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post #211 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 05:24 PM
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mad shout out to the wonderful community on the forum... it was a lot of time and patience from everyone (well, mostly @aron7awol ) to get this dialed in!

YPAO does have a dynamic volume setting... I know that is what it is called on Denon/Marantz... that will totally explain some of the weird curves for sure... especially when trying to run sweeps, lol...

I'd buy you guys a beer, but.... i'm far enough away i'd probably drink it before i got there...

@JMAX2016 , I'd buy ya a lager... err.. Yuengling... but there's so much better out there these days... which reminds me... i need to log off and finish my can of Unicorn Farts...

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post #212 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So how does it sound?

sounded more cohesive and cleaner.

Any other measurements I should run or test?
I'd really be curious what your waterfall/decay plots look like now...

should be a lot better. and it might show you more of what that membrane was/wasn't doing...

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post #213 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 08:08 PM
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He's got ... enough firepower to do just about anything he wants with it.
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
+25 dB hot?!?!?! Wow
Maybe I spoke too soon and underestimated him! Normally I'm thinking @BassThatHz is crazy with some of his over the top recommendations for normal, sane people, but in this case, he's actually barking up the right tree!

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and that drop off a cliff starting around 80Hz seems gone now too... nice work guys!
I think that cliff was actually the cliff of subs running way hotter than the mains and sweeping a main channel. But then after getting HDMI output working there was still a LPF on his LFE and I don't think that can be defeated on Yamaha AVRs. But we worked around that and now he's getting the most out of his subs, which is a LOT!
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post #214 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I'd really be curious what your waterfall/decay plots look like now...

should be a lot better. and it might show you more of what that membrane was/wasn't doing...
Here are the waterfall plots.
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post #215 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
Here are the waterfall plots.
Wow, crazy resonance at 60Hz...I thought that little cowlick in the FR on the full range sweeps you emailed me in that area looked a little suspicious. But that didn't show up on the LFE sweeps I don't think.

Edit: Went back and checked the sub sweeps. The cowlick isn't there but the ringing is there on all of the sweeps. Seems most likely to be a room issue.

Edit2: Never mind, he said that's the hum. Crazy hum!
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post #216 of 240 Old 06-22-2020, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Wow, crazy resonance at 60Hz...

Edit2: Never mind, he said that's the hum.

85 dB hum? Ouch. Definitely time to track that down and resolve it.
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post #217 of 240 Old 06-24-2020, 06:31 PM
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Yeah NEVER sweep tweeters at an SPL north of 85db, they tend to melt when you do that. It will also save your ears. You won't be the first and won't be the last.
The goal is to measure how-flat, not break a new SPL world-record. (As tempting as it may be.) hehe!

Even a 100db sweep for a subwoofer "should be" sufficient. Besides a UMIK clips at 130db and starts to self-distort at around 120db. There are only a handful of mics that can record louder and they all cost a fortune.

That 80db hum though... YIKES!

Most systems have to use the LPF that the AVR forces upon them, that isn't the case in my system.
I only use my processor as an Atmos decoder, all channels are left discrete full-range (DC to nyquist). That is then captured/digitized by my DSP rig, and re-mapped into any up/down-mix or direct-bypass routing that I desire, I then applies the digital XO's / EQ at the end of the signal chain just before sending to the amplifiers.

In my case I configured it to give me automatic tri-channel bass, in music-mode it's stereophonic bass, and in movie-mode the LFE track is also available. Both full bandwidth DC to nyquist, each subwoofer defines its own LPF/HPF separately.

I also created an all-channels Atmos headphone downmix.
I could create additional matrixed ghost heights if I wanted to as well.

The possibilities are endless. (and for the price I paid, it better be!) It's true separates. Sources->all-channel DACs->all-channel DSP->all-channel amps. Each are upgradable independently...
In many ways it's more powerful than even a Trinnov. (The only exception is really just their proprietary Atmos decoder.)

A 16core Ryzen should scale up to 128 channels without any trouble! Right now I'm comfortably processing 46 of the 72 channels that I have HW support for with a single Gen8 6-core i7, so...
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post #218 of 240 Old 06-25-2020, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Besides a UMIK clips at 130db and starts to self-distort at around 120db. There are only a handful of mics that can record louder and they all cost a fortune.
The isemcon mic I have wasn‘t super expensive, I think it was around 250 bucks. But when you consider the additional cost of an audio interface and an SPL calibrator, you‘re quickly at 400-500$.
The isemcon does 145db and @lukeamdman said something about it being useful for spl measurements into 150db and slightly beyond iirc. I have not used it at such a level yet.
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post #219 of 240 Old 06-25-2020, 10:26 AM
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The isemcon mic I have wasn‘t super expensive, I think it was around 250 bucks. But when you consider the additional cost of an audio interface and an SPL calibrator, you‘re quickly at 400-500$.
The isemcon does 145db and @lukeamdman said something about it being useful for spl measurements into 150db and slightly beyond iirc. I have not used it at such a level yet.
Maybe better to use an expensive microphone set up...... then your ears in this case..........................

I know he is a nay sayer.......... but I will be personally buying BTH a set of hearing aids in the future. Do you think we can get an ear to pop at those levels. ), and will the highs also be screaming at the same spl?, not!

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post #220 of 240 Old 06-25-2020, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
The isemcon mic I have wasn‘t super expensive, I think it was around 250 bucks. But when you consider the additional cost of an audio interface and an SPL calibrator, you‘re quickly at 400-500$.
The isemcon does 145db and @lukeamdman said something about it being useful for spl measurements into 150db and slightly beyond iirc. I have not used it at such a level yet.
From what I recall I think the isemcon can handle about 145-147db peak. To measure into the 150s you'll need to spend a lot more!
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post #221 of 240 Old 06-25-2020, 03:53 PM
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Do you think we can get an ear to pop at those levels.
According to the internet, the ear drum can rupture at about 35kPa, which converts to 185db. Quite the tall order.


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From what I recall I think the isemcon can handle about 145-147db peak. To measure into the 150s you'll need to spend a lot more!
Still 20-25db more headroom over the UMIK, which is quite a lot and enough more most uses. I can see how people might be wanting to measure sub performance above 120db when they watch movies at reference with subs 10 to 20db hot, but how useful are measurements above 145?

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post #222 of 240 Old 06-25-2020, 09:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
85 dB hum? Ouch. Definitely time to track that down and resolve it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Yeah NEVER sweep tweeters at an SPL north of 85db, they tend to melt when you do that. It will also save your ears. You won't be the first and won't be the last.
The goal is to measure how-flat, not break a new SPL world-record. (As tempting as it may be.) hehe!

Even a 100db sweep for a subwoofer "should be" sufficient. Besides a UMIK clips at 130db and starts to self-distort at around 120db. There are only a handful of mics that can record louder and they all cost a fortune.

That 80db hum though... YIKES!

Most systems have to use the LPF that the AVR forces upon them, that isn't the case in my system.
I only use my processor as an Atmos decoder, all channels are left discrete full-range (DC to nyquist). That is then captured/digitized by my DSP rig, and re-mapped into any up/down-mix or direct-bypass routing that I desire, I then applies the digital XO's / EQ at the end of the signal chain just before sending to the amplifiers.

In my case I configured it to give me automatic tri-channel bass, in music-mode it's stereophonic bass, and in movie-mode the LFE track is also available. Both full bandwidth DC to nyquist, each subwoofer defines its own LPF/HPF separately.

I also created an all-channels Atmos headphone downmix.
I could create additional matrixed ghost heights if I wanted to as well.

The possibilities are endless. (and for the price I paid, it better be!) It's true separates. Sources->all-channel DACs->all-channel DSP->all-channel amps. Each are upgradable independently...
In many ways it's more powerful than even a Trinnov. (The only exception is really just their proprietary Atmos decoder.)

A 16core Ryzen should scale up to 128 channels without any trouble! Right now I'm comfortably processing 46 of the 72 channels that I have HW support for with a single Gen8 6-core i7, so...
My next step is to track down this hum. It's loud...

Any advice where I should start?

The louder I turn the minidsp, the louder the hum.
The receiver doesn't have a ground.
I don't have any cable, so I completely unhooked that where it comes in to the house. My old subs also had a hum.

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post #223 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 05:25 AM
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4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
My next step is to track down this hum. It's loud...

Any advice where I should start?

The louder I turn the minidsp, the louder the hum.
The receiver doesn't have a ground.
I don't have any cable, so I completely unhooked that where it comes in to the house. My old subs also had a hum.

Here’s a start for your hum.

https://www.parts-express.com/jensen...CABEgIjTvD_BwE

And by saying your receiver doesn’t have a ground, are you referring to the power cable? Or a grounding lug on the back for phono ground? If you don’t have a place to run a ground wire (can just be a speaker wire) from a screw on your amp to the AVR, just use a screw on your AVR chassis.
After you ground your amp to your AVR, less of the ground loop will travel through your rca signal wire. (Or at least that’s the way it seems) And the Jensen will break that signal path for the loop.

Example of grounding amps to AVR:

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post #224 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
My next step is to track down this hum. It's loud...

Any advice where I should start?

The louder I turn the minidsp, the louder the hum.
The receiver doesn't have a ground.
I don't have any cable, so I completely unhooked that where it comes in to the house. My old subs also had a hum.
Did you replace that long coiled RCA cable yet?

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post #225 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Did you replace that long coiled RCA cable yet?

I bet that won’t make a bit of difference. Those of us who have these issues have something major going on. In my setup, without any coiled signal wire, no power cables near signal cables, the works,
As soon as I would connect the rca signal wire the hum would go nuts and be loud. I tried every cable managment protocol in the book. Nothing made a difference for me at all. Except the ideas I put in my last post.
I’d love it if the coiled cable was the issue for the OP, because it would cost nothing to fix, but I have my doubts.
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post #226 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 07:19 AM
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I bet that won’t make a bit of difference. Those of us who have these issues have something major going on. In my setup, without any coiled signal wire, no power cables near signal cables, the works,
As soon as I would connect the rca signal wire the hum would go nuts and be loud. I tried every cable managment protocol in the book. Nothing made a difference for me at all. Except the ideas I put in my last post.
I’d love it if the coiled cable was the issue for the OP, because it would cost nothing to fix, but I have my doubts.
Oh, I agree, I had to use a coax isolator and wire my amps to my signal ground as well to fix my issues, but then again, my hum was never anywhere near as bad as his. I already recommended the things shown in your post to him via text, but I also suggested he at least try swapping out that RCA cable to see if it makes things better as well. The fact that his hum is increasing along with the gain on the mDSP (and that it was 85dB!) suggests there is more going on than just the typical amp ground loop hum, which is why I wanted to try swapping the RCA cable as well. Especially since it's free and takes 2 minutes.
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Last edited by aron7awol; 06-26-2020 at 07:23 AM.
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post #227 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Oh, I agree, I had to use a coax isolator and wire my amps to my signal ground as well to fix my issues, but then again, my hum was never anywhere near as bad as his. I already recommended the things shown in your post to him via text, but I also suggested he at least try swapping out that RCA cable to see if it makes things better as well. The fact that his hum is increasing along with the gain on the mDSP suggests there is more going on than just the typical amp ground loop hum, which is why I wanted to try swapping the RCA cable as well.

Yeah, I spoke to the OP as well, behind the scenes. Lol
These issues are so annoying to fix, so I wish I could help. My test is always this,
Have the system on and humming. If you pull out the rca signal wire from the amp and the ground goes away, then the isolation transformer will help, if not fix the issue. Maybe he can try that.
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post #228 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I bet that won’t make a bit of difference. Those of us who have these issues have something major going on. In my setup, without any coiled signal wire, no power cables near signal cables, the works,
As soon as I would connect the rca signal wire the hum would go nuts and be loud. I tried every cable managment protocol in the book. Nothing made a difference for me at all. Except the ideas I put in my last post.
I’d love it if the coiled cable was the issue for the OP, because it would cost nothing to fix, but I have my doubts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Oh, I agree, I had to use a coax isolator and wire my amps to my signal ground as well to fix my issues, but then again, my hum was never anywhere near as bad as his. I already recommended the things shown in your post to him via text, but I also suggested he at least try swapping out that RCA cable to see if it makes things better as well. The fact that his hum is increasing along with the gain on the mDSP (and that it was 85dB!) suggests there is more going on than just the typical amp ground loop hum, which is why I wanted to try swapping the RCA cable as well. Especially since it's free and takes 2 minutes.
So guys I have the new RCA cable in the mail, and I will have it by this evening. Will be 3 ft. Much shorter haha.

A few years ago, someone recommended that I buy this in order to get rid of the hum. With the old subs, it wasn't nearly as loud. I just hooked it in, and the hum is basically gone! Before getting too excited, is there any reason I wouldn't want to use one of these?
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post #229 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So guys I have the new RCA cable in the mail, and I will have it by this evening. Will be 3 ft. Much shorter haha.

A few years ago, someone recommended that I buy this in order to get rid of the hum. With the old subs, it wasn't nearly as loud. I just hooked it in, and the hum is basically gone! Before getting too excited, is there any reason I wouldn't want to use one of these?

They can be saturated and cause distortion if driven with too much signal. That’s what I’ve been told at any rate. That’s why I recommend the Jensen one. It’s a pretty good quality. And I never had an issue with it.
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post #230 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
Here’s a start for your hum.

https://www.parts-express.com/jensen...CABEgIjTvD_BwE

And by saying your receiver doesn’t have a ground, are you referring to the power cable? Or a grounding lug on the back for phono ground? If you don’t have a place to run a ground wire (can just be a speaker wire) from a screw on your amp to the AVR, just use a screw on your AVR chassis.
After you ground your amp to your AVR, less of the ground loop will travel through your rca signal wire. (Or at least that’s the way it seems) And the Jensen will break that signal path for the loop.

Example of grounding amps to AVR:

I was referring to the power cable. It just has two prongs.

Very cool to see the wiring! All those subs must pound! The 21's and the Devastators... and the 18's lol.

This isolator is doing a great job. The hum is now basically the level of the projector fan.

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post #231 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
I was referring to the power cable. It just has two prongs.

Very cool to see the wiring! All those subs must pound! The 21's and the Devastators... and the 18's lol.

This isolator is doing a great job. The hum is now basically the level of the projector fan.

Sweet! If you ground your amps to the AVR, that should eliminate what ever hum remains.
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post #232 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 06:14 PM
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The hum is now basically the level of the projector fan.
That's just the thing, there shouldn't be any hum.

I would start by unplugging all of the source feeds to your AVR, leaving only speaker-wire and your LFE out cable connected.

So: no HDMI in or out, and no other cables for that matter. Not to the TV, not to the projector, nothing.

Then if the hum still exists, the problem is with the interconnects between the AVR, miniDSP and amps.

Generally this loop is caused by the RCA to XLR cable, they often connect the XLR shield to RCA negative, which then causes a loop between XLR negative and XLR shield. The shield only needs to be connected to one of the two sides when using unbalanced connections.

With real XLR the negative signal is actually a polarity invertered mirror image of the positive, it isn't 0volts.
The pos and neg never touch the chassis ground with real XLR, it's isolated. The shield is a dedicated connection not shared with the pos/neg signal wires. (or at least... that's how it SHOULD be! )

With that you shouldn't even need the hum isolator (preferably you wouldn't use it.)
Connecting the chassis together with a dedicated wire like what JK7.2 did is a last-resort, it doesn't fix the problem it just masks it by providing a lower-ohm connection for the naughty hum current to flow through instead of using the pos/neg wires as the return-path. It doesn't eliminate the source of the hum it just greatly reduces it. Plug another amp or miniDSP in and it will come right back.

You have to eliminate the hum at it's source, which means identify the source first-most. (It could be a single component such as a Cable box, or it could be as simple as a USB/HDMI cable or a interconnection between 2 or more components that have different ground-potentials or a leaky noise design.)

A loop can form whenever there is 2 or more conductors connecting 2 or more components, for a single HDMI cable that would be 19 parallel conductors! USB isn't much better. (RCA only has 2 conductors but that's all it takes to make a loop).
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post #233 of 240 Old 06-26-2020, 06:20 PM
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4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That's just the thing, there shouldn't be any hum.

I would start by unplugging all of the source feeds to your AVR, leaving only speaker-wire and your LFE out cable connected.

So: no HDMI in or out, and no other cables for that matter. Not to the TV, not to the projector, nothing.

Then if the hum still exists, the problem is with the interconnects between the AVR, miniDSP and amps.

Generally this loop is caused by the RCA to XLR cable, they often connect the XLR shield to RCA negative, which then causes a loop between XLR negative and XLR shield. The shield only needs to be connected to one of the two sides when using unbalanced connections.

With real XLR the negative signal is actually a polarity invertered mirror image of the positive, it isn't 0volts.
The pos and neg never touch the chassis ground with real XLR, it's isolated. The shield is a dedicated connection not shared with the pos/neg signal wires. (or at least... that's how it SHOULD be! )

With that you shouldn't even need the hum isolator (preferably you wouldn't use it.)
Connecting the chassis together with a dedicated wire like what JK7.2 did is a last-resort, it doesn't fix the problem it just masks it by providing a lower-ohm connection for the naughty hum current to flow through instead of using the pos/neg wires as the return-path. It doesn't eliminate the source of the hum it just greatly reduces it. Plug another amp or miniDSP in and it will come right back.

You have to eliminate the hum at it's source, which means identify the source first-most. (It could be a single component such as a Cable box, or it could be as simple as a USB/HDMI cable or a interconnection between 2 or more components that have different ground-potentials or a leaky noise design.)

A loop can form whenever there is 2 or more conductors connecting 2 or more components, for a single HDMI cable that would be 19 parallel conductors! USB isn't much better. (RCA only has 2 conductors but that's all it takes to make a loop).

My eventual ’fix’ was moving to fully balanced pre/pro and 10X10 dsp. Still to eliminate the hum, I lifted the ground in the cable. What do you think of that BTH?
Also, I tried making my own cables before the fully balanced system. I used every imaginable combo of this to that, rca side to xlr side, nothing stopped my loop issues. I’m still scratching my head to this day. All be it with no hum now, but I don’t understand why I couldn’t “fix” the issue as you say should be done.

And another thing:
All I just said was regarding my theater. My living room system with an AVR and Inuke (single) never needed a isolator or ground wire from chassis to chassis, and there is no hum whatsoever. Same house, same idiot hooking up the speakers, so who knows what the real issue is. I have a feeling, because of the years I’ve worked at it, that each persons setup is different. And that makes a solution difficult to find. Or I’m way off. I don’t know.

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post #234 of 240 Old 06-27-2020, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
My eventual ’fix’ was moving to fully balanced pre/pro and 10X10 dsp. Still to eliminate the hum, I lifted the ground in the cable. What do you think of that BTH?
Unfortunately you'd have to test each connection with an O-Scope or at least a Volt meter that can read into the 100's or 1000th's of a volt.
There is likely a ground-potential difference between 2 or more of your components.
The cause of this is likely a power supply or the motherboard in one or more of the devices leaking juice into the chassis, and the audio system using the chassis as reference-ground.

This is really only a problem for audio systems. In systems like home networks or business networks / the internet, this isn't a problem since no humans listen to Cat5 cables. It's a A/V specific issue unfortunately, and all too universal.

All I know is:
My sources are an HDMI BD player, a optical to Cat5 Cable box HDMI, a HTPC via USB/HDMI.
HDMI outputs are: 1 tv and 1 projector
All connected to a 7705.
The USB cable goes to my Motu rig, which goes to my DSP-PC via more Cat5/USB cables (3 routers), bi-directional back to the Motu rig.
BD player and 7705 also has cat5 to same routers.
The 7705 is also connected to the Motu rig via real XLR.
The Motu rig is connected to a dozen amplifiers (FP's and 1 iTech 8k).

No substantive noise in my system, not even if I put my ear up to the subwoofer, mid or tweeter.

No isolators or grounding used anywhere; and I have like a 1/4 mile of interconnects (not even joking!)
That's because the 25ft PE mic cables were cheaper than the 6ft ones! $2 vs $10 You can thank PE for that!










Probably one of the larger / more complicated wiring-jobs on AVS.
Cable management... What's that?
Just wait I haven't even added smart-house stuff yet!

Actually, cable management generally increases noise because the wires become closer together, often in strapped parallel (which is the worst thing you can do for noise rejection, stopping short of large coils.)

One day I probably will find the time/energy to shorten all of these XLR cables. But that's unlikely to be this year.

I'm slowly working towards upgrading from home-grade to business-grade network equipment, and then adding some smart-house power automation, at least the HT-lights and HT-equipment.

I'm actually surprised at how low the noise is with no effort put into it; I was expecting horrible noise levels.
My ISP is optical, and all of my HDMI cables are optical-hybrid, so that helps to a degree I suppose.
I also have a direct dedicated 6-awg grounding cable from that sub-panel to the mains-panel, and most of the wallsockets are dedicated breakers/romex. I also have multiple cascaded SurgeX's cleaning the grid-power. (Soon to be HT-dedicated solar-battery fed.)
That probably all helps to some unknown-degree...
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post #235 of 240 Old 06-28-2020, 03:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Hum is basically gone!

What a difference!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
They can be saturated and cause distortion if driven with too much signal. That’s what I’ve been told at any rate. That’s why I recommend the Jensen one. It’s a pretty good quality. And I never had an issue with it.
I'll keep testing... I hope no distortion... If it is, I'll look into the Jensen.

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post #237 of 240 Old 06-28-2020, 03:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Unfortunately you'd have to test each connection with an O-Scope or at least a Volt meter that can read into the 100's or 1000th's of a volt.
There is likely a ground-potential difference between 2 or more of your components.
The cause of this is likely a power supply or the motherboard in one or more of the devices leaking juice into the chassis, and the audio system using the chassis as reference-ground.

That probably all helps to some unknown-degree...
I wouldn't even know where to start haha.

Cool to see your separate electrical panel you use, and your DIY Rack!

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post #238 of 240 Old 06-28-2020, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's. They are good. But it's not enough...
Now what???? What should my next steps be?

I'm using a minidsp. Graph looks good. Like I said, they are good. But it's not it. Should 21's be my next move? Which ones? What should I do with the Ulitmax's?


Help! haha
Welcome to the rabbit hole!! Just starting to read this thread, so will see what answers have been given up to now first.

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post #239 of 240 Old 06-29-2020, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Welcome to the rabbit hole!! Just starting to read this thread, so will see what answers have been given up to now first.
The guys were so helpful. Honestly, awesome! The subs sound so much better than post #1 .

Even talked with Jk7.2 about his journey, and Aron7awol was able to remote tune the system.

Awesome community!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
This is really only a problem for audio systems. In systems like home networks or business networks / the internet, this isn't a problem since no humans listen to Cat5 cables. It's a A/V specific issue unfortunately, and all too universal.

Hey now, I know people who have made speaker cable by braiding the individual strands of Cat5 cables - does that count?
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