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post #61 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 12:34 PM
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so... i'm not the expert, but i can tell you that you have an integration issue... looking at the waterfall from your svs vs. the new subs, you have a ton of ringing from 40Hz up on the new integration...

I'd probably go read up on MSO... this is probably the best way to integrate multiple subs, as it calculates all the delays/filters for each sub to get the best response... it will probably help with the ringing you are seeing... it is either placement/integration/both since it wasn't there with your svs subs...

i'm watching eagerly to see what the solution is.... you are ahead of me, since im still framing...

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post #62 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 05:08 PM
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Oh...
If he hasn't set his delays for the rear subs that could change everything.

Also, keep in mind that you can only do two things:
1) Make the golden seat perfect.
2) Make all the seats some-what ok.

The one exception to that rule might be a DBA alignment. Given how big those subs are relatively to the room I doubt you'll have much success doing that physically as-is.

The bad news is you are hitting up against the Iron law triangle.
Out of: price, space or SPL... you can only have two of them concurrently!

You want high SPL but are limited on space, which means the solution will be VERY costly.

You'd have to throw out your existing subs and go with at-least 4 sealed 24's and a XBS FP20k + miniDSP to have a fighting chance of high-spl in that room/space.

The only other solution is maybe switch from ported to sealed and add a BOAT LOAD more UM-18 and lots and lots of power (think XBS FP20k's...) That might even require a new 200-400amp service drop or pulling more/thicker wires to support the wattage.

Maybe you could add a bunch of B&C 21's and tune them to 30hz instead of 16hz, or make them sealed.

Alternatively adding 32 PA-460's in your room by basically building two of the dual-opposed sealed boxes I built for my MBM's, two in the front and two in the back. Powered with 2 FP20k's.

Yeah... there is literally no cheap way to get louder in your space!!!
The only thing that comes to mind is Quad Devastators maybe...

Adding powerful mains would help to a degree FOR-SURE.
I mean it literally looks like you have a 6db/oct 30hz LPF set in your inuke's. It looks like a house-curve but you are saying the DSP is OFF.

Do you have some funky AVR EQ enabled or what?

If you measure about 3inches away from the cone-middle it should be almost ruler flat to 200hz or whatever LPF you have set... (assuming you are measuring 1 sub at a time)

Something ain't fully right with this rig.
Are your subs summing 6db per pair like they should be or what?

You should be over 120db, if not 130db in that space with those subs... I would hazard a guess.
Definitely not no 90db...
Are you SURE you ain't a basshead?
SuperFist and bebb like this.

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post #63 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 05:54 PM
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Also you’re not under waterfall, you’re in rt60 delay. Click the right arrows to move over and try selecting waterfall.
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post #64 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
Also you’re not under waterfall, you’re in rt60 delay. Click the right arrows to move over and try selecting waterfall.
Sorry, here is my waterfall. Sorry I am new at REW. Trying...

I set it out to 1 second, and still there is ringing.?
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post #65 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Try checking the input on the MiniDSP. It could be getting clipped from your receiver causing your sound quality issue. I had that issue with a Marantz receiver. I ended up having to set my sub trim to -12 in the receiver so the mini didn't get over driven. You can check this 1 of 2 ways.
1. watch the level meter in the software of the mini dsp but there is a bit of lag there.
2. Turn down the attenuation knobs on the amp all the way so that they are only 1 click up from fully counter-clockwise. Play a 40 hz sine wave with REW. Slowly turn up the volume on the receiver until you hit 0. You will hear an audible change in the note from clean to distorted if the mini gets clipped.
Interesting, because when I am taking the measurements, the bass is not loud. AT ALL. It's like I thought it would want to measure it loud.

So turn the subs down on the receiver, turn the gain knobs on the amps down, and then run it?

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post #66 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
so... i'm not the expert, but i can tell you that you have an integration issue... looking at the waterfall from your svs vs. the new subs, you have a ton of ringing from 40Hz up on the new integration...

I'd probably go read up on MSO... this is probably the best way to integrate multiple subs, as it calculates all the delays/filters for each sub to get the best response... it will probably help with the ringing you are seeing... it is either placement/integration/both since it wasn't there with your svs subs...

i'm watching eagerly to see what the solution is.... you are ahead of me, since im still framing...
Wow, MSO looks awesome! I'll keep things up to date here. I was definitely naive. I thought I would just build them, set them up and go. Lol! I'm learning quickly...

Good luck with your project. I'm so addicted to this stuff haha

And thanks for helping.

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post #67 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
Yes and it would need to be 6 feet thick to be remotely effective at 40Hz (quarter of a wavelength).
I also once got fooled by the name ‚bass trap‘.
Only 6 feet huh? lol

I have heard this in the past... Minidsp, and delays, and MSO here I come... Lots of reading to do.

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post #68 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
Okay then say 20’/1125 feet per second = 17.8 ms. So set your rear subs to 17 or 18 ms delay and set them inverted.

Adjust your window in rew to be 0-100hz. Set less smoothing, you need more detail to see, 1/24 or 1/48 I forget it’s been awhile. Get some peaks and such like the graphs I linked so you can really see the modes, yours is way too smoothed. Take a measurement before you set the above in minidsp, leave the mic and everything exactly the same, then set the delay and invert the rears, then measure again. Try 17ms, 18ms etc.

The delay is not set in stone, if you think about it, the cones are not flush in a wall baffle so the walls are 20’ but the cone to cone distance is less, but then the modes are determined by the walls. So not exact and you’ll find playing with it that you can enhance or suppress certain modes with different delays.

Easy to try and I’m curious your outcome. Especially since you have four subs there.
I believe I can do this. A lot of this is over my head haha. I'll have some time next week to do this. It's weird, maybe my minidsp is working, but I feel like when I make a change or set a filter, things get worse... Weird right?

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post #69 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 07:49 PM
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That waterfall still doesn’t look right, that peak coming out at 60 doesn’t drop in magnitude. Also not sure if you changed settings to make it all red or if that’s a clue? Might want to default your rew (not sure how that’s done) and see. Normally waterfall is rainbow colored. Maybe run through your testing rig with us to see if something jumps out. They have a good tutorial, takes a few passes to understand. I’m rusty but did a couple sweeps this evening, there’s a lot to get right when testing.
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post #70 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Oh...
If he hasn't set his delays for the rear subs that could change everything.

Also, keep in mind that you can only do two things:
1) Make the golden seat perfect.
2) Make all the seats some-what ok.

The one exception to that rule might be a DBA alignment. Given how big those subs are relatively to the room I doubt you'll have much success doing that physically as-is.

The bad news is you are hitting up against the Iron law triangle.
Out of: price, space or SPL... you can only have two of them concurrently!

You want high SPL but are limited on space, which means the solution will be VERY costly.

You'd have to throw out your existing subs and go with at-least 4 sealed 24's and a XBS FP20k + miniDSP to have a fighting chance of high-spl in that room/space.

The only other solution is maybe switch from ported to sealed and add a BOAT LOAD more UM-18 and lots and lots of power (think XBS FP20k's...) That might even require a new 200-400amp service drop or pulling more/thicker wires to support the wattage.

Maybe you could add a bunch of B&C 21's and tune them to 30hz instead of 16hz, or make them sealed.

Alternatively adding 32 PA-460's in your room by basically building two of the dual-opposed sealed boxes I built for my MBM's, two in the front and two in the back. Powered with 2 FP20k's.

Yeah... there is literally no cheap way to get louder in your space!!!
The only thing that comes to mind is Quad Devastators maybe...

Adding powerful mains would help to a degree FOR-SURE.
I mean it literally looks like you have a 6db/oct 30hz LPF set in your inuke's. It looks like a house-curve but you are saying the DSP is OFF.

Do you have some funky AVR EQ enabled or what?

If you measure about 3inches away from the cone-middle it should be almost ruler flat to 200hz or whatever LPF you have set... (assuming you are measuring 1 sub at a time)

Something ain't fully right with this rig.
Are your subs summing 6db per pair like they should be or what?

You should be over 120db, if not 130db in that space with those subs... I would hazard a guess.
Definitely not no 90db...
Are you SURE you ain't a basshead?
Lol. I'm definitely a basshead! Craig John from Lancaster called that one years ago.

It's apparent that I need to do more reading on setting delays. I was very naive to all of this. It's super fun, but I didn't know half of this. That being said, when I set delays for the rears, the SPL went down.?

Would it make sense to say that my SVS PB-16's sounded deeper? Is that what you mean when you say it looks like I have a LPF set at 30hz? There is no doubt that I have more SPL with these four, vs two of the 16's but the 16's sounded deeper. The red is the 16's, compared to the blue and gold that I have now.

EQ on the receiver is set to through. When I turn the back two on, I am getting the 6db jump. I didn't measure this, just a guess, but its defiantly louder.

120-130db sounds about right to me. If the little bass around 95db I measure is right, it is much louder when running them to near distortion.

Crazy idea... I know I have to do a lot reading, but would this drawing ever work, or is this stupid? (See picture) Could I divide the box on the inside to two boxes, cut a hole in the top front for the other UM-18, and run ports out the top front? With the bottom sub, stuff one of the ports to keep a low tune. Just a crazy thought...
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post #71 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:08 PM
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Are your subs are humming? That’s the 60hz spike. It sounds like you’re testing at too low a level from your comment and results. A good tip is run a sweep, if it’s not too loud go up 5 db and run again and just eyeball the graphs. If they look same you’re okay in general terms. I ran sweeps at -25 this evening. Started at -30 and then increased. AC was running and it’s close to the room so I wanted to make sure it wasn’t contributing to the measurement.

If I’m running a lot of 10-200 sweeps I’ll wear earplugs just because the upper end can be annoying. Anyway I bet if you increase volume the graph will look different. If the room isn’t quiet you’ll pick up that noise and more volume helps. You don’t need anything too loud and iirc I was running the old sweeps at -25.
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post #72 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:37 PM
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Looked through the thread, some thoughts.

Your first post looks like you peq’d your way to flatness which is not practical. You mentioned clipping at low levels which makes me think that.

You may not know, every 3db takes twice the power. If you add a 12 boost for instance you’re asking way more from the amp. Just getting that out there.

Is audyssey on in your receiver? If so turn it off. Set sub trim to zero in receiver. Set your mains to 80hz or something higher. Set minidsp input/output gain to zero. Check everything in minidsp, peq, crossovers (disable), etc. Get it all back to simple and no correction. Run a sweep on just the fronts. Get the level right (turn up master volume) and play around until it looks reasonable. Then test just the backs. Then add some delay like BTH says and test.

See if you can get some graphs that we can agree look legit. And no need to apologize, I’m rusty on rew too, we moved and been here a year and just getting my stuff hooked back up. I actually have been trying to get my second 24 up to the media room to try the dba (or more accurately active absorption) and I only had a few minutes and the results were not as good, but the room is 42 foot long attic with sloped ceilings and less than ideal circumstances. In practice though it is sounding pretty good so far. Anyway good luck and let us know.
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post #73 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's. They are good. But it's not enough...
Now what???? What should my next steps be?

I'm using a minidsp. Graph looks good. Like I said, they are good. But it's not it. Should 21's be my next move? Which ones? What should I do with the Ulitmax's?


Help! haha
What kind of miniDSP do you have?
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post #74 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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What kind of miniDSP do you have?
2x4HD

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post #75 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 09:03 PM
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Yeah, didn’t notice that other graph was rt60... ignore half my other post...

But , yeah.. still an integration thing... I mostly/sorta agree with Bass, in that it’s optimize the snot out of the golden seat and put your head in a vice, or get really even bass across many seats... though with 4 subs, MSO, and a miniDSP, the delta should be less...

As for the lack of “pounding”... there’s other stuff to check... do you have any differences in AVR setup? Did you rerun YPAO? Are all you speakers set to small (they should be unless you want a ton more integration work, and electronics). What’s the waterfall look like a foot in each direction from the one you currently posted? That might help us understand what the room is doing more... and I can’t remember your seating location vs the room dimensions... is the room open to other areas? Or sealed rectangular theater?

Oh, and don’t know that Yamaha model, but if you have dual sub outputs you want to run them in mono or split one output to the miniDSP, and output your different signals there....

Finally, and this won’t be popular with everyone here... don’t try and time align your subs... essentially MSO will try and eq and phase adjust each sub two the summer response hits the target you are looking for ( there are options). Most I think aim to get the most even response across seats by default though I can’t remember. Subs and rooms are a minimum phase system, so you don’t need to time align the signals at the listening position... like the DBA concept, MSO is going to alter each sub output individually based on the singular output to get the subs together to reproduce it at the mic position. It’s not a DBA though...

Good luck, the MSO stuff really is an example of folks that actually understand the Harmon and Geddes research and making it happen so to speak... I’m just a troglodyte that clicks buttons and don’t understand all the magic... . ( no offense meant to troglodytes...)

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post #76 of 240 Old 06-10-2020, 09:32 PM
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MSO might help with smoothing frequency response and improving seat to seat consistency, but it's unlikely to help your output situation.

REW makes it quick and easy to get maximum summation of multiple subwoofers.

Cannot overstate how important that the first step be having the subs in the most optimal positions available.

Save a backup of your minidsp settings, then reset your eq and delays to zero.

Take measurements of each sub individually. Designate one of your mains for the acoustic timing reference.

Look at the impulse for each sub, set the dropdown in upper left of graph to %.

You want the first major peak of the impulse response to be the same direction and at the same time for each subwoofer.

The x axis is in milliseconds, using your furthest sub as the reference point, drag the cursor on the graphs to determine the precise time of the impulse,

then use the difference to determine the appropriate delay for each of the closer subs.

Invert phase as necessary if impulse peak is mirrored upside-down compared to the others.

Try some demo material to get an idea of the available output before applying eq.

If you are satisfied, then proceed with further optomization.

If not, placement needs improved, something is not functioning properly, or you prefer the bass outrageously hot and need more subs.
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post #77 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 03:27 AM
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Replace the subs behind the screen with two Skhorns and move the UMs all to the back. Cross em over at 40Hz.
That should satisfy every bass head.
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post #78 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
There is no doubt that I have more SPL with these four, vs two of the 16's but the 16's sounded deeper.
It's an odd concept but a suckout at a higher frequency can give the illusion of deeper bass because lower frequencies are higher in SPL. If you pull down 40hz with Eq the way it was with the SVS subs, it will likely duplicate the deeper effect. The ringing at 60hz is likely also contributing to the perceived low bass deficit.
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post #79 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:59 AM
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4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

The 60hz has got to be hum, it’s not decaying at all in the graph. I think the level is too low when he’s measuring.

Also it’s possible that the umik isn’t selected and the measurement is through the laptop mic. The graphs just don’t look right to me

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post #80 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
Interesting, because when I am taking the measurements, the bass is not loud. AT ALL. It's like I thought it would want to measure it loud.

So turn the subs down on the receiver, turn the gain knobs on the amps down, and then run it?
You don't need to turn the subs down in the receiver yet. That is the solution. First we have to determine if that is even a problem. To do that, play a single tone and turn up the volume on the receiver to your max listening volume (usually 0) and see if the tone changes from clean to distorted. There will be a noticeable change in the note if there is. The purpose of turning the amps down is simply to save your hearing and your amp from possibly being clipped. We just need to hear the tone, it doesn't have to be loud to determine if the MiniDSP is being clipped. You can also watch the level meters in the software to see if they go above 0 while doing this. If you perform this test and hear the audible distortion as well as see the level meters go above 0 in the software, then we know your Mini DSP is being clipped. To compensate for this, there are 2 things to do. One is to open up the MiniDSP and switch the jumper to change the input sensitivity. This is described in the manual on page 16. After doing this, you'll want to perform the test again. Play a sine wave and listen to the tone for a change in pitch as you turn up the volume in the receiver. If you are still clipping the inputs of the MiniDSP, you have to compensate by turning down the sub levels in your receiver. Turn them down by a few db and re-run the test. If you still hear distortion, turn them down a few more db, wash, rinse, repeat until you no longer hear clipping with the receiver at your max volume. Once you have noted where this is, make a note of it. If you re-run any room correction it will change these values and bring the problem back.

Again, this will only solve a sound quality problem. As far as why your system isn't as loud as you expected, this could be an integration problem which is solved by following the advice of others and going through the guides on AVS.

As an aside, when taking measurements, you generally want to do that as loud as possible without clipping the mic. REW will let you know when this happens. The reason for doing the sweeps loudly is to be far enough above the noise floor of the room in order to not have that influence the measurements.
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post #81 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 07:36 AM
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what is your crossover set at? seems like it might be set around 60 Hz? as mentioned, try bumping that up to 80, 90, or even 100 Hz... it might give you better integration as well... lot's to try i know...

I think based on your room and equipment you should have enough output to get a similar experience to what you had with the SVS subs... though, some of that might have been non linear, and now you have better response overall (more even) with 4 vs. 2 subs... like, when you go from 1 to 2+ subs, most folks feel like they lost bass, but it is that they are used to boominess/peaks/nulls that aren't there or as bad anymore... perhaps some of what you are experiencing is that...

though, the steep rolloff before 80 Hz is something I'd change... the room still dominates from 60-100 hz unless you have a ginormous room... I like pushing the crossover as high as possible without localizing... most of that is because all this timing, phasing, etc. for the bass sources is just harder when the mains are also producing a lot of 60-80Hz content...

after all that, the other thing to try... can you adjust the target curve for YPAO? instead of bumping the sub trim, you want a gradual rise as you get lower in frequency depending on taste... the other option you get with Denon/Marantz (not sure what the Yamaha equivalent is), is dynamic eq... it raises the bass to keep it audible basically trying to follow the fletcher munson curves when you aren't listening at reference, which most don't do at least all the time...

that's important btw... all the calibration is meant to play the correct amount of bass when listening at reference... when you are listening lower than that, the bass is less noticeable compared to the other frequencies (sounds quieter/unbalanced)... that is the reason a lot of folks run house curve for their listening volume, or use dynamic eq to compensate...

Are you having fun yet!? LOL, good luck getting it to sound the way you want!

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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
You don't need to turn the subs down in the receiver yet. That is the solution. First we have to determine if that is even a problem. To do that, play a single tone and turn up the volume on the receiver to your max listening volume (usually 0) and see if the tone changes from clean to distorted. There will be a noticeable change in the note if there is. The purpose of turning the amps down is simply to save your hearing and your amp from possibly being clipped. We just need to hear the tone, it doesn't have to be loud to determine if the MiniDSP is being clipped. You can also watch the level meters in the software to see if they go above 0 while doing this. If you perform this test and hear the audible distortion as well as see the level meters go above 0 in the software, then we know your Mini DSP is being clipped. To compensate for this, there are 2 things to do. One is to open up the MiniDSP and switch the jumper to change the input sensitivity. This is described in the manual on page 16. After doing this, you'll want to perform the test again. Play a sine wave and listen to the tone for a change in pitch as you turn up the volume in the receiver. If you are still clipping the inputs of the MiniDSP, you have to compensate by turning down the sub levels in your receiver. Turn them down by a few db and re-run the test. If you still hear distortion, turn them down a few more db, wash, rinse, repeat until you no longer hear clipping with the receiver at your max volume. Once you have noted where this is, make a note of it. If you re-run any room correction it will change these values and bring the problem back.

Again, this will only solve a sound quality problem. As far as why your system isn't as loud as you expected, this could be an integration problem which is solved by following the advice of others and going through the guides on AVS.

As an aside, when taking measurements, you generally want to do that as loud as possible without clipping the mic. REW will let you know when this happens. The reason for doing the sweeps loudly is to be far enough above the noise floor of the room in order to not have that influence the measurements.
So last night at the advice of someone on the forum, I switch the jumper to the 4 spot for 4 VRMS. I was so hoping this solved it... It didn't.

Check out this screen shot. I noted clipping on all but one, and they weren't that loud. The loudest point was like 97db. Most were clipping at 95db. Also notice how they all look slightly different. On one, I would turn down the amps, leave receiver sub level the same, the next, receiver levels down, sub amps up. It just clips. Why? I don't understand what is going on. I uploaded the calibration file for the mic, etc. Oh and I looked at the DB levels through the mini dsp, it was getting loud, and the mini dsp was only hitting -18. Any thoughts? Should I switch jumper back to 2 VRMS?
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post #83 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
The 60hz has got to be hum, it’s not decaying at all in the graph. I think the level is too low when he’s measuring.

Also it’s possible that the umik isn’t selected and the measurement is through the laptop mic. The graphs just don’t look right to me
I am getting a nasty hum. So that's exactly right, that's the hum at 60hz.

I'm putting that on my list of fixes... Wanted to figure this out first.

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Okay cool. Did you go through and follow the steps I sent? Get it all reset and etc as my probably not perfect steps describe. Back to stock as they say. I feel like you have filters set that are clipping the amp input. You can’t boost your way flat.
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post #85 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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what is your crossover set at? seems like it might be set around 60 Hz? as mentioned, try bumping that up to 80, 90, or even 100 Hz... it might give you better integration as well... lot's to try i know...

I think based on your room and equipment you should have enough output to get a similar experience to what you had with the SVS subs... though, some of that might have been non linear, and now you have better response overall (more even) with 4 vs. 2 subs... like, when you go from 1 to 2+ subs, most folks feel like they lost bass, but it is that they are used to boominess/peaks/nulls that aren't there or as bad anymore... perhaps some of what you are experiencing is that...

though, the steep rolloff before 80 Hz is something I'd change... the room still dominates from 60-100 hz unless you have a ginormous room... I like pushing the crossover as high as possible without localizing... most of that is because all this timing, phasing, etc. for the bass sources is just harder when the mains are also producing a lot of 60-80Hz content...

after all that, the other thing to try... can you adjust the target curve for YPAO? instead of bumping the sub trim, you want a gradual rise as you get lower in frequency depending on taste... the other option you get with Denon/Marantz (not sure what the Yamaha equivalent is), is dynamic eq... it raises the bass to keep it audible basically trying to follow the fletcher munson curves when you aren't listening at reference, which most don't do at least all the time...

that's important btw... all the calibration is meant to play the correct amount of bass when listening at reference... when you are listening lower than that, the bass is less noticeable compared to the other frequencies (sounds quieter/unbalanced)... that is the reason a lot of folks run house curve for their listening volume, or use dynamic eq to compensate...

Are you having fun yet!? LOL, good luck getting it to sound the way you want!
Lol. Am I having fun yet.

I have my crossover set at 90hz.

Yes, I can give increase or decrease certain frequencies in the Yamaha.

I like your analogy with the 1 sub vs 2 sub. Possibly the SVS' sounded deeper because of the 40hz suck out I was getting.

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post #86 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay cool. Did you go through and follow the steps I sent? Get it all reset and etc as my probably not perfect steps describe. Back to stock as they say. I feel like you have filters set that are clipping the amp input. You can’t boost your way flat.
Was just about to respond to your last comment before this one.

I have nothing on. I did run YPAO, but I have it set to through. Which means that the receiver just uses the distance of the speaker, and no EQ or boost on anything.

Something interesting. Notice the measurements I just posted. See how when the mic clips how flat it looks.?

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post #87 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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It's an odd concept but a suckout at a higher frequency can give the illusion of deeper bass because lower frequencies are higher in SPL. If you pull down 40hz with Eq the way it was with the SVS subs, it will likely duplicate the deeper effect. The ringing at 60hz is likely also contributing to the perceived low bass deficit.
I feel like that is exactly right. The 40 not in a null is making the subs sound not as deep.

But do you also see how at around 20hz, the db was higher on the SVS's, and then drops? Making the house curve.

On the Ultimax's, there is a little bump at 20, then a louder bump at 30. Could that be what I'm hearing as well?

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post #88 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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MSO might help with smoothing frequency response and improving seat to seat consistency, but it's unlikely to help your output situation.

REW makes it quick and easy to get maximum summation of multiple subwoofers.

Cannot overstate how important that the first step be having the subs in the most optimal positions available.

Save a backup of your minidsp settings, then reset your eq and delays to zero.

Take measurements of each sub individually. Designate one of your mains for the acoustic timing reference.

Look at the impulse for each sub, set the dropdown in upper left of graph to %.

You want the first major peak of the impulse response to be the same direction and at the same time for each subwoofer.

The x axis is in milliseconds, using your furthest sub as the reference point, drag the cursor on the graphs to determine the precise time of the impulse,

then use the difference to determine the appropriate delay for each of the closer subs.

Invert phase as necessary if impulse peak is mirrored upside-down compared to the others.

Try some demo material to get an idea of the available output before applying eq.

If you are satisfied, then proceed with further optomization.

If not, placement needs improved, something is not functioning properly, or you prefer the bass outrageously hot and need more subs.
Wow, that seems like a great plan. I believe right now, I need to get my measurements figured out, and why it clips at such low volume. And then start those steps.

As far as placement, I am very very limited. Like inches limited. I have about 1.5 inches between the wall and back couch for the subs. Also the same thing behind the screen. My goal was to make the biggest enclosures that I could fit. May have been a mistake... ehh, I don't know.

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post #89 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 05:07 PM
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On one, I would turn down the amps, leave receiver sub level the same, the next, receiver levels down, sub amps up. It just clips. Why? I don't understand what is going on.
The knobs on the inuke are input attenuators, turning them up shouldn't cause the inukes to clip on the input or output unless the input signal is already too hot (or you have too much DSP boosting enabled), which appears to be your case based on your description.

You need to turn down your master volume or LFE trims.

The only thing that should EVER clip in a properly calibrated system is the amplifier outputs.
You need to be able to clip the amplifiers output's before clipping any upstream device or the amplifiers inputs, otherwise you won't be able to achieve maximum clean power.

90-100db should be plenty for evaluating subwoofer sweeps. You should be like -20db below clipping at this level or what-not, you shouldn't be anywhere near clipping anything at that SPL.

The loudness of normal speech at 3-6ft should be somewhere around 50-75db I'd imagine.
95db is like vacuum-cleaner loud.
110-120db is like chainsaw at full RPM at arms length loud.
For most people a pure 20hz sinewave in a quiet room becomes just-audible at somewhere around 60-70db.
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post #90 of 240 Old 06-11-2020, 05:25 PM
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Yeah, if you are clipping and only getting 95db, something else is going on for sure, maybe in addition to other things... I wonder if Bass hit it and you are clipping in the signal chain, though it should still be run from the room loud and sound like hot garbage....

I’m wondering if you have a faulty amp? Any way you can try running some music full range through it to a single speaker maybe using your phone or pc output? Just to see if even that is working properly... or if something else is foo’d up in the amp...

Other things worth trying that were mentioned I think are a full factory reset of the Yamaha...

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