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post #1 of 17 Old 06-16-2020, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking to build new subs

Background:

My parents wanted to buy me a moving in gift for my first home that I'm closing on in about a month.
I suggested we build a sub together for my future dedicated home theater and my parents loved the idea. And then it occurred to me that I have absolutely no experience in this!



Theater Design:
8' ceiling, 16 ft wide 32 ft long (dd + gg, decoupled) but broken up by a machine room I will build in the back of the room to isolate any noise and to place the projector.



The Dumb Idea:
I was thinking of building two subwoofers to place in the machine room wall and then to build a snack bar over it so my wife stays happy


The Questions:
1. I assumed a front ported design would make the most sense for this (for movies), and that I could build a box within that back wall to place my subwoofer. Is this the best way to do it?

2. As a dumb first timer is there a specific guide I should be following? I have gone over the sticky here and I found it to be very helpful but I'm not sure if there is a more specific to my situation build that I could follow. I am looking for something that will really shake me in the acoustically treated room I am building.
3. Is it okay to only have subs in the back of the room? And are two enough to produce ground shaking bass assuming I have about 15' by 27' of space left in the room max?


feel free to tell me I'm in over my head haha
thank you in advance!
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-16-2020, 07:29 PM
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Anything can be done but one of the first things is you need to stat what your budget is for drivers and amp. One potential idea would be one of the Devastater versions. The back of the room may or may not be the best location but others will be able to help make that decision for you.

Randy
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post #3 of 17 Old 06-17-2020, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy_J View Post
Anything can be done but one of the first things is you need to stat what your budget is for drivers and amp. One potential idea would be one of the Devastater versions. The back of the room may or may not be the best location but others will be able to help make that decision for you.

Randy

Thank you Randy!
You mentioned the Devastator which led me down a rabbit hole of learning about MBM's and then eventually reading up on case studies about how different frequencies of sound at certain db will affect the human body. I learned a lot today because of you so thank you


My budget is whatever it needs to be to get the sound I desire.
That being said, after reading about MBM's today I realize my puny klipsch speakers might not produce enough mid bass at or above reference level to satisfy me.
I am considering switching my speakers out and into another room and then building every single speaker for the theater.
This would be a very long term project though and for now I want to focus on what I came here for - the subwoofers!
In the end I am looking for a recommendation of a low frequency subwoofer build that will shake me on my couch from around 10 ft away in a 16'x27'x8' room
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-17-2020, 12:30 PM
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Subs in a basement on a cement floor have a tough time shaking a couch 10 feet away (Ask me how I know). Nearfield is a good option, but that means placing them right behind the couch. Another good option is building the speakers where you have the space 10 ft away and then building a BOSS platform for your listening position. This will help you get the tactile response.

Even if you don't really have a budget, one should be specified. The DIY forum could spend 3 grand of your money and not blink an eye. If this is acceptable for you, it should at least be stated. The DIY forum tends to over-do things because "If something is worth doing, it's worth overdoing."

Another piece of useful information would be the amount of space in cubic feet available to you for boxes. The lower you want your sub to play, the larger the box you need to build. Once we narrow down the driver and box size, then we can help you start designing the box. The common solution is to just build a devastator. I have a couple and they are great. They are also large and can be expensive if you get the high end drivers at $600-750 each for a 21" driver. A quick peruse of the Devastator index will give you an idea of what is available for 15-21" drivers and their box sizes. We can also do a simple custom ported design but need to know the driver and box size for that. The Marty Sub is a good example of that. Additionally, you will need to pick up either an inuke with DSP or a MiniDSP because all ported sub boxes will need a High Pass Filter to protect the driver. And while you're at it, a measurement mic is a helpful tool too. The MiniDSP HD can be purchased at parts-express. For a mic, I recommend the UMIK-1 from Coss Spectrum labs. It is individually calibrated and worth the small premium.

You will have a blast learning and building your own driver. It a great rabbit hole that will lead to years of fun and experimentation.
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Last edited by Jedi940; 06-17-2020 at 12:35 PM.
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post #5 of 17 Old 06-17-2020, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Subs in a basement on a cement floor have a tough time shaking a couch 10 feet away (Ask me how I know). Nearfield is a good option, but that means placing them right behind the couch. Another good option is building the speakers where you have the space 10 ft away and then building a BOSS platform for your listening position. This will help you get the tactile response.

Even if you don't really have a budget, one should be specified. The DIY forum could spend 3 grand of your money and not blink an eye. If this is acceptable for you, it should at least be stated. The DIY forum tends to over-do things because "If something is worth doing, it's worth overdoing."

Another piece of useful information would be the amount of space in cubic feet available to you for boxes. The lower you want your sub to play, the larger the box you need to build. Once we narrow down the driver and box size, then we can help you start designing the box. The common solution is to just build a devastator. I have a couple and they are great. They are also large and can be expensive if you get the high end drivers at $600-750 each for a 21" driver. A quick peruse of the Devastator index will give you an idea of what is available for 15-21" drivers and their box sizes. We can also do a simple custom ported design but need to know the driver and box size for that. The Marty Sub is a good example of that. Additionally, you will need to pick up either an inuke with DSP or a MiniDSP because all ported sub boxes will need a High Pass Filter to protect the driver. And while you're at it, a measurement mic is a helpful tool too. The MiniDSP HD can be purchased at parts-express. For a mic, I recommend the UMIK-1 from Coss Spectrum labs. It is individually calibrated and worth the small premium.

You will have a blast learning and building your own driver. It a great rabbit hole that will lead to years of fun and experimentation.





Thank you for this!
I have seen you posting on this forum for years and I appreciate your response


I'm sorry I was not clear on the location of my theater - The house has two floors but no basement at all. This theater is on the first floor and there is no floor above it. The theater room was an extension added onto the original house 12 years ago.



A budget for the cost of the sub (not including tools or any external parts) would probably be like ~1k per sub. Lets call this a negotiable budget haha.


I'd rather not put the sub directly behind the couch because I am worried about how that will affect the room acoustics - but clearly I do not know best so I am open to doing this if you say it is the right move.


If the subs go in the rear wall I would build them as large as you suggest - there really is no limit here as long as my two rear speakers still fit in the wall. there will be a window for the projector to shine through as well but I doubt the subs will get in the way of this.



Thank you for your time
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post #6 of 17 Old 06-22-2020, 06:57 AM
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Exactly how much of your cash can we spend, and what are the specific dimensions of a box that can you handle?
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post #7 of 17 Old 06-22-2020, 09:51 AM
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If you build a capable sub you won‘t need extra MBMs as long as your mains do well to like 100hz, but since your subs will be placed in the rear, I‘d not cross it any higher than 70-80Hz.
My setup might be decent in your case: 1 Skhorn and a BOSS platform on a 2ch amp with a miniDsp 2x4HD. Total cost ~2000-2500.
If the Skhorn is too complicated I‘d do 2 Devastators with the 21ds115 or the LaVoce driver.
My BOSS riser elevates my couch by about 2“ at most.
You could place the sub(s) inside your storage room and make cutouts for the ports and horn mouths in the wall. Do you have a possibility to go infinite baffle with the rear wall? That might be interesting.
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-27-2020, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buggers View Post
Exactly how much of your cash can we spend, and what are the specific dimensions of a box that can you handle?



You are making me nervous with these questions but theres not really a limit to size as long as my rear speakers still fit in the wall and I can fit a snack bar and some folding tables/my av rack in the room (probably 16ft wide by 5-7 ft long)
And as for cash it really depends on the specific thing I'm buying. My budget can be flexible but the budget for the sub itself would probably be 1500 per if theres two separate enclosures or 2000 if theres only one enclosure or in the case of an infinite baffle 1500 per (I know this sounds strange but its a strange situation I'm in)



Quote:
Originally Posted by peniku8 View Post
If you build a capable sub you won‘t need extra MBMs as long as your mains do well to like 100hz, but since your subs will be placed in the rear, I‘d not cross it any higher than 70-80Hz.
My setup might be decent in your case: 1 Skhorn and a BOSS platform on a 2ch amp with a miniDsp 2x4HD. Total cost ~2000-2500.
If the Skhorn is too complicated I‘d do 2 Devastators with the 21ds115 or the LaVoce driver.
My BOSS riser elevates my couch by about 2“ at most.
You could place the sub(s) inside your storage room and make cutouts for the ports and horn mouths in the wall. Do you have a possibility to go infinite baffle with the rear wall? That might be interesting.

I like the sound of this but the skhorn seems complicated. Is it really do able for someone with no experience?
Also thank you for your response this is likely what I will go for
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-27-2020, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Anthonyt22 View Post
I like the sound of this but the skhorn seems complicated. Is it really do able for someone with no experience?
Also thank you for your response this is likely what I will go for

It's up to you to judge your carpentry skills. You can read through my build thread, I have most of the steps documented and I didn't have my CNC back then so all panels were made on my table saw. We also have a great community here and I'm sure you'll recieve lots of help whenever you run into an issue.

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post #10 of 17 Old 06-27-2020, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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It's up to you to judge your carpentry skills. You can read through my build thread, I have most of the steps documented and I didn't have my CNC back then so all panels were made on my table saw. We also have a great community here and I'm sure you'll recieve lots of help whenever you run into an issue.

Thank you
This is what I plan on doing as of now, I am going to read through your thread and do some research to start and then maybe make a new thread.
one last question - will an infinite baffle work if i have folding tables and an av rack stored in the room?
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post #11 of 17 Old 06-27-2020, 05:21 PM
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Thank you
This is what I plan on doing as of now, I am going to read through your thread and do some research to start and then maybe make a new thread.
one last question - will an infinite baffle work if i have folding tables and an av rack stored in the room?
It will work if both rooms are sealed from eachother. You will also need a very stiff wall to avoid panel flex (distortion), so you will have to install some reinforcements.
My knowledge about IB setups is fairly limited, but I think drivers with a low Fs are prefered for that applications. Check out Acoustic Elegance, their IB18HT is probably one of the best drivers that you can get for IB use. It is fairly inefficient, so you will need many of these to rival the midbass output of an SKHorn, but they will probably walk all over most other setups down low (into the single digits).
But again, I've never bothered about IB so I'm not the best person to ask about that. It's comparable to a sealed setup with less roll-off acoustically.
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post #12 of 17 Old 06-27-2020, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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It will work if both rooms are sealed from eachother. You will also need a very stiff wall to avoid panel flex (distortion), so you will have to install some reinforcements.
My knowledge about IB setups is fairly limited, but I think drivers with a low Fs are prefered for that applications. Check out Acoustic Elegance, their IB18HT is probably one of the best drivers that you can get for IB use. It is fairly inefficient, so you will need many of these to rival the midbass output of an SKHorn, but they will probably walk all over most other setups down low (into the single digits).
But again, I've never bothered about IB so I'm not the best person to ask about that. It's comparable to a sealed setup with less roll-off acoustically.

Lets say I go with the IB18HT and I keep my current setup:
Fronts:

klipsch 280fa:

32-25kHz +/- 3dBSENSITIVITY98dB @ 2.83V / 1m // POWER HANDLING (CONT/PEAK)150W / 600W // CROSSOVER FREQUENCY 1750Hz


Surrounds:
klipsch rb75:

42Hz-20kHz ± 3dBSENSITIVITY97dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter// CROSSOVER FREQUENCY 2000Hz // POWER HANDLING150w / 600 w peak


Center:

Klipsch rp450c:

58-25kHz +/- 3dBSENSITIVITY97dB @ 2.83V / 1m // POWER HANDLING (CONT/PEAK)150W/600W // CROSSOVER FREQUENCY500Hz/1500Hz


Will my current speakers be good enough for the big room and with such high crossovers wont I need something additional in my system?
From what I have read it sounds like I'm going to need something to fill the sound gap between ~100-1750 hz
Does this mean I need a whole new sound system?


Thank you in advance!
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post #13 of 17 Old 06-28-2020, 04:15 AM
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The crossover frequencies in the specs are the loudspeaker's internal crossovers, which you won't need to worry about.
The only problem I see is that there might be an output hole from maybe 60 to 120Hz. The IB setup will be able to handle that region just fine, but the fact that it's on the rear wall makes it somewhat unusable imo.

And I meant using between 4 to 8 of those drivers, not just one.

But that's just me. Imo either the mains don't have enough mid-bass capabilities or the AVR will give in first, which is why I'm crossing over to my sub at 80Hz. I would drop the crossover to 60Hz if the sub was placed anywhere else but under my screen/between the mains.
I would maybe add something like 4 sealed PA460 to the front for mid-bass and do a two way sub system. That's an easy cost-efficient build. Or maybe even a DBA with 4 of those and then have the rear IB system for below 50Hz.

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post #14 of 17 Old Yesterday, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The crossover frequencies in the specs are the loudspeaker's internal crossovers, which you won't need to worry about.
The only problem I see is that there might be an output hole from maybe 60 to 120Hz. The IB setup will be able to handle that region just fine, but the fact that it's on the rear wall makes it somewhat unusable imo.

And I meant using between 4 to 8 of those drivers, not just one.

But that's just me. Imo either the mains don't have enough mid-bass capabilities or the AVR will give in first, which is why I'm crossing over to my sub at 80Hz. I would drop the crossover to 60Hz if the sub was placed anywhere else but under my screen/between the mains.
I would maybe add something like 4 sealed PA460 to the front for mid-bass and do a two way sub system. That's an easy cost-efficient build. Or maybe even a DBA with 4 of those and then have the rear IB system for below 50Hz.

Okay, I just figured the rear wall would be the best way to do it, I have a clean slate and I can build this any way you recommend. If that means exceeding my budget I will be happy to make it work by compromising elsewhere.
if IB isnt the right move for me I'd be happy to place the subs anywhere in the room you recommend and if that means i need 8 sub drivers and 4 pa460's thats cool too


Thank you for your help
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post #15 of 17 Old Yesterday, 03:07 PM
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If you are looking at going with IB then you could consider the SI IB-24. They are only 799$ and that should have the displacement of 2 to 3 18" drivers each. Could be a lot of fun.
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post #16 of 17 Old Today, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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If you are looking at going with IB then you could consider the SI IB-24. They are only 799$ and that should have the displacement of 2 to 3 18" drivers each. Could be a lot of fun.

Its definitely a possibility, thank you
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Quote:
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If you are looking at going with IB then you could consider the SI IB-24. They are only 799$ and that should have the displacement of 2 to 3 18" drivers each. Could be a lot of fun.
I agree with this. 2 of these ported and the biggest amps you can get with the $ you have left. That's a big room. Heck, you could make the sub cabinets into a snack bar.

As far as the devastator fad that's current, I'm not on board. I can respect the project but, but their bandwidth isn't big enough for my applications...Just my opinion.
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