Custom Center Build - 2x Dayton RS225 + B&C DE360 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Custom Center Build - 2x Dayton RS225 + B&C DE360

I'm in the process of building active mains (modified Bordeaux by Jim Holtz) and I didn't want to keep my Klipsch center, because it's quite bright and I also don't really like it all that much.
I chose the DE360 compression driver and the ME45 horn since that combination gives me a smooth top end and a generally pretty linear frequency response, in hope to achieve good panning between LCR (the cost of a horizontal Bordeaux would've been too much). The horn loads down to about 1khz and the crossover point will be around 1.3khz. The low frequency section of the speaker will be two Dayton RS225, which are pretty linear to about 2khz.

Passive crossovers will be finalized with Xsim after I got the drivers in and got some measurements. It's a pretty simple sealed design.


CAD model:




I built the speaker in about one hour:
Writing CNC code from the CAD model: 15 minutes
CNC machine time: 20 minutes
Cleaning up: 5 minutes
Turning the rear panel around to CNC the connector hole: 5 minutes
Gluing and clamping: 10 minutes


I'm happy with that speed as I kind of challenge myself to always be faster, which is why I use the Dado joints seen below. Those allow for super easy and convenient assembly. This also was my first project using the new vacuum table, which was amazing.


Finished parts on the CNC:




Everything lined up and ready for glue. I couldn't make the front baffle yet (no drivers) so I did not glue that to the cab yet.







No need for any additional work steps after the CNC part! Everything is ready for assembly and fits perfectly of course:




Dry fit:




And done. Well, I still have to CNC the front baffle but what's another 10 minutes




After two weeks the drivers finally arrived and I finished the baffle. Messed up the horn cutout, which is now 3mm too wide




Will just paint it black. Since it's already flawed because of the wrong baffle cut-out I won't make it pretty.




I set up something as close to an anechoic chamber as I could get for measurements. An outside groundplane measurement was taken to get a better sub 500Hz response.



I got basic FR and impedance sweeps for each channel and then hooked it up to a dsp amp setting up an active crossover. I ended up liking a 900Hz acoustic crossover the best. The CD needed to be attenuated by 20db, which I will have to do via an L-pad in the passive crossover. The noise floor from the amp directly on the CD was unbearable, as expected, but I'm sure nobody hooks up a very efficient tweeter to a 2500W amp channel. Maybe BTH idk.
I'm kinda worried if my AVR will be able to handle this speaker. The impedance varies from 3R to 40R so I might run into both current and voltage limitations. If it doesn't, I'll have a problem, since my AVR doesn't have a center pre out.



I designed my very first passive crossover in Xsim. I hope that I will never have to do this again and will be able to afford to go all active from here on, but it was an interesting process. The woofer network is a basic LR2 config, while I played around with the tweeter response a bit. The 2nd cap changes the slope and phase to my liking, while the cap in parallel with the resistor evens out the treble response a bit (reduces some 2-6khz and boosts above 10khz).




Crossover assembly:




And the measured frequency response with an outdoor GP measurement below 400Hz:




And most importantly: I like how it sounds! Looks tiny on the sub thou

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post #2 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 12:34 PM
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Dude, you have a CNC machine Now that's flat out unfair Nice build
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post #3 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Dude, you have a CNC machine Now that's flat out unfair Nice build

That machine is just toxic fuel to my speaker building addiction, I tell ya! Since I got it (half a year ago) I already built 4 subs, now this center and have 6 more speakers planned which I have already ordered the parts for. It's just a push of a button and you can start gluing your cab together. Madness!
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post #4 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 05:54 PM
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The centers of those drivers may be too far apart and if so will cause beaming, cancellation, and comb filtering near the crossover frequency down to the freq at which they will sum. You need the two woofers within a wavelength at their highest freq (your xover freq of 1200hz is just over 11 inches). I’m not sure of your dimensions but wanted you to be aware. Also the horizontal patterns of an MTM and their typical lobe patterns are difficult at best. I’ve gone down this road, so just speaking from experience.

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post #5 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
That machine is just toxic fuel to my speaker building addiction, I tell ya! Since I got it (half a year ago) I already built 4 subs, now this center and have 6 more speakers planned which I have already ordered the parts for. It's just a push of a button and you can start gluing your cab together. Madness!
I am about to buy a CNC. Do you have a link/thread anywhere on any forum about your vacuum table? I will probably need to do something like that too eventually.

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post #6 of 25 Old 05-31-2020, 06:22 PM
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and have 6 more speakers planned which I have already ordered the parts for.
Piece of cake for you. 10 minutes per speaker, times 6 speakers = 1 hour
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-01-2020, 03:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
The centers of those drivers may be too far apart and if so will cause beaming, cancellation, and comb filtering near the crossover frequency down to the freq at which they will sum. You need the two woofers within a wavelength at their highest freq (your xover freq of 1200hz is just over 11 inches). I’m not sure of your dimensions but wanted you to be aware. Also the horizontal patterns of an MTM and their typical lobe patterns are difficult at best. I’ve gone down this road, so just speaking from experience.

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I've been thinking about this before, but so many speakers are basically the same... To my knowledge lobing will only become a problem off axis and I only have one listening position which is perfectly on axis so it might be fine. I don't have enough room for a different arrangement, so I don't have much of a choice. I will see if I can cross over a little lower, but don't think I can go beneath 1khz. The only way I could bring the acoustic centers closer together would be using a smaller horn, which would raise the crossover frequency in return...
And a single woofer will likely not be able to keep up and will look boring


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Piece of cake for you. 10 minutes per speaker, times 6 speakers = 1 hour


Nah those others will be a little more work. Especially since I decided to CNC custom marble sockets...



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post #8 of 25 Old 06-01-2020, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I am about to buy a CNC. Do you have a link/thread anywhere on any forum about your vacuum table? I will probably need to do something like that too eventually.
@klipsch guided me through this and I haven't done a write-up anywhere else, so I guess I'll just do one here.

I decided to keep the existing t-nut table because the spacing of the framing was too far for my taste (stability) and I didn't particularly feel like modifying the frame itself.
I basically removed one of the four elements and moved another one center.




I also have a tool length sensor which needed to be placed somewhere. It's not the best solution but it works.




The plenum is made from regular MDF. I divided the surface into 3 zones I can turn on and off individually, for when I'm manufacturing smaller parts which don't cover the entire table. When I need maximum suction, I mask the open area with plexiglass. I covered the underside of the plenum in vinyl wrap to make it air-tight. I mask the sides with duct tape.







I used two 1" tubes for the first zone and a total of 3 1/2" tubes for the other two zones. I screwed the fittings into plywood and screwed those to the plenum. Sealed it with silicone.




The plenum was bolted to the T-nut table using 18 screws. There are another 18 hex inserts in the plenum to hold the spoilboard in place. The spoilboard is made from ultra light MDF, but regular MDF will probably also work just fine if you can't get the ultra light stuff.



I haven't masked everything with tape yet, so I'm losing some air, but it was good enough to cut out book-sized parts at 160ipm. I'm using a straight 8mm bit.
I got a motor from a local CNC shop. It can deliver about 10HG of vacuum and does 90cfm. The next best solution would've run me 2-3 grand here in Germany and even this 500€ motor was a bit of a stretch for me. I had 3HG of holddown when doing the parts for the center and it was enough. Maximum I get is 7HG and parts beyond like 5x5" in size become absolutely immovable when I mask the table properly.

You can basically use any kind of tubing you like to connect the motor to the table. Most pond hoses are a good fit.



I don't have any other pics of it atm, but I'll take some later. The spoilboard doesn't have any holes in it (except for the bolts). MDF is porous enough to not need extra air holes. Even when I placed the actual workpiece (3/4" MDF) on top of the (also 3/4) spoilboard, you could place plexiglass on top and it would be sucked to the work piece.
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-09-2020, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like the woofers will arrive this weekend, I might get some measurements soon if the wheather is nice


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post #10 of 25 Old 06-09-2020, 05:37 PM
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One solution to the lobing issue would be to make it a 2.5 way crossover. Tho, more complex filter and probably moot since you only have 1 seating position to worry about.
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post #11 of 25 Old 06-09-2020, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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One solution to the lobing issue would be to make it a 2.5 way crossover. Tho, more complex filter and probably moot since you only have 1 seating position to worry about.

Yes I will stick with simple two-way for now. I will build entirely new/different speakers when I move the theater into a bigger space anyways. The two (relatively inefficient) Dayton woofers will likely not be able to keep up in a larger room. As B&C OEM customer I'm drawn towards something like the 12FW76, maybe a three way even. I have two speakers based on the 12FW76 and I like them a lot.

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post #12 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 12:07 AM
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Beautiful build.

As FOHTech also mentioned I'm not a fan of the horizontal layout - center to center distance between your woofers will create measurable off-axis nulls at crossover.

The problem is that the on-axis content is a fraction of what you actually hear. Dr Floyd O'Toole of Harman (JBL) investigates this in detail and concludes that this is the defining element of what trained listeners find most appealing in double blind tests.



As an example my mates Klipsch RP-250C...

Horizonal:









Ironically the vertical off axis performance is superb!...










I like this arrangement better, if you can accommodate it...







As mentioned previously, given you've already build a beautiful enclosure the other option is to 2.5 way the crossover. Its just one inductor more over the 2way for much improved results.


Good luck!
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 03:35 AM - Thread Starter
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So a dip in the off axis response is actually good since I don't have to worry so much about acoustic treatment, great!
Jokes aside, I would've done the Horn-on-top-of-woofers layout, if I had a way to make it work. I don't. Either way, the only reflected sound from the center that reaches me is from the ceiling, since I have a rug on the floor and the MLP is basically a reflection free zone when regarding the center and the side walls. The brain is pretty good on separating direct sound and reflections, so I don't know how much of an issue this would actually be, but I'll have a look at the pdf, it looks interesting!
I can't tell if a 2.5 way crossover would work, since I don't have measurements yet. The last thing I want is having a nasty bump at say 300Hz where I'm coupling the 2nd woofer. The center sits on my sub already, which will result in a bump below 200Hz anyways and I don't really want to make that even worse

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post #14 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 08:18 AM
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What happens if you toe in the two outer woofers?

Seems like it could work just like toeing in your left and right speakers. As you move off axis, you would be on axis from the further woofer and more off axis from the closer woofer.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-10-2020, 11:36 AM
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Toe helps with intensity, not time alignment. Toe helps alot on horn stereo speakers because we can fool the ear somewhat by increasing the intensity of the speaker that is further away.
Toe doesnt help much in this case, because it hardly changes the center to center distance between the 2 drivers. All it really does is moving the horn and compression drivers aqoustical center furter back. Which could be beneficial for a dome tweeter(not in a horn), but not really needed with a horn, where the aqoustical center already is further back than the mids.
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-11-2020, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Toe helps with intensity, not time alignment. Toe helps alot on horn stereo speakers because we can fool the ear somewhat by increasing the intensity of the speaker that is further away.
That‘s how decent stereo imaging is achieved in cars. It works pretty well.

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-11-2020, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I think what samps means is reducing lobing through different driver volumes. As you move to the left, the left woofer will become louder than the right woofer, which will also reduce cancellation effects since there is a loudness imbalance to begin with. I haven‘t seen a polar of the daytons at 1khz yet, so I can‘t tell how effective this would be, but at 1khz the toe would probably have very little effect.

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post #18 of 25 Old 06-12-2020, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated the first post with more progress pics!


I got some measurements (will try to get outside meassurements as well soon) and made a crossover in Xsim. Even thou the tweeter net has more components, it's half the cost of the woofer net (60 bucks total).
I'm concerned if my AVR will be able to drive this load. Impedance is all over the place and I don't know if voltage and current swings are high enough... Any thoughts?
Also, I don't fully trust the indoors measurement below 600Hz, but I have faith in Audyssey, should I mess up the crossover (balance).




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post #19 of 25 Old 06-20-2020, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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My dad gave the speaker a listen while I had it on the dsp amp and said it was the best sounding speaker he has ever heard. I'm not very convinced yet. I have a hard time judging a mono setup, while I do notice even the slightest problems in stereo setups.

I think I will be happy as long as the speaker sounds the same with the passive crossover.
I also didn't like the intimate sound the CD in the horn produced. I hope this will be less of an issue in a regular room, that isn't basically reflection free above 2khz. Maybe I should've gone with a horn with a wider vertical dispersion? It could be okay with movies, but the test material I put on was music. I very much liked the off axis response thou, around 15° above or below.

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post #20 of 25 Old 06-21-2020, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Baby steps while waiting for the crossover components to arrive: Applying paint.


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post #21 of 25 Old 06-26-2020, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Crossover parts arrived today. Speaker finished! Pics of the crossover coming later, here is how the frequency response turned out with the passive crossover, with an outdoor measurement below 400Hz.
Measured distortion averages 0.1% over the entire range of use. I like how it sounds! The sweep below was not time-windowed and done at 2.83V




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post #22 of 25 Old 06-27-2020, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I assembled the crossover on a PCB with horizontal tracks on the bottom. Vertical tracks done with wires as seen. Wanted to have the coils (axis) on a 90° offset, but it wasn't quite possible.
I made a layout on the fly basically. I liked how the tweeter net turned out, it looks tidy. I drilled holes through the PCB to screw it to the inside of the cab. It sounds great and just as simmed in Xsim. First short test on the AVR was very promising.

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Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #23 of 25 Old 06-27-2020, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Crossover parts arrived today. Speaker finished! Pics of the crossover coming later, here is how the frequency response turned out with the passive crossover, with an outdoor measurement below 400Hz.
Measured distortion averages 0.1% over the entire range of use. I like how it sounds! The sweep below was not time-windowed and done at 2.83V






NIce work man- I have 10 of the rs225-4 sitting in a box in my closet not knowing what to do with them- great inspiration.
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post #24 of 25 Old 06-27-2020, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Remy.Alexander View Post
NIce work man- I have 10 of the rs225-4 sitting in a box in my closet not knowing what to do with them- great inspiration.

I also have a few of em left PE had a sale on em recently when they went for 35$ each. Could've saved a buck or two if I lived in the states, but then I'd have to pay much more for the B&C stuff I buy! I paid 75 each, which is still good considering the driver's performance. I love the solid metal phase plugs.


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A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #25 of 25 Old 06-28-2020, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Old vs New
Watched Zombieland 2 today. The movie wasn't the best imo but the quality from the center is so much better. The treble spike of the Klipsch speaker made gun shots and the likes very unenjoyable. Everything smooth now, love it. Panning is also seamless as the differences seem minimal, at least I couldn't notice anything obvious or even annoying so far.




A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
peniku8 is offline  
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