1x 18sound 18LW2400 vs 3x JBL Stage 1210 SUB - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 19 Old 05-09-2020, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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1x 18sound 18LW2400 vs 3x JBL Stage 1210 SUB

I'm playing around in Winisd Pro to see what would give me most output in a ported box. To keep things simple, I took a 300L box (approx 10 cub.feet) and 31Hz tuning (for music).

1x 18sound 18LW2400 = 330 euros
3x JBL Stage 1210 = 195 euros

I limited signal input in order not to pass Xmax limits of all drivers.

The 3 JBL's in 1 ported box output about 4db more in the subwoofer range. Am I doing something wrong?
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NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
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Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD

Last edited by Jan3; 05-10-2020 at 11:53 AM.
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post #2 of 19 Old 05-11-2020, 08:16 PM
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the stage 1210 has rms power handling of 250 watts so that may limit output before excursion for extended duty sessions.

the lw2400 is designed for extended duty sessions so has good cooling and high power handling.

the damping on the lw2400 may help make it sound a little better in a ported cab too.
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post #3 of 19 Old 05-12-2020, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the stage 1210 has rms power handling of 250 watts so that may limit output before excursion for extended duty sessions.

the lw2400 is designed for extended duty sessions so has good cooling and high power handling.

the damping on the lw2400 may help make it sound a little better in a ported cab too.
Thanks @LTD02 . So you mean the 18Sound is just more solid? Or their figures are more conservative? For the price of the 18Sound I could add 2 more JBL's even, and stay way under 250W per driver. I understand it's apples and pears, but still...

NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
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post #4 of 19 Old 05-12-2020, 06:56 PM
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i missed your signature the first time. with 2x21DS, why looking at the stage 1210? :-)

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post #5 of 19 Old 05-13-2020, 05:00 AM - Thread Starter
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i missed your signature the first time. with 2x21DS, why looking at the stage 1210? :-)
hehe. You helped me designing the 21DS 2 years ago . I'm moving in 3-4 months to a new house. the 2 21DS should get 4 brothers (cheaper Lavoce SAN214.50) in my basement, and the +- 3 stage 1210 are for the living room to support my bookshelf speakers 37-100Hz (less critical system). Being small drivers would allow me to build them inside existing furniture cabinets. I was just surprised to see how much output they give for such a low price.

Now that I have your attention, what do you think for the 6 21" subs for my (18Lx15Wx10.8H) basement: absolute priority is to avoid room modes. The ceiling is too low to put 3 subs of the same size on top of each other. So either
1. I lay the upper subs horizontally in my baffle wall (see attachment). Ports will be orientated differently and the drivers will not be equidistant.
2. I throw away the 2 existing boxes and create all new (attach)

I prefer to do it correctly. Everything will be in a baffle wall. Room modes are a priority, I'll have only 1 seating row.
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post #6 of 19 Old 05-13-2020, 08:55 AM
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ah! :-) your sub configuration looks good. i'd go with a side/up firing approach to keep wind off the screen. not sure if you need 6, 4 should do, but i'm not going to argue with myself about more subs. :-) you may wish to leave a little wiggle room so you can experiment with toe-in on the 4722's.
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post #7 of 19 Old 05-13-2020, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
ah! :-) your sub configuration looks good. i'd go with a side/up firing approach to keep wind off the screen. not sure if you need 6, 4 should do, but i'm not going to argue with myself about more subs. :-) you may wish to leave a little wiggle room so you can experiment with toe-in on the 4722's.
Only 4?? Please tell me it won't be enough (tuning = 18hz)
Interesting what you told about keeping wind off the screen, which was 1 of my concerns as I want to keep the AT screen max 3 inches away from the subs. Not sure if we're talking about the same: on the drawings all subs are equal, with slot port in front. I suppose you suggested making a side firing port slot? Does that have any negative/bad phase effect when some subs are side and others front firing? I want to use room mode calculators to minimize room modes.
I mean: do only the LF drivers's position count for room modes, or also slot port position/location...

Good remark about the 4722's, I planned to toe them in towards MLP, just didnt want to make the drawing too complicated.

NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD
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post #8 of 19 Old 05-13-2020, 07:53 PM
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"Only 4?? Please tell me it won't be enough"

in that case, 4 subs will definitely not be enough. 6 is the only way to go.

"I suppose you suggested making a side firing port slot?"

yes. that is what i was suggesting. that won't impact the sound at all (or the room modes in any practical way), but it will reduce the amount of screen shaking that you may see.

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post #9 of 19 Old 05-14-2020, 04:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"Only 4?? Please tell me it won't be enough"

in that case, 4 subs will definitely not be enough. 6 is the only way to go.
Who am I to doubt your expertise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"I suppose you suggested making a side firing port slot?"

yes. that is what i was suggesting. that won't impact the sound at all (or the room modes in any practical way), but it will reduce the amount of screen shaking that you may see.
That's good news. I knew it's ok for the sound, but I wasn't 100% sure regarding to phase and thus room modes. Then I let my existing 2 subs front-firing (under the AT screen) and the other 4 side firing.
Edit: 1 thing... side firing + baffle wall Eh... can you put the port behind a baffle wall??

One final question that keeps popping up in my mind: go for devastators instead of ported subs or not (it's now or never). I probably would only gain SPL above 35Hz.

NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD

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post #10 of 19 Old 05-18-2020, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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@LTD02 would you mind thinking about the side firing - baffle wall?

NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD
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post #11 of 19 Old 05-18-2020, 06:00 PM
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i think you are already on a good track. it just comes down to dimensions that you have to work with.

allowing for the toe-in that you may wish to experiment with, and about 3 inches or so behind the screen to driver, how much depth do you have/can you make?

depending on how tall the subs end up, you may wish to raise the 4722's up a little more than a port height and fire under them. firing under the 4722's will effectively length the port somewhat, but that won't be the end of the world.

if the ports need a vertical port extension that is an option. the specific details of the port size and length will obviously depend on the cab dimensions.

how large can you go?



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post #12 of 19 Old 05-18-2020, 06:27 PM
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this one is approx 10 c.f. net and tuned to around 15-16hz as a rough starting point.



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post #13 of 19 Old 05-19-2020, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=LTD02;59669200]i think you are already on a good track. it just comes down to dimensions that you have to work with.

allowing for the toe-in that you may wish to experiment with, and about 3 inches or so behind the screen to driver, how much depth do you have/can you make?

depending on how tall the subs end up, you may wish to raise the 4722's up a little more than a port height and fire under them. firing under the 4722's will effectively length the port somewhat, but that won't be the end of the world.
if the ports need a vertical port extension that is an option. the specific details of the port size and length will obviously depend on the cab dimensions.
how large can you go?

Thanks @LTD02 ! That's an interesting concept putting the 4722's a bit higher!
Just from curiosity: ok, my baffle wall will be not hermetically closed, but IF it would be the case, can you fire your port behind the baffle wall?

Quick calculation: wall is 500cm wide. Deduct 3x 4722's = 500 - 229 = 271cm width left for subs = 106.7 inches, so let's take 50" width per sub.

My existing 2 subs (tuning 18hz): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post55153726
I suppose B&C's and Lavoce san214.50 can be used without any adjustments.

What do you think of sketch attached: green frame = AT screen / blue = plasterboard baffle wall

I can go with:
width = 48" (MDF sheets here are 122cm or 48.03" width)
height = 40"
depth = 18" (4722 = 17.75)
I wouldnt go lower than 16hz tuning in order not to loose too much SPL higher up.

Thank you so much for your kind help!
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NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD

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post #14 of 19 Old 05-23-2020, 02:27 AM
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i would not fire the ports behind a baffle wall like that.

just use that space for fiberglass/rockwool/cotton absorption. fabric stretched over wood frame can hide it all, but still allow the subs to breathe.

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post #15 of 19 Old 05-23-2020, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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i would not fire the ports behind a baffle wall like that.

just use that space for fiberglass/rockwool/cotton absorption. fabric stretched over wood frame can hide it all, but still allow the subs to breathe.
ok that's helpful input, thanks. Never used a side firing slot before.

48x40x18 Boxes, single baffle front, 18mm MDF would be 20 cubic feet outside, or 17.1 after reduction of wall thickness 0.75inch
after reduction of serious bracing, slot and driver... about 15 cub feet / 425 liters??

I only put high pass filter, but I'm not sure which one to choose.
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NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD

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post #16 of 19 Old 05-23-2020, 06:06 PM
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that looks good to me. nice job.

butterworth, 2nd order, 12db/octave, 1 hz below tuning is what i'd suggest for a protective high pass.

also, be sure to consider some sort of mounting/safety rigging just to keep everyone safe.

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post #17 of 19 Old 05-23-2020, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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that looks good to me. nice job.

butterworth, 2nd order, 12db/octave, 1 hz below tuning is what i'd suggest for a protective high pass.

also, be sure to consider some sort of mounting/safety rigging just to keep everyone safe.
Thank you sir!
Yes, we'll make sure everyone is safe. One day we'll need an upgrade LOL.

NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD
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post #18 of 19 Old 05-23-2020, 06:46 PM
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if you want to have a baffle wall and have the port fire out the sides, there is no reason why that can't be done too.

ports do not have to be "inside" ported cabs.







stacked, and mirrored. :-)

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post #19 of 19 Old 05-24-2020, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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wow! Haha you are very artistic.

edit @LTD02 :
I can see your point, though at the lowest horizontal level (LCR), the side firing port from 1 sub would run below the 4722 towards the other sub. This is cool but the air coming out from the port would have no free space because the next sub is located there. Unless there is a large gap.

(sorry for my drawing amateurism)

I might also need to use more MDF (longer pieces).
The subs are already 15 cubic feet, I don't think the slight volume increase by putting the slot outside will help.

Questions I have:
1. Is a 'real' baffle wall (double plasterboard) better than using neighboring speakers as "wall". In my case, horizontally there are 5 boxes next to each other, so (almost) no place in between to make a wall.
2. is a baffle wall only good for LCR speakers or also for subs?
3. How far from the driver is the wall effective: subs have a 48" wide front baffle. Extending that with plasterboard --> any effect?
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NAD T758v3, 2x 21DS115 ported, QSC 1150 LCR, QSC SR-1020 surrounds, moving by the end of the year to a new 15Wx18Lx10.8 concrete basement.
Ncore 252MP, Behringer A800, Crown XLS1502
Soon JBL 4722n LCR with updated 2453SL CD

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