats in the US, 2 PA460's shipped to Norway is $360, then you can add 25% taxes to that, the same goes for the amp.

However i have been thinking of swapping out my own Inuke 3kDSP, so he can get one cheap.

Can a Nuke 3000 run to Mini Devs in parallel from a single channel to a decent level? The guy wants to use the other channel to run some other subs he have...

Yes, the 3k can run 1, 2, or 4 pa460’s per channel
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post #27 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadrune View Post
Yeah, i know they have been replaced by the NX, thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
I was under the impression the NX series replaced the NU series.
Sorry about that! I should know better than to post before finishing my first cup of coffee!
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post #28 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heide264 View Post
Sorry about that! I should know better than to post before finishing my first cup of coffee!
Ah man, can't forget the coffee...it gets the morning started

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post #29 of 43 Old 04-13-2020, 05:40 PM
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Ah man, can't forget the coffee...it gets the afternoon started
Fixed it for you... lol
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post #30 of 43 Old 04-14-2020, 02:25 AM - Thread Starter
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It seems to me the Mini Dev V4 is the best option here, are you experts agreeing?

Also, reading the Dev thread i found a lot of mentions of BOSS, what's that?

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