4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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4 - 18" Ported Ultimax's... It's not enough

So I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's. They are good. But it's not enough...
Now what???? What should my next steps be?

I'm using a minidsp. Graph looks good. Like I said, they are good. But it's not it. Should 21's be my next move? Which ones? What should I do with the Ulitmax's?


Help! haha
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post #2 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's. They are good. But it's not enough...

Now what???? What should my next steps be?



I'm using a minidsp. Graph looks good. Like I said, they are good. But it's not it. Should 21's be my next move? Which ones? What should I do with the Ulitmax's?





Help! haha
What are you looking for? More is not quantifiable.

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post #3 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:47 AM
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Also, have you measured your in room response? What is your amplifier situation?
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post #4 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:56 AM
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21's might be the answer if you want more output overall. Have you thought about adding a VBSS or two tuned at 31Hz or 40Hz? The Ultimax is a little light on mid-bass and the PA460 used in the VBSS excels at it. The two actually complement each other well. It would be a lot more inexpensive to add a couple of VBSS's to your Ultimax's than it would to go to 21's.
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post #5 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
What are you looking for? More is not quantifiable.

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More SPL.
I believe it plays low enough HZ wise.
My Digital sound level meter can't be right. I assume it doesn't pick up low freq? It says I'm only hitting 91DB.
The bass quality is okay. I think I was hoping for just a little more there too. I hear a little overhang on the bass.
I have bass traps and heavily treated theater (about 30%). Whole front wall (membrane), 20% of side and back wall.

Any thoughts would help.

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post #6 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
21's might be the answer if you want more output overall. Have you thought about adding a VBSS or two tuned at 31Hz or 40Hz? The Ultimax is a little light on mid-bass and the PA460 used in the VBSS excels at it. The two actually complement each other well. It would be a lot more inexpensive to add a couple of VBSS's to your Ultimax's than it would to go to 21's.
I haven't thought about a VBSS, however I have been eyeing up the new DIYSG 818 Titans which have an 18 in them. Would that be considered a VBSS?

Do you mean 2 18" Ultimax's at 31 to 40hz?

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post #7 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lmidgitd View Post
Also, have you measured your in room response? What is your amplifier situation?
I have them powered by two Behringer NX6000's.

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post #8 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lmidgitd View Post
Also, have you measured your in room response? What is your amplifier situation?
+1 on the amplifier situation. What are you using? Are the attenuation knobs turned all the way down? Are you able to drive your amps to clipping? 4 UMs will definitely get you past 90db. My 4 SI HT18s do more than that sealed.


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post #9 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
I haven't thought about a VBSS, however I have been eyeing up the new DIYSG 818 Titans which have an 18 in them. Would that be considered a VBSS?

Do you mean 2 18" Ultimax's at 31 to 40hz?

The VBSS uses a inexpensive Dayton Audio PA460 driver ($99). Most are tuned at 15Hz or 20Hz, but some people tune them at 31Hz or 40Hz for use as a mid bass sub, often to supplement a UM18

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Sounds like you need a calibrated UMIK and REW...
What amp are you using and what DSP settings?

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post #11 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
+1 on the amplifier situation. What are you using? Are the attenuation knobs turned all the way down? Are you able to drive your amps to clipping? 4 UMs will definitely get you past 90db. My 4 SI HT18s do more than that sealed.


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I have the knobs turned all the way up. When I'm pushing them, the clipping red light will come on. Only for a split second though.

I definitely figured I am past 90DB.

I am coming from 2 - SVS PB-16's. My system now is louder than them. But there was only two of them. I'm loving having four subs over two. I guess I was just hoping for more.

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More SPL.
I believe it plays low enough HZ wise.
My Digital sound level meter can't be right. I assume it doesn't pick up low freq?
A favorite option to check in room response is to buy a Umik-1 and the REW software. This will provide reliable results. I'd be willing to bet that perhaps there is a null, phase, or other setup issue. Did you try a sub crawl using just one subwoofer?
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post #13 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds like you need a calibrated UMIK and REW...
What amp are you using and what DSP settings?
I attached my REW picture to the first post. I use a UMIK. It looks pretty good, at least to me.

I am using two Behringer NX6000's.

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I attached my REW picture to the first post. I use a UMIK. It looks pretty good, at least to me.

I am using two Behringer NX6000's.
Good to hear that you have a Umik and REW. Did you go through the multiple sub integration guide? Also, many people like to run a house curve when watching movies because it adds extra low end support.
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The VBSS uses a inexpensive Dayton Audio PA460 driver ($99). Most are tuned at 15Hz or 20Hz, but some people tune them at 31Hz or 40Hz for use as a mid bass sub, often to supplement a UM18
This sounds interesting... What amp would you recommend to power them? How many could I put on one amp?

Just for reference, this is the graph I started with.
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post #16 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Good to hear that you have a Umik and REW. Did you go through the multiple sub integration guide? Also, many people like to run a house curve when watching movies because it adds extra low end support.
I haven't watched the whole video from home theater guru's for multiple sub integration. I have figured out that my receiver has the time delay down pat from what I can tell. My SPL drops if I add a delay to any channel.

House curve basically means its a slight decline from 20hz on up right?

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post #17 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:23 AM
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I haven't watched the whole video from home theater guru's for multiple sub integration. I have figured out that my receiver has the time delay down pat from what I can tell. My SPL drops if I add a delay to any channel.

House curve basically means its a slight decline from 20hz on up right?
Just as an exercise, I would disable all but one sub. EQ the single sub and see what the response is. Then you can power up another sub and see if you lose or gain SPL. If you lose SPL then your subs are fighting eachother. Repeat until all subs are powered. Although I would say to follow the multiple sub guide because he goes into much greater depth, and it will yield superior results.

Also yes, a house curve is just adding extra boost in the lower frequencies. Our ears perceive lower frequencies are lower in volume due to decreased sensitivity, so adding a boost helps even out our perceived response.
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post #18 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:25 AM
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This sounds interesting... What amp would you recommend to power them? How many could I put on one amp?

Just for reference, this is the graph I started with.

A pair can be run on the Behringer NX1000D or you can run up to eight on an NX3000D!!!!
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post #19 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Just as an exercise, I would disable all but one sub. EQ the single sub and see what the response is. Then you can power up another sub and see if you lose or gain SPL. If you lose SPL then your subs are fighting eachother. Repeat until all subs are powered. Although I would say to follow the multiple sub guide because he goes into much greater depth, and it will yield superior results.
Okay. I definitely have to watch the whole video then. Will do with measuring one sub and eqing. Thanks.

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post #20 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:29 AM
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Lots of good VBSS info here on the first page:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...gn-thread.html

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post #21 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:30 AM
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How big is your room? How far away is your MLP from each sub? In my 2200cft room, my MLP at 11ft, my twin sealed Rythmik 15" 370W don't compress till 105dB at 20Hz and 103dB at 10Hz.

I'd also takes measurements of each sub one by one, and compare each to the combined measurement. You can use the alignment tool in REW to then experiment with individual delays for each sub to see how the response should improve (and then set these in your MiniDSP to measure the actual combined response again). This can get mind-numbing with four subs, especially if trying to check across multiple seats, but you can export the original measurements from REW into MSO and have it do it all for you.
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A pair can be run on the Behringer NX1000D or you can run up to eight on an NX3000D!!!!
8! Geez. Just doing the quick math in my head, 100 for each sub, like 300 for the 3000. That's a huge bang for the buck. Am I thinking about that correctly?

After I do more for the setup, would you recommend I start out getting the 3000, and with building 4 of them? I know I am jumping the gun here, just getting a plan together though. It helps.
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post #23 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 10:36 AM - Thread Starter
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How big is your room? How far away is your MLP from each sub? In my 2200cft room, my MLP at 11ft, my twin sealed Rythmik 15" 370W don't compress till 105dB at 20Hz and 103dB at 10Hz.

I'd also takes measurements of each sub one by one, and compare each to the combined measurement. You can use the alignment tool in REW to then experiment with individual delays for each sub to see how the response should improve (and then set these in your MiniDSP to measure the actual combined response again). This can get mind-numbing with four subs, especially if trying to check across multiple seats, but you can export the original measurements from REW into MSO and have it do it all for you.
My room is 12' across, 20 ft deep, and 8 ft high. So 1,920 sq ft. I sit 11' from MLP.

This makes me think some subs are fighting each other...

Wow, does sound like a lot of work, but work I'm willing to put in!

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I haven't thought about a VBSS, however I have been eyeing up the new DIYSG 818 Titans which have an 18 in them. Would that be considered a VBSS?

Do you mean 2 18" Ultimax's at 31 to 40hz?
What 818 titans? Do you have a link?
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post #25 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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What 818 titans? Do you have a link?
They aren't out yet, but will be in a few weeks.

You can google them. DIYSG Titan 818. It is based on the Titan 615.

I am thinking that may serve as 3 vbss.

Or even the Titan 615's...

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post #26 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 11:41 AM
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8! Geez. Just doing the quick math in my head, 100 for each sub, like 300 for the 3000. That's a huge bang for the buck. Am I thinking about that correctly?

After I do more for the setup, would you recommend I start out getting the 3000, and with building 4 of them? I know I am jumping the gun here, just getting a plan together though. It helps.

VBSS is huge bang for the buck. They have a dual driver version that is 48"x28"x20" that can be built for $300 and you could run up to four of those dual driver versions with a NX3000D. If you have room for multiples, VBSS's with Dayton Audio PA460 drivers are hard to beat for the price.
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post #27 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 02:53 PM
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Your graphs look good to me. Are you calibrating the mic before running the sweeps? If so, I'd keep increasing the volume on the sweeps to atleast get an idea of what SPL it tells you....until it starts clipping. Assuming it's using the cal file, it's reporting over 95db compared to your SPL meter at 91.

I personally am not a fan of adding a bunch of VBSS/PA460 to bloat the midbass. I just like flat response. Some however do not.
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post #28 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
Your graphs look good to me. Are you calibrating the mic before running the sweeps? If so, I'd keep increasing the volume on the sweeps to atleast get an idea of what SPL it tells you....until it starts clipping. Assuming it's using the cal file, it's reporting over 95db compared to your SPL meter at 91.

I personally am not a fan of adding a bunch of VBSS/PA460 to bloat the midbass. I just like flat response. Some however do not.
I actually take it up to right before it starts to clip. Which actually its super low. I use the cal file that came with the mic.

So with that picture, that's right before clipping.

Assuming that the calibrated mic is right, and the SPL meter that I have is wrong, by the time I start clipping the amps, it is much louder than what I run REW. Like a guess of 25db-30db. A total guess.

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4-18" Ultimax's - 16 cu ft ported, 2 - Behringer NX6000's
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post #29 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMAX2016 View Post
So I just spent a lot of time building big ported boxes (16 cu ft 16hz) for Ultimax's. They are good. But it's not enough...
Now what???? What should my next steps be?

I'm using a minidsp. Graph looks good. Like I said, they are good. But it's not it. Should 21's be my next move? Which ones? What should I do with the Ulitmax's?


Help! haha
Is that graph at MLP?, and with or without eq?

Substantial boost being applied through notch filter(s) can certainly erode all headroom while producing poor overall output.
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post #30 of 240 Old 06-09-2020, 04:39 PM
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Are the before and after graph measured at the same volume lvl? I feel like I recognize the 2 small bumps around 30hz in both graphs. What does your EQ settings look like? You boosted a **** ton below 20hz?

Last edited by eXa; 06-09-2020 at 04:43 PM.
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