Custom 3-way Mains with TPL-200H and 18ds115 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Troels uses it in his large 3 way, don’t remember what his cross over was, I think 500hz?

I’m sure the 18DS will be a good large bottom end, I’d have to look up more about it but I don’t see why it couldn’t handle even a 300hz cross over.


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The 18ds has much higher inductance than the td or bms. Its still rated for 500hz response though.
I’m not sure exactly where I will cross it, 350hz was just a guess.

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post #32 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 04:30 PM
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Do know where the 18DS starts to break up?

I know it’s inductance is higher but it can’t be THAT much higher.


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post #33 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Do know where the 18DS starts to break up?

I know it’s inductance is higher but it can’t be THAT much higher.


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No idea. I’ve only used them as subs, so never measured above 200hz.

Here’s the datasheet:
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18ds115-4.pdf

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post #34 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
No idea. I’ve only used them as subs, so never measured above 200hz.

Here’s the datasheet:
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/produc.../18ds115-4.pdf

Chris

Looks like it would like 400 but 500 looks like it might take a bit of finagling.


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post #35 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I’ve only seen one project use them as well.
This one: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/bu...tpl-200h.1510/
Luckily (or sadly), I now own that pair of tpl-200h’s.

I was planning on tpl-150h’s, but got a decent deal on the 200’s.

What BMS are you suggesting? I didn’t look at them very close, as they seem to be very hard to get in the US. A quick look at the 12” shows nothing as good as the Beyma or AE.

Chris


I was about to buy either the Radian 951 or the BMS 4594 until Assistance Audio gave me a dope deal on 4590s. Hurd has had to endure me constantly waffling on them and trying to go back to my original plan.

I think you’ll really like your TPL200’s.


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post #36 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 05:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
I was about to buy either the Radian 951 or the BMS 4594 until Assistance Audio gave me a dope deal on 4590s. Hurd has had to endure me constantly waffling on them and trying to go back to my original plan.

I think you’ll really like your TPL200’s.


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I sure hope so. By far the most I’ve spent on drivers other than subwoofers.

I need to listen to some really good cd’s at some point. Maybe some JTR’s.

Until then, these seemed like my best endgame speaker option. Hopefully I can make them sound good.

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post #37 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I sure hope so. By far the most I’ve spent on drivers other than subwoofers.

I need to listen to some really good cd’s at some point. Maybe some JTR’s.

Until then, these seemed like my best endgame speaker option. Hopefully I can make them sound good.

Chris

The JTR’s use the 4594, some of the CD’s DIYSG uses sound pretty good too.

There’s a bunch out there that are great, the HF series from faital pro has great value/perf too.


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post #38 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
I sure hope so. By far the most I’ve spent on drivers other than subwoofers.

I need to listen to some really good cd’s at some point. Maybe some JTR’s.

Until then, these seemed like my best endgame speaker option. Hopefully I can make them sound good.

Chris
I am certainly pretty much not even interested in other tweeters at this point that's how good these TPL's sound to me. I've got 7 of them all around me.

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post #39 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
I am certainly pretty much not even interested in other tweeters at this point that's how good these TPL's sound to me. I've got 7 of them all around me.

Did you try out a tpl-75 for surround use before going with the tpl-150h’s everywhere?

Thinking for my own future here, lol.

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post #40 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:31 PM
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Did you try out a tpl-75 for surround use before going with the tpl-150h’s everywhere?

Thinking for my own future here, lol.

Chris
No, it wasn't out at the time, and regardless I dont think its got quite enough sensitivity and power handling.

I also wouldn't bother order the TPL-200H over the 150H. But if you got a good deal, then great.

Keen to see your measurements when you get it though.

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post #41 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
No, it wasn't out at the time, and regardless I dont think its got quite enough sensitivity and power handling.

I also wouldn't bother order the TPL-200H over the 150H. But if you got a good deal, then great.

Keen to see your measurements when you get it though.

Ahh, ok. You must expect more from surrounds than I do. Maybe I’ll get there as well. Its only money, right?

Agreed on the 200 over the 150. I was planning 150’s due to cost.
But I got the set of 3 200’s for less than the new cost of 150’s.

I’ve already got the 200’s. See pic in first post. It will be awhile before I get measurements though. Need to decide on mids for the next step.
I’d like to have a dci-n amp to use for measurements as well, though a different amp shouldn’t matter too much.

Then buy another pair of nsw’s and build the new mini dev’s.

This won’t be a next-week kinda build.

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post #42 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:51 PM
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Ahh, ok. You must expect more from surrounds than I do. Maybe I’ll get there as well. Its only money, right?

Agreed on the 200 over the 150. I was planning 150’s due to cost.
But I got the set of 3 200’s for less than the new cost of 150’s.

I’ve already got the 200’s. See pic in first post. It will be awhile before I get measurements though. Need to decide on mids for the next step.
I’d like to have a dci-n amp to use for measurements as well, though a different amp shouldn’t matter too much.

Then buy another pair of nsw’s and build the new mini dev’s.

This won’t be a next-week kinda build.

Chris
Yeah have you seen my surrounds? Click link in my sig.

I got the beymas at cost. If you are in the business it pays to get in touch with them.

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post #43 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Yeah have you seen my surrounds? Click link in my sig.

I got the beymas at cost. If you are in the business it pays to get in touch with them.

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Yeah, I’ve seen your surround build. That, plus just reading driver spec pages, is where I got the idea of using the faital 8’s.
I was just hoping to go cheaper on surrounds, if I build some at all.

I’m not in the business. Though my bank statements look like it for the last year.

Chris
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post #44 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, finally got time to model the woofer module. Port velocities are astronomical, so I’m not thrilled.

Outside dimensions 25.5” tall, 20” wide, 24” deep
Estimate 5cu net after driver, bracing and ports.

Model is designed using two or three 4” precision ports. 2 will fit easily as designed. 3 I will have to use the inside flares and glue them in place in sculpted cutouts. Obviously, I’d prefer to use two.

Models were performed in HornResp, which predicts much higher velocities than WinISD, and higher tunes.

Driver: 18ds115-4
Input power: 1250w
Crossover: 40hz butterworth hpf, 2nd and 4th order.

30hz tune:

2 ports, 10” net length, 650hz first port resonance.
2nd order: 46m/s. 4th order: 29m/s

3 ports, 17” net length, 400hz FPR
2nd order: 28 m/s. 4th order: 16m/s

35hz tune:

2 ports, 6.7” net length, 1000hz FPR
2nd order: 62 m/s. 4th order: 51m/s

3 ports, 11” net length, 600hz FPR
2nd order: 42 m/s. 4th order: 34 m/s

40hz tune:

2 ports, 4” net length, 1500hz FPR
2nd order: 81 m/s. 4th order: 81 m/s

3 ports, 7.5” net length, 900hz FPR
2nd order: 53 m/s. 4th order: 52 m/s

Here’s the pretty picture:

Not very pretty, honestly.

The most usable response appears to be the 35hz tune, 4th order HPF.
On two ports, the velocity is stupid.
On three ports, the first port resonance is getting very low.

Maybe I can bump the tune down a hz or two on two ports and see where I’m at.

I have no idea how much of the 1250w I will actually be sending at these, so port velocity may be much lower.

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post #45 of 73 Old 06-26-2020, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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And here is the 33hz tune option.

I dropped in the two other drivers discussed earlier for comparison.

2 ports.
18ds velocity: 42 m/s
TD18H+ velocity: 31 m/s
18n862 velocity: 33 m/s


The super strong motor on the 18ds makes it behave very differently. Gains significant extension by really leaning into the resonator, while losing output above tune, I assume to tight suspension.

The BMS and AE drivers act pretty similarly to one another. I’m sure those two would optimize into a very different enclosure. I just dropped them into this model without tweaks.

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post #46 of 73 Old 06-27-2020, 04:40 AM
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You have some measures and analysis for the TDH18+ here.
And the BMS in a 7.60 ft3, 25Hz tune here.
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post #47 of 73 Old 06-27-2020, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Custom 3-way Mains with TPL-200H and 18ds115

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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
You have some measures and analysis for the TDH18+ here.
And the BMS in a 7.60 ft3, 25Hz tune here.

Thanks for the links.

I knew Josh had tested the 18n862 sealed. I didn’t realize he had used them in a ported setup as well.

I didn’t know he had tested the td18h. Too bad he didn’t use that one in an enclosure too.

I guess I need to spend even more time reading db, lol.

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post #48 of 73 Old 06-27-2020, 03:57 PM
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Well, finally got time to model the woofer module. Port velocities are astronomical, so I’m not thrilled.

How about PR's.

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post #49 of 73 Old 06-27-2020, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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How about PR's.

Interesting thought, one that hadn’t occurred to me.

A single long-throw 18” should do it.

The issue is physical space though. Only the front face of the box is available, at 25.5”h x 20”w. Fitting 2 4” precision ports is tight, three will require cutting and fitting.

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post #50 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 11:44 AM - Thread Starter
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On the AE vs Beyma discussion, this post was just brought to my attention:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ml#post5082306

Doesn’t look like they’ve been active in awhile, but I’ll shoot then a message to clarify if they’re talking about the v2 beyma.
@Javs , looks like someone from your part of the world. Anyone you know?
(Yes, I understand AU is a big place, just assume there’s not too many people playing with this hardware)

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post #51 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
On the AE vs Beyma discussion, this post was just brought to my attention:

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ml#post5082306

Doesn’t look like they’ve been active in awhile, but I’ll shoot then a message to clarify if they’re talking about the v2 beyma.
@Javs , looks like someone from your part of the world. Anyone you know?
(Yes, I understand AU is a big place, just assume there’s not too many people playing with this hardware)

Chris
A lot of opinions in that thread not much hard data? Where are the measurements?

All I can tell you is I have built 4 completely different speakers now using the tpl, and 3 different mids, and the 12p80 versions for music (anything can sound good for movies) is the most transparent and crystal clear sounding speakers I've heard. Music is absolutely sublime.

Sure the ae could be 'slightly' better but man we have to be seriously splitting some hairs here. I don't agree with them saying the beaming is an issue because I don't use my mid that high it's crossed at 1200hz/48db and sounds amazing, no hint of breakup at that level. I've also done 1600 and 1800 at 24db.

Sounds like you need to get one of each and test yourself. As I said for the price difference which for me would be more than a couple hundred each driver I am pretty much not even interested in the ae in the slightest. That has to tell you something!

I don't agree with all the other 8/10 mids they suggested in that thread. None of the faitals come close to this beyma 12p80's speed.

Get one of each?

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post #52 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 03:14 PM
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@a77cj7 , while i understand your quest for the best driver, all things considered, i think that you are waiting your time

There is a consensus (supported by several threads on diy-audio, etc) that the AE TD12M is a slight better driver than the Beyma.
Nevertheless, and also reinforced by the fact that you will be using an Active crossover, i fully agree with Javs that "we have to be seriously splitting some hairs here".

But you have to consider your specific scenario, which is different than Javs (or someone in Europe, where it's way more expensive to get the AE) :
- You're in the USA, thus, its probably easier to get the AE, and in the remote possibility of a driver damage, it would be easily repaired,
- John from AE is a great guy, very supportive, and will be able to help you directly with your project, that type of help is invaluable (not to mention you would be supporting a local small company that has been great to the DIY community)
- Price difference is small ...

Finally, its important to consider that as you will be using a 18" driver, the TD10M is probably an even better match to the TPL-150H, which make it an even better alternative than the Beyma.

Some data to check:

- Detailed measures of several 12", including the TD12M, which was considered the best of them, measured by augerpro, available on drivervault,
- A thread about the build of Vapor Audio Arcus, which uses a TPL-150H and a AE TD10M, on parts-express.
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post #53 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Custom 3-way Mains with TPL-200H and 18ds115

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
A lot of opinions in that thread not much hard data? Where are the measurements?

All I can tell you is I have built 4 completely different speakers now using the tpl, and 3 different mids, and the 12p80 versions for music (anything can sound good for movies) is the most transparent and crystal clear sounding speakers I've heard. Music is absolutely sublime.

Sure the ae could be 'slightly' better but man we have to be seriously splitting some hairs here. I don't agree with them saying the beaming is an issue because I don't use my mid that high it's crossed at 1200hz/48db and sounds amazing, no hint of breakup at that level. I've also done 1600 and 1800 at 24db.

Sounds like you need to get one of each and test yourself. As I said for the price difference which for me would be more than a couple hundred each driver I am pretty much not even interested in the ae in the slightest. That has to tell you something!

I don't agree with all the other 8/10 mids they suggested in that thread. None of the faitals come close to this beyma 12p80's speed.

Get one of each?

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Yeah, the entire thread is pretty messy. I was mostly interested in the single post from someone claiming to have tried both with a tpl. I sent him a pm asking if that was the v2 beyma.

One of each is an option, but I worry about how hard it will be to resell a single mid.

Chris
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post #54 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
@a77cj7 , while i understand your quest for the best driver, all things considered, i think that you are waiting your time

There is a consensus (supported by several threads on diy-audio, etc) that the AE TD12M is a slight better driver than the Beyma.
Nevertheless, and also reinforced by the fact that you will be using an Active crossover, i fully agree with Javs that "we have to be seriously splitting some hairs here".

But you have to consider your specific scenario, which is different than Javs (or someone in Europe, where it's way more expensive to get the AE) :
- You're in the USA, thus, its probably easier to get the AE, and in the remote possibility of a driver damage, it would be easily repaired,
- John from AE is a great guy, very supportive, and will be able to help you directly with your project, that type of help is invaluable (not to mention you would be supporting a local small company that has been great to the DIY community)
- Price difference is small ...

Finally, its important to consider that as you will be using a 18" driver, the TD10M is probably an even better match to the TPL-150H, which make it an even better alternative than the Beyma.

Some data to check:

- Detailed measures of several 12", including the TD12M, which was considered the best of them, measured by augerpro, available on drivervault,
- A thread about the build of Vapor Audio Arcus, which uses a TPL-150H and a AE TD10M, on parts-express.

Yeah. Considering how much I’m spending on these builds, I’m just kinda stuck on trying to get the very best. Between these two, cost is super similar too. The AE looks better, because that’s important, lol.

I gave up on the td12m. That was more a hold-over from when I was considering a two-way. Probably would have gone with the x instead of m in that case though, for extension.

As of now I’m completely decided on either the TD10m or the 12p80ndv2. Its just that last decision I’m still struggling with.

Ironically, it may be easier for me to get the beyma’s. I believe usspeaker has them in stock. Whereas the td’s are custom built, with a significant lead time from what i’ve heard.

You’re correct on the supporting US small business though, especially in the current situation. That alone should be a significant consideration.

The only reason I’m not considering the td6’s is they cost over double what the faital mids do. Hopefully the center will be temporary anyway. Temporary has a bad habit of stretching out though.

Chris
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post #55 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 04:01 PM
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Just get the TD10M if they are the same price (for me they are hundreds more! x3 is a lot)

The only thing is you are giving up 7db of efficiency with the AE vs the Beyma, but if its Active it doesnt matter.

Here is the thing. The current Beyma 12p80v2 is not the same as what I have in my hands. The current one changed the surround pleats again and there is now dimple rings around the diaphragm vs the earlier v2 which I have. I dont know why they did that, and looking at the updates freq response, it looks a little different.

Mine, triple roll surround, flat cone.



New v2 (same name) double surround, lines in cone



the body is the same they just took pics from different angles.

Makes me kinda glad I actually have two recone kits for the proper v2 in storage for a rainy day.

There, did I just decide for you?

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post #56 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 04:07 PM
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Whoa hang on man.

HOOOLD UP.

These are NOT the same drivers in any way. Completely different the T/S specs are way better on the old V2. Motor strength lower, MMS is HEAPS more now, fs different raised qts...

ABORT.

Old V2 (Mine)



https://www.dropbox.com/s/a0j40zu3ay...2-Old.pdf?dl=0

New V2



https://www.dropbox.com/s/5cb3tixbcg...0NdV2.pdf?dl=0

Damn.
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post #57 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Custom 3-way Mains with TPL-200H and 18ds115

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Whoa hang on man.

HOOOLD UP.

These are NOT the same drivers in any way. Completely different the T/S specs are way better on the old V2. Motor strength lower, MMS is HEAPS more now, fs different raised qts...

ABORT.

Old V2 (Mine)



https://www.dropbox.com/s/a0j40zu3ay...2-Old.pdf?dl=0

New V2



https://www.dropbox.com/s/5cb3tixbcg...0NdV2.pdf?dl=0

Damn.

Wow, yeah, that is a significant change. I was thinking the cone looked deeper in your previous pics, though the perspective makes it very hard to tell. Definitely heavier though.

Considering you were the one really championing the beyma, I guess I’ll go with the td10m.

Surprised it didn’t get a v3 moniker for that large of a change, not exactly a drop in replacement.

EDIT, mass went up, but fs went up too...
Ahh, other specs changed, they messed with motor and suspension too.

Chris
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post #58 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 04:33 PM
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A thread on Diy-Audio with a similar project, it even has a comparison between the BMS and the AE 18": New 3-way, 18 inch bass, Beyma TPL150 AMT Horn
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post #59 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
A thread on Diy-Audio with a similar project, it even has a comparison between the BMS and the AE 18": New 3-way, 18 inch bass, Beyma TPL150 AMT Horn

Thanks for another good link. I didn’t realize there were so many three-way builds with the tpl’s .

After modeling it, the td18 is an obvious choice. Cheaper and easier to get in the US than the BMS.

Unless someone buys my 18ds115’s, I’ll be sticking with those though.

Chris
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post #60 of 73 Old 06-28-2020, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Awesome setup, thanks for sharing. How big is the screen?

Yeah, I use a minidsp 4x10 for my sub channel. Works great for that, but has quirks and I didn’t feel they were appropriate for high-sensitivity mains. Plus, one channel short, as are most dsp’s.

I’m hoping to use crown dci-n amps with internal dsp. I figure that if its good enough for the JBL m2, it should be good enough for me.
Otherwise, I’ll ebay a ashly 24.24m. Reportedly completely silent on high efficiency cd’s, and can have plenty of channels with right cards installed.

Why the dual mids?

Any issue with the woofer being forward of the mid and tweet? I hope not, as that is my intention as well.

What volume on tpl rear chamber? Lined with denim? Foam still in place on tpl?
110" wide 2.40 scope screen with power masking and V6 DreamScreen fabric. JVC RS3000 projector with DCR lens and Lumagen.

Dual TD12M's is a better match sensitivity wise.

The acoustic center of the TD12M and TPL-150H is nearly the same. The TD18H+ is in a separate box, so it can be physically moved forward to match acoustic centers. Or you can just input driver delay.

If I remember correctly the chamber for the TPL is 8.5" x 8.5" x 11" and yes, I lined the chamber and stuffed it with polyfill.
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