4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 109Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 04:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 11,399
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4052 Post(s)
Liked: 4568
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough.
I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's.
Now what????
Well..
I don't run like 32 subwoofers and 100kW for no-reason. hehe!

Each UM-18 outputs like 120db (or more), outside at 9ft...
In a room it should be even-louder.
Each doubling is 6db (assuming you summed them correctly!)

I wouldn't bother upgrading to 21's, that won't be enough.
Either upgrade to 8 UM-18's or add a boat load of PA-460's.

I run 16 PA-460's with 8000watts RMS for Mid-bass, and then a number of other larger subs for ULF with even more power.

I can say that I don't need any more >30hz anymore, that's FOR SURE!
You can never have too much 1-25hz though...

16 PA-460's at 8kW is like [email protected] and THX @ 2w @ 2m, and then add the other subs...
A 60hz pure sinewave at 130db will absolutely tear your eardrums out of your head (at least in my room it does...)
130db of music is 100% enjoyable for me if the treble isn't crazy-loud or distorted.

My room is 18x23x8 with 45% treatments on all 5 sides with an average depth of 4inches, walls are about 1.5ft thick of drywall/wood/insulation and air gaps. It blocks about 115db of bass, the rest goes right through like a hot knife through butter.
I really need to be in an underground concrete bunker, but I digress.

16 PA-460's are capable of completely drowning out a pair of 108db/w/m SEOS tweeters. You "shouldn't" need more mid-bass than that. (Not if you want to have ears left! )
Musty Hustla, SuperFist and bebb like this.
BassThatHz is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Vince_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NE TN USA
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Post your waterfall. Are you after louder/more or quality?
Vince_B is offline  
post #33 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:03 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
EndersShadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 6,304
Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 1568
Before I make recommendations, what are you using to power them?

It could be you need a more powerful amp, but I can’t tell from what I’ve read.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My Setup | Custom MiniDSP Build | FS: If its For Sale, find it all (here)
Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
EndersShadow is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:04 PM
eXa
Senior Member
 
eXa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Before you go all avsforum (**** load of subs) on his ass, look at his before graph. He has 4 big boxes tuned to 16hz, but still the output drops like a rock from 20hz. I'm thinking placement issues.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Before I make recommendations, what are you using to power them? It could be you need a more powerful amp, but I can’t tell from what I’ve read.
.



It's in his signature, and post 7. Two NX6000
trevordj likes this.

Last edited by eXa; 06-09-2020 at 05:28 PM.
eXa is offline  
post #35 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:18 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 11,399
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4052 Post(s)
Liked: 4568
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post
the output drops like a rock from 20hz.
The inuke has a 20hz HPF limit, but regardless his graph is completely flat to 16hz, which is all you'll get from 16hz ported subs.

But regardless, 4 18's simply isn't loud-enough.
He needs more subwoofers if he is clipping/melting/bottoming out his existing ones.

Adding more subwoofers will automatically improve the SQ (because excursion and watts/heat causes distortion), and more subwoofers helps reduce excursion/watts for a given SPL.
It also smooths the FR, because you have more subwoofers.
It also reduces your ability to localize them, because the bass is coming at you from all directions, by default.
Win-Win
BassThatHz is online now  
post #36 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:26 PM
eXa
Senior Member
 
eXa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The inuke has a 20hz HPF limit, but regardless his graph is completely flat to 16hz

No it isn't, look again on the un-equalized graph.

And he uses NX6000, that's non dsp. He uses Minidsp.




More subs is better, shure. But it isn't a very good advice if the problem is placement.
markmon1 and trevordj like this.

Last edited by eXa; 06-09-2020 at 05:31 PM.
eXa is offline  
post #37 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:43 PM
Advanced Member
 
peniku8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 793
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Small experiment you can do: just run a single sub and turn it up to max on the amp. Now reduce the level by 12db. The difference you heard should be similar when running one sub at max vs running 4 at max.
4x18 not being "enough" sounds wierd to me, but then I don't know how much midbass those UM drivers output. I'm pretty happy with two 21ds115 in the SKHorn. I even went from a 13KW amp to a 1KW amp and don't hit clipping at all. My room response is pretty flat to 16Hz as well.
You might be running a sub (or even two, who knows?) out of phase. Maybe check your wiring. I usually check phase by feeding the cabs a 2Hz sine wave. It's slow enough to see if the cones move into the same direction.

A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
peniku8 is offline  
post #38 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:46 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 11,399
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4052 Post(s)
Liked: 4568
He "might" be able to improve 95hz and 120hz, but a few extra db at 16hz really isn't gonna be a world of difference since most music and many movies don't have a lot of 16hz to reproduce.

16hz is for earthquakes and pipe organ stuff (like the 64ft tall organs) and songs like BassILoveU etc.
The "chest-kick/feel-da-bass" region is closer to 40-300hz, which is pretty much all-explosions, shockwaves, drums, bass guitar, dance beat, and all-other genres of music outside of basically: extreme-basshead music.

Generally 16hz -0db isn't gonna make you go "WOW" if the rest of the mid-bass SPL is substantially below your expectations.

I'm guessing he is either an ex-carhead or some level of new found bass-head to consider quad 18's weak.
There is really no cure for that rabbit hole.
Houses are substantially more difficult to generate bass than cars are, sheet-metal on-springs on-rubber has insane vibs, concrete basements or 2x8 floors, not so much...
Basically: Pressurizing a broom-closet vs pressurizing a room that leaks into other rooms via HVAC ducts/hallways/open spaces and lack of door seals etc etc etc.

Q: How many subs are needed?
A: Yes!
eXa, SuperFist and bebb like this.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-09-2020 at 05:57 PM.
BassThatHz is online now  
post #39 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 05:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
peniku8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 793
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 430
The good thing is that you can fit more subs into a house than you could fit into a car!
SuperFist likes this.

A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
peniku8 is offline  
post #40 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 06:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnplayerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 713
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Most people that find themselves underwhelmed, are lacking a proper , "full pro audio signal", at the amplifier inputs. I would suggest applying a matchbox, such as the aphex 124 with a cheater plug, or an ART cleanbox pro. Only about 1/4 of the gain you think you have will actually be useful as a helper, because the gain is also designed for consumer audio, and not pro.

This will mean tossing your rca to xlr cables in favor of Rca cables running from your dsp to the matchbox, and and another pair of xlr cables running to the amplifier.

AVSCIENCE.COM. topic = 459.60
A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

Last edited by johnplayerson; 06-09-2020 at 06:19 PM.
johnplayerson is offline  
post #41 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 06:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
EndersShadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 6,304
Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked: 1568
I'm happy to try and help but we have a bunch of information out there and we need more context to. I've tried to compile it best I can below:

Equipment:
  • Subs: 16 cf ported box tuned to 16 hz, loaded with UM18 x 4
  • Power: 2 Behringer NX6000
  • Power info: I have the knobs turned all the way up. When I'm pushing them, the clipping red light will come on. Only for a split second though.
  • Other Equipment in chain: MiniDSP HD


Questions/Request for additional information on Equipment:
  • Are the NX6000 on a dedicated circuit? Yes/No
  • If Yes - what amperage? 15 amp, 20 amp, etc
  • If No - what other items are also connected to this circuit
  • Post screenshots of your MiniDSP configuration for each tab
Room:
  • Size: 12' across, 20 ft deep, and 8 ft high. So 1,920 sq ft. I sit 11' from MLP.
  • Misc info: The bass quality is okay. I think I was hoping for just a little more there too. I hear a little overhang on the bass. I have bass traps and heavily treated theater (about 30%). Whole front wall (membrane), 20% of side and back wall.
  • Graph from post 15:
  • Graph from original post:
Questions/Request for additional information on Room Configuration
  • Please post pictures of your room so we can see where each sub is located in relation to the other subs, your seating, and your room treatments
  • The graphs, what order are they in? Is the first graph the initial configuration and the second is after running your AVR's room correction? Is it after doing work in REW to export filters into the MiniDSP, etc
eXa, Bryce2320 and bebb like this.

My Setup | Custom MiniDSP Build | FS: If its For Sale, find it all (here)
Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
EndersShadow is online now  
post #42 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 06:12 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: North America
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked: 311
Question

JMAX2016

hover/mega BOSS is what you are looking for!!.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...read-bass.html

what-i-d-do-differently-next-timehttps://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...l#post55641388
Epson Projector Power Supply Failure.https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...lure-rate.html
avtvhdbass is offline  
post #43 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 06:22 PM
eXa
Senior Member
 
eXa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 256
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
Most people that find themselves underwhelmed, are lacking a proper , "full pro audio signal", at the amplifier inputs. I would suggest applying a matchbox, such as the aphex 124 with a cheater plug, or an ART cleanbox pro. Only about 1/4 of the gain you think you have will actually be useful as a helper, because the gain is also designed for consumer audio, and not pro.

This will mean tossing your rca to xlr cables in favor of Rca cables running from your dsp to the matchbox, and and another pair of xlr cables running to the amplifier.

The NX6000 has a input sensitivity of 0.775v tho.
trevordj likes this.
eXa is offline  
post #44 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 06:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
johnplayerson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 713
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 329 Post(s)
Liked: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXa View Post
The NX6000 has a input sensitivity of 0.775v tho.

Does not matter..........

AVSCIENCE.COM. topic = 459.60
A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.
johnplayerson is offline  
post #45 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 07:00 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
BassThatHz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Northern Okan range (NW Cascades region)
Posts: 11,399
Mentioned: 257 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4052 Post(s)
Liked: 4568
I don't think XLR will help in this case, given the inukes input sensitivity. Dynamic range is not lost if the gain is sufficient. (A clipped amp suggests it is fully saturated at 0dbFS, at least on the output side, which is basically: all-da-watts it has.)

hmm... it's possible that he is undervolting his amplifiers with overloaded circuitry.
However, even in like a worse-case scenario of say 50% of the power being unavailable some-how, that is still only a -3db loss. I don't know...

The nasty sounds are probably from the clipping. There is no way he is at 90db unless he has reversed some wires or DSP polarity or is running internally-opposed coils.

Generally my rule of thumb is: if it's clipping and still weak, then you need quadruple the system... (doubling at an absolute-minimum...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
The good thing is that you can fit more subs into a house than you could fit into a car!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	44lolf.jpg
Views:	403
Size:	41.6 KB
ID:	2739684  
SuperFist likes this.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-09-2020 at 07:04 PM.
BassThatHz is online now  
post #46 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 08:57 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
So guys, I was working in the theater today and tonight. Sorry for the long delay and thank you for helping. I'm going to give more info.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2332.jpg
Views:	163
Size:	108.3 KB
ID:	2739758  

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen

Last edited by JMAX2016; 06-09-2020 at 09:43 PM.
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #47 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
Post your waterfall. Are you after louder/more or quality?
Here is my waterfall. I know I am after louder. Better quality would be nice... But I feel like I am kind of stuck with the mid quality that I have...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-06-10 at 12.08.14 AM.png
Views:	140
Size:	1.09 MB
ID:	2739786  

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #48 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The inuke has a 20hz HPF limit, but regardless his graph is completely flat to 16hz, which is all you'll get from 16hz ported subs.

But regardless, 4 18's simply isn't loud-enough.
He needs more subwoofers if he is clipping/melting/bottoming out his existing ones.

Adding more subwoofers will automatically improve the SQ (because excursion and watts/heat causes distortion), and more subwoofers helps reduce excursion/watts for a given SPL.
It also smooths the FR, because you have more subwoofers.
It also reduces your ability to localize them, because the bass is coming at you from all directions, by default.
Win-Win
So this is hitting the nail on the nail on the head. The SQ is decent as long as I'm not pushing them. If I am running them mid volume, I like them.

This leads me to believe that I just need more of them. But as you can see, my mid bass is lacking a little...

So what should my next steps be?

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #49 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I'm happy to try and help but we have a bunch of information out there and we need more context to. I've tried to compile it best I can below:

Equipment:
  • Subs: 16 cf ported box tuned to 16 hz, loaded with UM18 x 4
  • Power: 2 Behringer NX6000
  • Power info: I have the knobs turned all the way up. When I'm pushing them, the clipping red light will come on. Only for a split second though.
  • Other Equipment in chain: MiniDSP HD


Questions/Request for additional information on Equipment:
  • Are the NX6000 on a dedicated circuit? Yes/No
  • If Yes - what amperage? 15 amp, 20 amp, etc
  • If No - what other items are also connected to this circuit
  • Post screenshots of your MiniDSP configuration for each tab
Room:
  • Size: 12' across, 20 ft deep, and 8 ft high. So 1,920 sq ft. I sit 11' from MLP.
  • Misc info: The bass quality is okay. I think I was hoping for just a little more there too. I hear a little overhang on the bass. I have bass traps and heavily treated theater (about 30%). Whole front wall (membrane), 20% of side and back wall.
  • Graph from post 15:
  • Graph from original post:
Questions/Request for additional information on Room Configuration
  • Please post pictures of your room so we can see where each sub is located in relation to the other subs, your seating, and your room treatments
  • The graphs, what order are they in? Is the first graph the initial configuration and the second is after running your AVR's room correction? Is it after doing work in REW to export filters into the MiniDSP, etc

I'll make this the long post, so we can all go off of this one.
I was working on the theater tonight.
Here is what my room looks like. I don't know why the sub pictures are showing sideways in the individual pictures.

Tonight I rotated the front two subs so both point towards the side walls on the outside of the center channel. Just to compare, here is a picture of where they were before. The second to last picture in the attachments is the current measurement with the subs facing out towards the L&R. The last picture is the overlay, the blue is subs faced out, the orange is subs faced in. Looks like moving them to facing out towards L&R gave me more mid-bass, more SPL, more linear, seems like a good move right? Again, no filters on the minidsp.

Today I was pounding the subs pretty hard. Multiple times, I took them to distortion, and then turned them down.

Does it sound good? Yes. Does it sound great and impressive? Honestly, it's okay. I want great! The problem is is that I may not have the room for many more if any. Which makes me wonder if I need to try and put another UM-18 on the top part of the boxes. But then would that mess up the ports I have in there.

Ugh... I want it to sound great. That's the bottom line, so what should I do?

The amps are on two different circuits. I had them on one, and it tripped the breaker a few times. Since putting them on two different ones, they have not. I don't know if it's 15 or 20 amps. On the one circuit I just have one of the 6000's, and then on the other one, I have my receiver and the other 6000.

Not to over complicate things, but I have been eyeing up DIYSG new Titan 818's, 615, or any other model that you guys would suggest. That may help with mid-bass (may not be enough I don't know.)

You guys are awesome thank you!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2249.jpg
Views:	158
Size:	109.5 KB
ID:	2739788   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2253.jpg
Views:	150
Size:	95.2 KB
ID:	2739790   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2333.jpg
Views:	148
Size:	79.7 KB
ID:	2739792   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2334.jpg
Views:	144
Size:	61.9 KB
ID:	2739794   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2337.jpg
Views:	136
Size:	62.5 KB
ID:	2739796  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2336.jpg
Views:	129
Size:	50.5 KB
ID:	2739798   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2332.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	108.3 KB
ID:	2739800   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-06-10 at 12.59.14 AM.png
Views:	113
Size:	624.2 KB
ID:	2739806   Click image for larger version

Name:	Latest.png
Views:	93
Size:	624.2 KB
ID:	2739990   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-06-10 at 12.18.51 PM.png
Views:	89
Size:	177.0 KB
ID:	2739992  


Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen

Last edited by JMAX2016; 06-10-2020 at 09:20 AM.
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #50 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Small experiment you can do: just run a single sub and turn it up to max on the amp. Now reduce the level by 12db. The difference you heard should be similar when running one sub at max vs running 4 at max.
4x18 not being "enough" sounds wierd to me, but then I don't know how much midbass those UM drivers output. I'm pretty happy with two 21ds115 in the SKHorn. I even went from a 13KW amp to a 1KW amp and don't hit clipping at all. My room response is pretty flat to 16Hz as well.
You might be running a sub (or even two, who knows?) out of phase. Maybe check your wiring. I usually check phase by feeding the cabs a 2Hz sine wave. It's slow enough to see if the cones move into the same direction.
Thank you. I actually did check phase with the subs. I hooked up a AA battery, and each time the woofer fired out. That's correct right? Sorry, I'm a newbie with DIY. I won't be after this year though haha. I have the bug for sure.

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #51 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 06:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Vince_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NE TN USA
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 246
Less smoothing on the waterfall would help, that table shaped feature I’m not sure about. That looks like a lot of hang time though.

For grins I would immediately take advantage of your front/back layout and just try a dba. It’s simple, just set the rear subs to inverted polarity and add delay, this basically makes your back subs active absorbers. You can calculate the delay based on room dimensions for a starting point and then tweak and measure. Here’s a link to an existing thread where I also did some experiments using just one sub front and one back, it convinced me the value of this approach.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post57827428

There’s info about calculating delay etc and some waterfalls and measurements of comparisons between normal operation and the dba setup. Note the waterfall time window is 500ms compared to your one second for reference. Note the less smoothed response is more useful to see what’s going on.

In theory this will be less bass since you’re using half the subs, but in practice it reduces boominess due to modes. It also makes a dramatic difference in variance from one seat to another. Once you set it up listen to a couple scenes with big explosions with impact and see what you think. I noticed that the bass will tend to pulse past you and not boom around in the room.

You’re probably sitting in a big null and maybe have tried to eq it out or maybe not, but the seats look to me like they are in probably the best location to minimize nulls, but will still suffer as all rooms do, particularly small rooms where the bass just rolls around like waves in the ocean. Bass traps are not going to be nearly as effective as active absorption, which is essentially what a dba is.

More subs is usually more bass banging around in the room and in my experience, you can spend hours or days trying every location under the sun and you will never tame the modes completely.

As to quantity and loudness, if you try it as a dba and it’s not loud enough you can always stack them and have four front and four back which would just enhance the dba anyway. If that isn’t enough bass you probably need to park a diesel locomotive in there
Vince_B is offline  
post #52 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 06:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
Zarkoff500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 639
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 190
Also, the inukes typically have the phase inverted. Have you tried changing the phase to 180 and see how that sounds/measures?
LTD02 likes this.
Zarkoff500 is offline  
post #53 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
Less smoothing on the waterfall would help, that table shaped feature I’m not sure about. That looks like a lot of hang time though.

For grins I would immediately take advantage of your front/back layout and just try a dba. It’s simple, just set the rear subs to inverted polarity and add delay, this basically makes your back subs active absorbers. You can calculate the delay based on room dimensions for a starting point and then tweak and measure. Here’s a link to an existing thread where I also did some experiments using just one sub front and one back, it convinced me the value of this approach.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post57827428

There’s info about calculating delay etc and some waterfalls and measurements of comparisons between normal operation and the dba setup. Note the waterfall time window is 500ms compared to your one second for reference. Note the less smoothed response is more useful to see what’s going on.

In theory this will be less bass since you’re using half the subs, but in practice it reduces boominess due to modes. It also makes a dramatic difference in variance from one seat to another. Once you set it up listen to a couple scenes with big explosions with impact and see what you think. I noticed that the bass will tend to pulse past you and not boom around in the room.

You’re probably sitting in a big null and maybe have tried to eq it out or maybe not, but the seats look to me like they are in probably the best location to minimize nulls, but will still suffer as all rooms do, particularly small rooms where the bass just rolls around like waves in the ocean. Bass traps are not going to be nearly as effective as active absorption, which is essentially what a dba is.

More subs is usually more bass banging around in the room and in my experience, you can spend hours or days trying every location under the sun and you will never tame the modes completely.

As to quantity and loudness, if you try it as a dba and it’s not loud enough you can always stack them and have four front and four back which would just enhance the dba anyway. If that isn’t enough bass you probably need to park a diesel locomotive in there
Not going to lie, this one might be over my head haha.

Is there any type of bass trapping or DIY membrane trapping that I can do to shorten the decay time from 40-90hz? Why is the decay time so long there? Above 225hz, my theater measures less than 0.1 seconds decay. This picture is from my old subs and everything else the same. I would think less than 0.1 would sound dead, but to me, it doesn't.

When you say stack, do you mean for me to make a cutout on the front above the sub on the pre-existing cabs? I know my space is running short...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2020-06-10 at 10.52.26 AM.png
Views:	68
Size:	1.20 MB
ID:	2739952  

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #54 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
Also, the inukes typically have the phase inverted. Have you tried changing the phase to 180 and see how that sounds/measures?
I haven't. I tried looking for a button on the amp, but I don't think there is one. Maybe on the older model there is?

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #55 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Vince_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NE TN USA
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 246
4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

How long is the room front to back? It’s pretty simple to set up in your minidsp, I can send you the rough timing and you just click the invert option in minidsp.

No I meant stack another sub on yours but then I looked at the pics of your room lol can’t stack.
Vince_B is offline  
post #56 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
JMAX2016's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: York, PA
Posts: 248
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 161 Post(s)
Liked: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
How long is the room front to back? It’s pretty simple to set up in your minidsp, I can send you the rough timing and you just click the invert option in minidsp.

No I meant stack another sub on yours but then I looked at the pics of your room lol can’t stack.
Lol. Yeah, can't stack... Wish I had more room.

The total length is 238" (19.83ft).

Yamaha Aventage 3060, 7.2.4
Goldenear Triton 1's, Supercenter XXL, 4-MPX, 4-652
4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
JVC RS500 Pro, Panasonic DP-UB820 UHD Blu-Ray Player
137" wide 16:9 V6 AT Screen
JMAX2016 is offline  
post #57 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:37 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Vince_B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: NE TN USA
Posts: 1,519
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 246
4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

Okay then say 20’/1125 feet per second = 17.8 ms. So set your rear subs to 17 or 18 ms delay and set them inverted.

Adjust your window in rew to be 0-100hz. Set less smoothing, you need more detail to see, 1/24 or 1/48 I forget it’s been awhile. Get some peaks and such like the graphs I linked so you can really see the modes, yours is way too smoothed. Take a measurement before you set the above in minidsp, leave the mic and everything exactly the same, then set the delay and invert the rears, then measure again. Try 17ms, 18ms etc.

The delay is not set in stone, if you think about it, the cones are not flush in a wall baffle so the walls are 20’ but the cone to cone distance is less, but then the modes are determined by the walls. So not exact and you’ll find playing with it that you can enhance or suppress certain modes with different delays.

Easy to try and I’m curious your outcome. Especially since you have four subs there.
bebb likes this.
Vince_B is offline  
post #58 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 09:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
peniku8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 793
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 431 Post(s)
Liked: 430
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
Is there any type of bass trapping or DIY membrane trapping that I can do to shorten the decay time from 40-90hz?
Yes and it would need to be 6 feet thick to be remotely effective at 40Hz (quarter of a wavelength).
I also once got fooled by the name ‚bass trap‘.

A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn - BOSS
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
peniku8 is offline  
post #59 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 09:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jedi940's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 262
Try checking the input on the MiniDSP. It could be getting clipped from your receiver causing your sound quality issue. I had that issue with a Marantz receiver. I ended up having to set my sub trim to -12 in the receiver so the mini didn't get over driven. You can check this 1 of 2 ways.
1. watch the level meter in the software of the mini dsp but there is a bit of lag there.
2. Turn down the attenuation knobs on the amp all the way so that they are only 1 click up from fully counter-clockwise. Play a 40 hz sine wave with REW. Slowly turn up the volume on the receiver until you hit 0. You will hear an audible change in the note from clean to distorted if the mini gets clipped.
bebb likes this.
Jedi940 is offline  
post #60 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 11:01 AM
Advanced Member
 
Zarkoff500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 639
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 271 Post(s)
Liked: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
Also, the inukes typically have the phase inverted. Have you tried changing the phase to 180 and see how that sounds/measures?
I haven't. I tried looking for a button on the amp, but I don't think there is one. Maybe on the older model there is?
Sorry, I just remembered this is the non DSP version and I am not sure if the phase is 180 on those as well.
Zarkoff500 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off