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post #1 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Talking DIY Danley SH-50/SH-60 blend (synergy horn)

Hi guys,
Long time lurker and researcher on this site and this is my first post so be kind.
About two years ago I became enamored with Danleys Synergy horn and decided I wanted to build one. It seemed a lofty goal at the time. I started my speaker building journey converting so Elemetal Designs subs upgraded with Stereo Integrity 18" and some Inukes. I then built a midbass module with a JBL 2242. Last was a pair of DIY volts with a PRV CD and the Eminence beta10cx, this is where I started to learn crossovers.
Then came the synergy horns. My brother is a carpenter so I knew we could build the boxes and my goal was to be able to make a cost effective replica of the SH-50.
Through reading a million other posts I decided on the PRV 290py-b from SpeakerScotts build as the CD, Celestion TF0510MR as the mids (Danley uses the 4" version) I couldn't find them so I bought the 5" and figured I would make it work. Now I know that you actually can find the 4" versions (slaps self in forehead). I used what I have. I didn't want to spend a ton on the faitalpro drives for the 12" woofers as Danley does so I narrowed it down to 2 choices. Eminence Delta 12LFC and Eminence Delta 12B. I wanted the speaker to go down as low as possible and still retain a decent sensitivity. The Delta 12 LFC fits the bill. I can get to around 45Hz with authority. The 12B can be used and sensitivity will skyrocket but you will only get to 80Hz or so and I wanted to be able to use it alone without a sub though I plan to build one using the JBL 2242 I have (that will be a separate thread).
Pic 1 is during the cone design phase which was the hardest part of the build. This is revision 4. I made 2 versions based on speaker scotts design then scrapped it because of several issues. My original design was to copy the Danley horn but I thought it would be too difficult. Version 3 my brother the carpenter made a a 60 (Sh-60) degree pyramid though it was out of scrap and had two different thickness woods so I couldn't use it. I found a great cut calculator in another thread somewhere else and V4 is what you see which has great seams and is ridiculously strong. We did 60 degrees as 50 was too narrow for the 5"mid.

The entrance was made using the compound miter saw and then sanding off a few degrees to get totally flat (the numbers for the cuts are weird like 27.9 degrees so its not exact like a CNC machine. We left it smaller than 1" so I could smooth the entrance. Midrange taps were the same as danley 3/4" at 3.5" from CD and instead of using frustrums I tapered the holes with a step hole bit he had and then dremeled them smooth. Woofer taps and ports were 2.5" hole saw using drill press at 10.5" and 14.5" respectively. Pilot holes through all 4 boards were used for consistency. The woofer taps are about 1/2" in from the side walls, this is where the 4" mid helps and I could have pushed them out to the walls. With the wavelength of the woofer I figured it shouldn't make a huge difference. I still have to frustrumize the woofer taps with a router will likely us a 45degree bit to take off half of the port.
For the secondary flare we added 20 degrees (100 degrees total), retrospectively I believe danley doubles the flare rate but this is what I found and worked for the box we built. It helps with lobing and beaming. A 1.5" lip was put on flush to be able to mount the cone to some wood bracing placed on the inside of the box. My bro wrapped me a box around the cone. Danley gets away with a triangular box as the VAS is much smaller than drivers I could find. Final dimensions 29.75x29.75x22.5
Pic 3 in truck for some perspective. Pic 4+5 is after using PL for the seams and wood filler to smooth the inside of the cone and the CD entry. Pic 6 is with drivers on (still missing one woofer). Pic 6 is obviously a sweep.
Speakers were wired and sweeps were performed using REW for frd files and zma files using a DATS V2. I trialed a basic crossover and a LeCleach crossover as the goal is the make them passive eventually (using my sub amps currently, inukes). I want to keep cost down so getting them perfectly phase perfect isn't a priority. I haven't dialed in delays to see if it makes a huge difference in clarity. That will be for this week. Goal is to dial in some cheap crossovers that work well so I can build a second one... grins :-) So far a 2nd order on CD, 1st orders on mid and 2nd on woofer work well and give me 3rd-4th orders with the natural acoustic rolloff. I read through bwaslos cosyne method for quasi phase perfect crossover but I don't know how to use PCD or virtuixcad well enough to go that crazy. I can post frd/zma for anyone that wants to play with a different crossover that may be better as this is my weakest area. I can't figure out how to model CD compensation and whether it is worth it.
Thanks for reading and feel free to ask questions... - Dave
Oh and my listening impressions, same as speaker scott. They are beyond my expectations. There is something magic in the design if someone like me can make a build and have it sound that good. With one the clarity, evenness of tone on and off axis and raw horsepower of these are amazing. The directionality is incredible they are very quiet standing behind them. I did demo's in my backyard on 2 acres well wooded and only got to 50 volume on the laptop as I thought the cops would show up. I will open them up at my brothers farm as he has 10 acres. These are intended to be outdoor speakers for gatherings if we ever have one again (stupid COVID).
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Last edited by dpdpdp; 05-18-2020 at 09:06 AM.
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post #2 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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anybody have any advice on whether they think phase perfect crossovers are worth the effort?
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 12:07 PM
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Kudos, very nice looking build.
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post #4 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gil393 View Post
Kudos, very nice looking build.
Thanks they are primer white now, I will Duratex them then paint the box black and the cone bright blue. When I finish I will upload a pic. Still have some finishing work on the boxes before paint.
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 04:02 PM
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Look great! I’m sure a lot of work went into them.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-18-2020, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by dpdpdp View Post
Hi guys,
Long time lurker and researcher on this site and this is my first post so be kind.
About two years ago I became enamored with Danleys Synergy horn and decided I wanted to build one. [snip]....
First of all... EXCELLENT JOB SIR.... and this build has me thinking again about building a set of these.....


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
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post #7 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 04:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
First of all... EXCELLENT JOB SIR.... and this build has me thinking again about building a set of these.....


Juju



Let me know if you want me to put together a more detailed build guide and I can. It is a bunch of math, having the right tools and some serious woodworking skills. Use scrap first and aniticipate more than one build.
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by dpdpdp View Post
Let me know if you want me to put together a more detailed build guide and I can. It is a bunch of math, having the right tools and some serious woodworking skills. Use scrap first and aniticipate more than one build.
@dpdpdp
That would be great.... I have built one in the past but it saw an ugly accident and was completely crushed and I never replaced it. Your help would much appreciated.... I used Bill Walso's SynergyCalc to get the angles needed for my first one and it worked really well. Your input could provide a simpler solution and/or easier construction method than the Walso method. I am fully aware that several prototypes are needed to get the final result.... it was my final that saw it's demise. This time, I would build a 2way mid/CD horn as I already have the bass section covered by a VBSS. I am looking forward to your input and thank you for your help.


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
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post #9 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
@dpdpdp
That would be great.... I have built one in the past but it saw an ugly accident and was completely crushed and I never replaced it. Your help would much appreciated.... I used Bill Walso's SynergyCalc to get the angles needed for my first one and it worked really well. Your input could provide a simpler solution and/or easier construction method than the Walso method. I am fully aware that several prototypes are needed to get the final result.... it was my final that saw it's demise. This time, I would build a 2way mid/CD horn as I already have the bass section covered by a VBSS. I am looking forward to your input and thank you for your help.


Juju
I'd be interested in a detailed build. I've always wanted to build a synergy horn. Thanks for sharing.
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post #10 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 11:12 AM
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I'd be interested in a detailed build. I've always wanted to build a synergy horn. Thanks for sharing.
Here is what I have to get you started..... http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/Synergy%20Calc%20V5.p
You can change the numbers to get the profile that you want in the attachment...


Juju
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 11:18 AM
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anybody have any advice on whether they think phase perfect crossovers are worth the effort?
what a nice build you have going, really nice looking . Great thread
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 01:52 PM
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Let me know if you want me to put together a more detailed build guide and I can. It is a bunch of math, having the right tools and some serious woodworking skills. Use scrap first and aniticipate more than one build.

I'd be interested.
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post #13 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,
I have some tweaking to the woofer and midrange taps and the crossovers before I have a finished product. I will be painting them as well soon. This week I am going to build a matching size ~25Hz sub with a JBL 2242 as I have the driver available. If all goes well I can start a write up on the woodworking next week. Thanks for the nice comments I am trying to tweak them to get a better frequency response and phase. The goal is to get over 75% of the Danley for $500 in drivers and wood before the crossover costs (which may be a lot). I have no comparison as I haven't heard a SH-50 but I can tell you these blow away all the gear I have and are comparable to high end live PA sound at concerts.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 05:46 PM
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It will likely be cheaper to use an active crossover. The SH50 has like 30 parts in the xo. So 60 for a pair. That ain’t cheap.

It’s not like you need high powered amps. Just 6 channels and some form of DSP.
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It will likely be cheaper to use an active crossover. The SH50 has like 30 parts in the xo. So 60 for a pair. That ain’t cheap.

It’s not like you need high powered amps. Just 6 channels and some form of DSP.



I am currently running them with a 2nd order on CD 1st order on both sides of mid and 2nd order on woofer and it measures good enough for me and sound great too. I'm probably not going to go phase perfect as it is above my pay grade. I will have to price out amps and a minidsp and see what makes more sense. I can adjust delays with a mini dsp and did currently with my inuke and I can't tell a huge difference though I will play more with them this week.
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post #16 of 24 Old 05-19-2020, 06:54 PM
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Hi guys,
I have no comparison as I haven't heard a SH-50
Where are you located? I'll offer an audition.

Joseph

mods, can we have a 'dislike' button ?
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post #17 of 24 Old 05-20-2020, 04:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Where are you located? I'll offer an audition.

Joseph



I'm in Connecticut so I don't think I'll be making that drive anytime soon but thanks for the offer. One day I would love to hear a pair.
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She got a brother....
JBL 2242 in 8.1 cubic feet with a full length slot port 2.5 inches tall tuned to ~33 Hz. Here is the model. Some EQ for the bottom end similar to the 4645C JBL makes. Excursion is over xmax with 800 watts but that's what the JBL 4645c models with so I mocked it off of that and did a slightly higher tuning for a flatter response and I lose a few Hz at the bottom but this is for music not HT. Matches well with the synergy horn crossed at 80 Hz, I may go higher. Have to do some sweeps to see which is up to the job better and what sound better. If I stick to 1/4 wavelength the most I should cross at is 100Hz. Super happy with this project. Best sounding system I have heard aside from being live at concerts with hundreds of thousands of watts.
I will frame the driver with a picture frame of 45 degree pieces to match the synergy horn in looks. Need to finish the bracing internally but overall super happy as I said.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpdpdp View Post
She got a brother....
JBL 2242 in 8.1 cubic feet with a full length slot port 2.5 inches tall tuned to ~33 Hz. Here is the model. Some EQ for the bottom end similar to the 4645C JBL makes. Excursion is over xmax with 800 watts but that's what the JBL 4645c models with so I mocked it off of that and did a slightly higher tuning for a flatter response and I lose a few Hz at the bottom but this is for music not HT. Matches well with the synergy horn crossed at 80 Hz, I may go higher. Have to do some sweeps to see which is up to the job better and what sound better. If I stick to 1/4 wavelength the most I should cross at is 100Hz. Super happy with this project. Best sounding system I have heard aside from being live at concerts with hundreds of thousands of watts.
I will frame the driver with a picture frame of 45 degree pieces to match the synergy horn in looks. Need to finish the bracing internally but overall super happy as I said.
What XO points are you using for your synergy?


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
Wish List: Anthology http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Anthology_1.html

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post #20 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 04:19 AM - Thread Starter
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originally i played with staggered points using LeCleach's crossover for minimum phase. Unfortunately this lead to some of the 1/4 wave notch being apparent in the top crossover. I played with different asymmetrical slopes and am currently at a 1200 and 350 4th order acoustic BW which turns out to be 2nd order on CD, 1st order on both sides of mid and 2nd order on woofer. Crossovers aren't my strong suit but I will play a lot before settling on a final crossover. I will likely go for a flat FR with minimal phase changes. I wouldn't say I can hear a huge difference in all of them and they sound great for music no matter what I play.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 06:30 PM
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That is very cool. Sent me down the rabbit hole. Did you use the synergy calc xls? Currently building titans and couldn’t help wondering how an experimental two way synergy would sound on top, especially since you used 350 as your lower xo. Really interesting project.
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dpdpdp View Post
originally i played with staggered points using LeCleach's crossover for minimum phase. Unfortunately this lead to some of the 1/4 wave notch being apparent in the top crossover. I played with different asymmetrical slopes and am currently at a 1200 and 350 4th order acoustic BW which turns out to be 2nd order on CD, 1st order on both sides of mid and 2nd order on woofer. Crossovers aren't my strong suit but I will play a lot before settling on a final crossover. I will likely go for a flat FR with minimal phase changes. I wouldn't say I can hear a huge difference in all of them and they sound great for music no matter what I play.
Thank you sir for your reply...


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
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post #23 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I played with the synergycalc, winisd, hornresp, bought drivers and did sweeps with REW with prefab "taps" to see output, lots of reading and sims to see if the drivers would have enough "bandpass" to work. There are way smarter guys out there that can tell you more but the magic of having a point source speaker is what you get. I would imagine there are enough two way designs out there that you could steal a proven one and run with it. These particular mids roll off at 300Hz but there is an entire thread discussing synergy horn mids and just pair that to a CD you like that has enough low end grunt. I cross the sub at 80Hz and it still remains point source due to wavelengths. I think the real advantage is just using a big ass horn, "no replacement for displacement." A huge horn just sounds amazing.
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-22-2020, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpdpdp View Post
I played with the synergycalc, winisd, hornresp, bought drivers and did sweeps with REW with prefab "taps" to see output, lots of reading and sims to see if the drivers would have enough "bandpass" to work. There are way smarter guys out there that cant ell you more but the magic of having a point source speaker is what you get. I would imagine there are enough two way designs out there that you could steal a proven one and run with it. These particular mids roll off at 300Hz but there is an entire threat discussing synergy horn mids and just pair that to a CD you like that has enough low end grunt. I cross the sub at 80Hz and it still remains point source due to wavelengths. I think the real advantage is just using a big ass horn, "no replacement for displacement." A huge horn just sounds amazing.
I'm really debating building some 60X40 2way Synergy horns just for S&G....and apply some of that Geddes twist to it with foam. My current tops sound great but we all want AMAZING!! I have seen in other threads in other forums that the 60X40 sounds like MAGIC.... so you know that got my attention...


Juju

Sub List: 1- Red Five Mini V1 Devastator 18" w/PA460, 1- Red Five Devastator LFE 21", 1- Red Five Devastator 21" Finalizer V2 DF , 1- BOSS platform [The Hideaway Theater], 2- 18" "Full Marty" tuned to 17Hz w/RSS460HO
Wish List: Anthology http://www.speakerdesignworks.com/Anthology_1.html

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