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post #31 of 123 Old 05-26-2020, 01:44 AM
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They're so bold at this point that they don't even change the DBX name on the unit, box, manual, or PC board.
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post #32 of 123 Old 05-26-2020, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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They're so bold at this point that they don't even change the DBX name on the unit, box, manual, or PC board.
I actually think they are sourcing OEM parts at this point. The bottom of the chassis has a very official sticker too.

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post #33 of 123 Old 05-26-2020, 04:17 AM
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Fingers crossed as I still have a few 3 way builds I need to build.
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post #34 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 12:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, plugged in the PA2 for a quick look.

Noise floor is same as MiniDSP, so would require attenuators just like I have been running on my Mini.

As it is I can hear the tweeter hiss from my chair, which I could on the MiniDSP also until I put attenuators in. Muting the channels or not even having an input connected doesnt seem to do anything unless I go into positive gain, in which the noise floor increases, again same as the MiniDSP.

Even with the attenuators in the MiniDSP the noise floor is still not as low as the Amp appears to be able to provide, without any DSP in the mix, so I know my amp is capable of an even more quiet noise floor (Emotiva XPA7 Gen2).

Bummer.

I will use this though in the future, in my new theatre the hiss just may be more bearable without attenuators through an AT screen, else I will have to pick up some quality XLR attenuators, but I was trying to avoid that.

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post #35 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Something that is a bit of a dealbreaker actually...

The PEQ banks are locked to L/R both for input and output.

Oh and while there are 6 outputs, there is no routing matrix, so, again, you can only use this for 2x 3 way speakers, a 4 way is impossible.

So, you can only have one global PEQ for L/R on the input which makes it impossible for calibrating left and right individually... huh?

Its fine on the output banks, since you would usually use that to PEQ an rough anechoic correction for your speaker, but it would be nice to have an option.

Damn, looks like its back to the drawing board.

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post #36 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Something that is a bit of a dealbreaker actually...

The PEQ banks are locked to L/R both for input and output.
In set-up wizzard, select dual mono. You have it set to stereo linked.

As far as noise level, I had mini-dsp and both my OEM PA2 and Venu360 are way quieter.
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post #37 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
In set-up wizzard, select dual mono. You have it set to stereo linked.

As far as noise level, I had mini-dsp and both my OEM PA2 and Venu360 are way quieter.
Outstanding, thank you!

Edit - So, that seemed to just split the graphic EQ, the PEQ banks are all still locked to stereo.

Any other ideas, does this look right?


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post #38 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Oh and while there are 6 outputs, there is no routing matrix, so, again, you can only use this for 2x 3 way speakers, a 4 way is impossible.
You can select 6 full range channels in the set-up wizard and create a 6 way active speaker. The other issues you're having are because you selected stereo w/sub.

There's a learning curve. I use the PA2 in a small bedroom system and hardly use it. My home theater uses the VENU360 so my knowledge of the PA2 set-up is limited.

Here is JBL's intro video:
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post #39 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess for my usage the real limitation here is not a disaster. I can still PEQ each output but in linked pairs, so for my L/R thats fine because I use a global PEQ there based on outdoor measurements. The issue for my current usage is the input is where I use different PEQ for L and R currently since the speakers are not in a perfectly symmetrical spot in my room.

In my next house the speakers will be symmetrical so that wouldn't matter, I could put a global PEQ there to calibrate those.

I suppose I could also run a 6pt average for both L and R and combine them into a global response to calibrate then. That could be interesting as the timbre would probably be better matched.

It does limit you though, if I want to run a single 3 way and then subs on the rest of the outputs... I couldnt apply a PEQ to the 3way input only and then not to the subs.

hmm..

Of course I see the Venu360 seems to do all of this...

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post #40 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I guess for my usage the real limitation here is not a disaster. I can still PEQ each output but in linked pairs, so for my L/R thats fine because I use a global PEQ there based on outdoor measurements. The issue for my current usage is the input is where I use different PEQ for L and R currently since the speakers are not in a perfectly symmetrical spot in my room.

In my next house the speakers will be symmetrical so that wouldn't matter, I could put a global PEQ there to calibrate those.

I suppose I could also run a 6pt average for both L and R and combine them into a global response to calibrate then. That could be interesting as the timbre would probably be better matched.

It does limit you though, if I want to run a single 3 way and then subs on the rest of the outputs... I couldnt apply a PEQ to the 3way input only and then not to the subs.

hmm..

Of course I see the Venu360 seems to do all of this...
It is trying to make life simple because you told it to link those things by virtue of selecting stereo 2 way. If you select all full range outputs, all those links get broken and it then inputs those parameters separately. You have to understand who the software was written for: the common guy who isn't separating these things. For you, 6 full range channels will have 6 full range inputs. The general roadie for a band doesn't want all that work.
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post #41 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
You can select 6 full range channels in the set-up wizard and create a 6 way active speaker. The other issues you're having are because you selected stereo w/sub.

There's a learning curve. I use the PA2 in a small bedroom system and hardly use it. My home theater uses the VENU360 so my knowledge of the PA2 set-up is limited.
Thanks Ive seen that link.

Ive run the setup quite a few times now, the best I can do is 2way with stereo subs, which is two 3 ways really... There is certainly no way that I can see to get any of the channels separated more than they currently are.

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post #42 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 02:01 AM
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Input PEQ is a setting used like a tone control and will never separate. If you have 2 subs tuned independently for location (delay,phase ect) then once those settings are done, asking the system for more 25hz output will not require individual adjustment. Boosting 25hz will do so correctly on the input PEQ for the entire room and using all outputs.
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post #43 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Thanks Ive seen that link.

Ive run the setup quite a few times now, the best I can do is 2way with stereo subs, which is two 3 ways really... There is certainly no way that I can see to get any of the channels separated more than they currently are.
I guess the PA2 is different from the VENU360 in this regard. The processing power on the 360 is 10 times the PA2 and these options apparently are not on the PA2. Sorry I'm not as familiar. It's 3am here in Colorado so I can't physically use the PA2 now.
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post #44 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Input PEQ is a setting used like a tone control and will never separate. If you have 2 subs tuned independently for location (delay,phase ect) then once those settings are done, asking the system for more 25hz output will not require individual adjustment. Boosting 25hz will do so correctly on the input PEQ for the entire room and using all outputs.
Yes, but on the MiniDSP,. the input PEQ is where you can calibrate the speaker individually if they are not in ideal locations, its much like Audyssey.

If your speaker is a 3 way, then you have to do it that way.

With one PEQ then you would need to calibrate both speakers at the same time, which is not how its done in any HT system I have seen, I can see how its 'easy' for bands and such, I guess I expected it would do that.

Its really not splitting the PEQ's into a 6 way like you suggest, you must be too used to the Venu since that seems to do all that.

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post #45 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 02:26 AM
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Yes, but on the MiniDSP,. the input PEQ is where you can calibrate the speaker individually if they are not in ideal locations, its much like Audyssey.
I'm aware. I was simply stating how the PA2 views the input eq as a source eq and not a speaker eq. Tuning speaker issues is an output eq issue to the PA2.

I bought the VENU360 because of it's far higher flexibility

Sorry I can't help further.
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post #46 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Well, plugged in the PA2 for a quick look.

Noise floor is same as MiniDSP, so would require attenuators just like I have been running on my Mini.

As it is I can hear the tweeter hiss from my chair, which I could on the MiniDSP also until I put attenuators in. Muting the channels or not even having an input connected doesnt seem to do anything unless I go into positive gain, in which the noise floor increases, again same as the MiniDSP.

Even with the attenuators in the MiniDSP the noise floor is still not as low as the Amp appears to be able to provide, without any DSP in the mix, so I know my amp is capable of an even more quiet noise floor (Emotiva XPA7 Gen2).

Bummer.

I will use this though in the future, in my new theatre the hiss just may be more bearable without attenuators through an AT screen, else I will have to pick up some quality XLR attenuators, but I was trying to avoid that.
Unfortunately, it seems to be difficult to find a budget processor with a low enough noise floor for a fully-active system. You may have to up your budget considerably. I know a guy who went through the same “trial and error” you are, and eventually found that the Ashly Protea and Xilica XP processors are acceptably quiet. If money is a concern, try finding them used on ebay.

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post #47 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 07:19 AM
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Noise floor is same as MiniDSP, so would require attenuators just like I have been running on my Mini.
Damn, my hopes were high on this one

One thing to consider is that the Emotiva has a fixed gain of +29db.

Have you consider building a specific Amplifier for the TPL's?

Something like an Modulus-86, which combined with a THAT1206 provide a total amplifier gain of +14 dB.
This was tested in Audioscience with excellent results.

This is what i'm aiming in a distant future to power the TPL's, but due to transport and taxes make it too expensive for me now

I'm hoping to be able to test the Monacor DSM-48LAN in a near future, fingers crossed it will perform better in the noise department ...

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post #48 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 10:33 AM
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I suspect the copy is not as clean. I own 2 DBX units and both are quieter than my mini dsp was. It's also possible that the gain structure wasn't set right in the set up wizard.(or not set with the set up wizard and done manually)

Regardless, consider that the PA2 is sold as open box units all over ebay for 200 shipped. Why bother with China.
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post #49 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Damn, my hopes were high on this one



One thing to consider is that the Emotiva has a fixed gain of +29db.



Have you consider building a specific Amplifier for the TPL's?



Something like an Modulus-86, which combined with a THAT1206 provide a total amplifier gain of +14 dB.

This was tested in Audioscience with excellent results.



This is what i'm aiming in a distant future to power the TPL's, but due to transport and taxes make it too expensive for me now



I'm hoping to be able to test the Monacor DSM-48LAN in a near future, fingers crossed it will perform better in the noise department ...
Plugged into the emo without a DSP the AMT is whisper quiet as I mentioned so the amp itself is capable of total silence.

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post #50 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:42 PM
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Plugged into the emo without a DSP the AMT is whisper quiet as I mentioned so the amp itself is capable of total silence.

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Hey Javs, I just recalled, with my PA2, I used a cheater plug to get rid of a hum/noise. I had forgotten that I had the noise.
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post #51 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I suspect the copy is not as clean. I own 2 DBX units and both are quieter than my mini dsp was. It's also possible that the gain structure wasn't set right in the set up wizard.(or not set with the set up wizard and done manually)



Regardless, consider that the PA2 is sold as open box units all over ebay for 200 shipped. Why bother with China.
The gain wasn't the issue because the noise is constant no matter where the sliders are everywhere at 0db and under, if you go over into positive gain the noise is way higher as expected, also without any input at all or even muted the noise is the same. The minidsp does this exactly the same.

Do you have any amts? I mean it's not screaming at me, it's just the same as my mini and I can hear it from the chair 3m away.

Perhaps your minidsp is particularly loud sample? This is merely the same.

I don't buy that this clone is louder than an OEM unit.

The pa2 in Australia is $900.....

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post #52 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Javs, I just recalled, with my PA2, I used a cheater plug to get rid of a hum/noise. I had forgotten that I had the noise.
Hmmmm

This is not a hum though. It's just white noise. I dont have a cheater plug, I should make one.

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post #53 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 02:14 PM
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Hmmmm

This is not a hum though. It's just white noise. I dont have a cheater plug, I should make one.

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You can just pull the ground prong off with pliers.
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post #54 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thinking out loud, my Center channel which has a passive crossover in it and the same AMT has always been essentially silent compared to the raw drivers plugged into the MiniDSP, so perhaps I should consider adding a couple of resistors to the AMT terminals.

I will test the noise floor of the center plugged into the PA2 vs just the AMT. If that is more tolerable I think thats the easiest thing to do. Just make up a very small resistor circuit and stick it in the AMT box.

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post #55 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Plugged into the emo without a DSP the AMT is whisper quiet as I mentioned so the amp itself is capable of total silence.
Yes, but assuming the DSP introduces noise, the higher the gain on the amp, the higher the DSP noise is amplified.
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post #57 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, but assuming the DSP introduces noise, the higher the gain on the amp, the higher the DSP noise is amplified.
Right.

So I have a Rotel which is 26.5db gain.

Unless I am missing something, 3db diference of gain shouldnt be considerable?

Unless amp gain is a totally different beast.

I would need to pick up some XLR to RCA to test it.

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Have you read the dbx PA2 manual?
They detail a procedure to "... manually optimizing the system’s gain structure ..."

Please see section: 3. Set Gain Structure & Limiters, page 19.

Maybe it has some information to overcome the hiss.

Regarding the Software, does it have any option to control the input gain?

On the Monacor Software, this option is available, i would assume it should be possible on the DBX?

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Maybe this?

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post #60 of 123 Old 05-28-2020, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Location: Sydney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
Maybe this?
Like I said, tried everything. If MUTE does not change the hiss, nothing will. Ive experienced this with the MiniDSP. I definitely know how to setup the input gain structure on a DSP, this unit is actually even more simple than something like a MiniDSP, I have even used oscilloscopes to do it to measure when the preamp starts distorting the sinewave, but we are not even against that wall, this is literally just the noise floor of the DSP paired with my Emo amp.

And yes, there is no proper input gain setting, you have to use the limiter function, which I think is odd personally. But it is what it is.

Its a bit frustrating that the channels are linked like they are on the PA2.

Need to buy attenuators... Now the question is, should I get 10, 15 or 20db attenuators.

I have 12db attenutators on the MiniDSP outputs and they are much more quiet only a couple db over the amps raw noise floor.
neo_2009 likes this.

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