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-   -   Beyma TPL150H/AE TD12M/Beyma 158P80ND Active (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3147012-beyma-tpl150h-ae-td12m-beyma-158p80nd-active.html)

neo_2009 05-21-2020 09:05 AM

Beyma TPL150H/AE TD12M/Beyma 158P80ND Active
 
This project started almost 2 years ago, initially as this, but as time went by, it evolved to this final iteration.
Unfortunately, lots of unpredictable factors were in the way, but fortunately, i've learned not to rush things, and look at this from a long term perspective, so i'm hopeful in the long term it was for the best.

The final project was inspired by Javs fenomenal Javs' Modular Tower WMTW - 15FH520 / Beyma 12P80ND-V2 / TPL-150H project:

https://i.imgur.com/cNXrgVr.png

The final speaker will be a 3 way speaker, composed of:
- Beyma 15p80nd: X < 350Hz
- AE TD12M: 350 < X < 1500Hz
- Beyma TPL-150H: 1500Hz < X < 20000Hz

(Crossover points will be dictated by real measures, but should be around those values).

Crossover will be Active,using a Monacor DSM-48LAN.
I'll start with the TPL-150H and the AE TD12M, and when funds allow, will add the Beyma 15p80ND.

For amplification, i'll start with budget amplifiers, the TPL will be driven by a Parasound Zamp V3 ([email protected]), which has variable gain controls that i'm hoping will help to avoid any potential hiss, and the AE TD12M by a Crown xli 800.

While i'm waiting to get the boxes, i'm trying to plan everything i will need to connect all components, namely AV (NAD T758V3) -> DSP -> Amps.

The following diagram describes how all components will be connected, showing the real hardware from each component (pre-outs, inputs, etc):

https://i.imgur.com/CfZqs2S.png

Cables will be made with Sommercable SC-Galileo 238 Plus, for RCA plugs, Hicon HI-CM03-NTL, and for XLR plugs, XLR Male NC3MXX and XLR Female NC3FXX

I would like to ask your help, please have a look at the connections, is everything correct or am i missing anything?

BassThatHz 05-21-2020 09:31 AM

Should work.
You'll have to reduce the output db's on the tweeter substantially to make everything match. -48db should be plenty (I think).

neo_2009 05-21-2020 11:13 AM

Than you for your response.

The TD12M is [email protected], and the TPL [email protected], so it i assume around 6db should work.
Nevertheless, i will be measuring these on the outside, so this will be dictated by measurements.

neo_2009 05-21-2020 11:27 AM

One of the things that i'm worried with, are the tweeter levels.
Even using a 45W amplifier with gain controls, if someone messes with the controls, and the AV volume control, it can achieve dangerous levels.

Using this calculator, it would achieve near 115db at 2m, which could hurt someone.

I'm considering using these In-Line attenuators.
But i'm not sure where to place them? Would they work between the DSP OUT and the Power amp IN, as in this image?
https://i.imgur.com/1DlSYkx.png

noah katz 05-21-2020 12:10 PM

It might waste a watt or two, but you could also use a resistor in series with the tweeter, which might also simplify gain structure issues.

neo_2009 05-21-2020 12:20 PM

Assuming the atenuador would work the same way, i would prefer to go through that route, its not only easier, but more flexible.

Javs 05-21-2020 01:40 PM

Awesome!

I have attenuators on my DSP output to tame some hiss and DSP noise floor.

I also set my AVR as such that 0mv is a couple db under reference, so you could do that too.

My sweet spot is 1200hz crossover with 48db slopes, it sounds awesome, I tried just about every other crossover slope but keep coming back to that one. It's steep enough that the top doesn't break a sweat and low enough that the mid is definitely not beaming.


Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

A9X-308 05-21-2020 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59685086)
The TD12M is [email protected], and the TPL [email protected], so it i assume around 6db should work.
Nevertheless, i will be measuring these on the outside, so this will be dictated by measurements.

You'll also need to factor in the gains of the various amps used to set levels correctly.

neo_2009 05-21-2020 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javs (Post 59686002)
I also set my AVR as such that 0mv is a couple db under reference, so you could do that too.
My sweet spot is 1200hz crossover with 48db slopes ...

Thank you very much for your feedback.
Could you please clarify how are you doing this on your AVR?

neo_2009 05-21-2020 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A9X-308 (Post 59686438)
You'll also need to factor in the gains of the various amps used to set levels correctly.

Thank you for the clarification, it makes sense.
As mentioned, i will perform proper measures outside, and use them to decide which values to use.

Javs 05-21-2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59686468)
Thank you very much for your feedback.
Could you please clarify how are you doing this on your AVR?

Combinations of the actual speaker line levels set in the AVR, and also the DSP. MiniDSP defaults to mute if it loses settings too.

I dont have a big fat gain knob on the front of any of my power amps, I use Emotiva amps, so its literally impossible for me to drive my tweeter over about -3db from reference peaks. I personally never listen at ful reference so having it always at -3 was good for me. I am a wierd person in the fact that I prefer to just go right to -0Mv when watching something so its fool proof to reach a known preferred level.

I dont see how if you know even the slightest what you were doing you would send any volume over reference to your tweeter anyway. That really should be part of the setup process IMO when you are doing your gain matching.

Javs 05-21-2020 03:13 PM

One tip with the TPL.

When you take the backing plate off, LEAVE the felt strip glued to the back of the TPL. It keeps the response smoother than when you remove it. It seems crazy but it took me years to figure out that one quirk.

neo_2009 05-21-2020 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javs (Post 59686500)
Combinations of the actual speaker line levels set in the AVR, and also the DSP. MiniDSP defaults to mute if it loses settings too.

The Monacor is built by AllDSP, and the Software is really interesting.

It allows to apply Gains and a Limiter in both INPUT and OUTPUT, so assuming the software behaves well, it should allow to configure the system gain levels properly:
https://i.imgur.com/SBeEL4e.png

Nevertheless, i will feel more comfortable by adding a physical attenuator, in case of something crashes at the software level :)

Javs 05-21-2020 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59686572)
The Monacor is built by AllDSP, and the Software is really interesting.

It allows to apply Gains and a Limiter in both INPUT and OUTPUT, so assuming the software behaves well, it should allow to configure the system gain levels properly:
https://i.imgur.com/SBeEL4e.png

Nevertheless, i will feel more comfortable by adding a physical attenuator, in case of something crashes at the software level :)

An attentuator is not going to change your power amps ability to drive an input though. It does not reduce the power of your power amp. At the end of the day you are still effectively usung your dsp or processor to set the overall levels. Even though I have a 10db attenuator on my tweeter, I could still turn knobs and set things so my tweeter gets 80w without any issues at all.

I only see an attenuator as useful to reduce the noise floor of your dsp.

neo_2009 05-21-2020 04:09 PM

I see, thank you for the feedback.

The Zamp actually has gain knobs, so i assume that by using those, and the DSP Gain and Limiter functions, it should be possible to prevent any potential problem?
https://i.imgur.com/PcSLjpw.png

Or maybe use an resistor in series, as mentioned above, just in case :)

Javs 05-21-2020 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59686818)
I see, thank you for the feedback.

The Zamp actually has gain knobs, so i assume that by using those, and the DSP Gain and Limiter functions, it should be possible to prevent any potential problem?
https://i.imgur.com/PcSLjpw.png

Or maybe use an resistor in series, as mentioned above, just in case :)

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Put a cap to protect the tweeter if you are really worried about sending too much power to tweeter, this will stop it getting damaged. but again, a resistor will not stop max power being sent to a tweeter, it will only reduce it in relation to other drivers.

Just because a tweeter is sensitive it doesnt mean you are going to send 115db to it with any more easy than you could to another driver. Just set your levels in the DSP and your amp and your max volume level will be whatever you want.

noah katz 05-21-2020 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javs (Post 59686954)
...but again, a resistor will not stop max power being sent to a tweeter, it will only reduce it in relation to other drivers.


Whatever the tweeter's Re is, if a resistor of equal value is put in series with it, the amp output voltage applied to it will be cut in half, and the power will be reduced by 4X.

BassThatHz 05-23-2020 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59685086)
The TD12M is [email protected], and the TPL [email protected], so it i assume around 6db should work.

More.

You are stepping down from XLR voltage to RCA voltage; you could easily clip the input stage of that amplifier if you aren't careful.

But well before that point, you'd be running for the exit...

The cool thing with all-active is that you can adjust the timing of every driver,
so you don't have to worry (as much) about the physical-alignment.

PrimeTime 05-24-2020 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noah katz (Post 59685488)
It might waste a watt or two, but you could also use a resistor in series with the tweeter, which might also simplify gain structure issues.


Don't forget a Raychem RXE-075 to protect the tweeter.

neo_2009 06-13-2020 08:34 AM

All gear (almost) in the house :)

The Beyma's

https://i.imgur.com/svoPAiq.jpg


One of the AE's

https://i.imgur.com/hP6vC8a.jpg


Interconnects

https://i.imgur.com/EjCv0Qc.jpg


The Neutrick plugs with sommer cable:

https://i.imgur.com/L19Yv4I.jpg


The Monacor DSM-48 LAN

https://i.imgur.com/FQcvObR.jpg

I'm waiting for this type of speaker connectors for the TPL150, so i can test it with the Parasound Zamp and the Monacor, hopefully i won't have the dreaded hiss problem, or if its there, that the gain knobs on the Zamp can eliminate it:

https://i.imgur.com/oSsjhfl.png


Now patiently waiting for the cabinets to be concluded, hopefully it won't take more than 2-3 weeks ...

BassThatHz 06-13-2020 12:16 PM

Switching from all passive to all active I saw HUGE efficiency increases.

Before I was nearly clipping my FP10k's trying to drive my fronts, now it barely registers signal-detected while STILL being louder/cleaner.

If the Monacor produces too much hiss the Motu 16A or 24A is as silent as a DAC can be.
With my Motu rig and the FP's even with the 108db/w/m SOES's I have to be within a foot to hear the hiss over the stock fan-noise from 15ft away. The only downside is that it requires software-based DSP hosted by a dedicated computer, so that drives the cost/risk/complexity up significantly.

I may wire the fans to the remote switch on the amp so that I can turn them off because honestly I doubt the idle power is enough to kill the amplifiers via heat from pushing mids and tweeters. But I should probably wait until I can add the dedicated air conditioner to the room because right now the room gets unusably nuclear-hot in the summer.

1st worlder problems I tells ya! :D

Javs 06-13-2020 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59801308)
All gear (almost) in the house :)

The Beyma's

One of the AE's

Interconnects

The Neutrick plugs with sommer cable:

The Monacor DSM-48 LAN

I'm waiting for this type of speaker connectors for the TPL150, so i can test it with the Parasound Zamp and the Monacor, hopefully i won't have the dreaded hiss problem, or if its there, that the gain knobs on the Zamp can eliminate it:

Now patiently waiting for the cabinets to be concluded, hopefully it won't take more than 2-3 weeks ...

Soon as you get those connectors, lets hear that hiss??

If its going to do it, it will do it even on MUTE. BUt if you have gain knobs, unless your power amp also has a high noise floor (I tested the iNuke 3000DSP - but that also has DSP built in) you should be able to easily fix it with the input gain.

I mean its not really a huge issue because after you build attenuators you push the noise floor way down anyway, when I was researching it there was a whole subset of people who used them anyway because they were of the opinion that if you push the pre-amps more into the high range it was actually sound more dynamic, I think there is something to that.

neo_2009 06-13-2020 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javs (Post 59802966)
Soon as you get those connectors, lets hear that hiss??

That's the plan :)

The cable is too thick, and i don't want to risk an accident, so i need to wait for the connectors, should be here next week ...

Cabinets are almost done, what's left are the final polish, the frames for the grills, and cover the grills with acoustic fabric (which i already have).

I've been waiting for this for almost 2 years, so i don't mind waiting a few weeks more, the plan is to keep these speakers forever :)

The best thing in going for the best you can afford (and i had to save a lot for these), is that you don't need to second guess ...
Once these are completed and fine tuned, i hope i "never" need to think about speakers again :)

Javs 06-13-2020 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo_2009 (Post 59803116)
That's the plan :)

The cable is too thick, and i don't want to risk an accident, so i need to wait for the connectors, should be here next week ...

Cabinets are almost done, what's left are the final polish, the frames for the grills, and cover the grills with acoustic fabric (which i already have).

I've been waiting for this for almost 2 years, so i don't mind waiting a few weeks more, the plan is to keep these speakers forever :)

The best thing in going for the best you can afford (and i had to save a lot for these), is that you don't need to second guess ...
Once these are completed and fine tuned, i hope i "never" need to think about speakers again :)

Thats how I feel about my towers too. At least for LCR.

But I did make them modular for a few reasons, if I wanna try a new mid, easy, just build a new mid cabinet.

Or if I wanna add 18's, I can add 18's.

But these have enough bass to violently shake the windows in my room and I can hear the drywall flexing, so I think I am alright :)

neo_2009 06-13-2020 04:51 PM

When funds allow, i will add the Beyma's 15.

For 18", i already have 2 18" (BMS18N862), and the boxes build for 2 more if needed, hidden as furniture:

https://i.imgur.com/0432Eyf.png


This is how it looks from behind, Subs 3) and 4) are already completed, 2) and 1) are waiting for funds:

https://i.imgur.com/IJB9Aje.png

I have so much to thank to this and avforums (UK), if not for all the help i had, i would probably still have 5.5" woofer speakers, a 10" sub, and a lot of fancy cables :-D

Vince_B 06-13-2020 05:08 PM

Well done front view that is clean!

neo_2009 06-26-2020 11:30 AM

I finally have great news :)

I tried the following today:

1 - Connect TPL + Monacor + Zamp
- XLR to RCA from Monacor Output to Zamp Input
- Zamp speaker outputs to TPL

No Hiss at all !!!!
The Zamp has variable gain knobs, and only in the maximum setting there is a very very slight hiss which can only be heard with the ear inside the TPL Horn.

2 - Connect TPL + Monacor + Zamp + NAD T758
- NAD Right speaker Pre-out, using an RCA to XLR cable to the Monacor Input
- XLR to RCA from Monacor Output to Zamp Input
- Zamp speaker outputs to TPL

No hiss at all
When using maximum gain, the same very very small hiss and only with the ear inside the Horn, it can't be heard 5cm away from the TPL.
(i was actually a bit afraid, thinking that if for some reason there was a glitch, it could fry my ear ...)

I'm not entirely sure these are 100% valid tests, as i haven't changed any of the Monacor configurations, but nothing was muted (the Monacor has a front panel that lights when something is muted).
Nevertheless, it seems that the Hiss that some Emotiva/Nak users were having even when connecting the DSP/Amp/Speaker isn't here.

The next great news is that the Boxes are finished, will be having a final polish next week, so as soon as i have some availability i will be able to pick them up.
And then, the next phase, is where the real fun begins :)


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