HT-12 vs Fusion-12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 06-29-2020, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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HT-12 vs Fusion-12

Sorry if this was asked before. I searched, but didn't see it. Has anyone compared these speakers?

I currently have fusion 12's as my main L/R.

Are the HT's better speakers? I want to order some, but not sure if they should be my new mains or become my new rears.

Also considered just getting some ht-10 for the rear. It's not like I'm unhappy with the fusion 12's or anything. Idk. Thoughts?
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post #2 of 22 Old 06-29-2020, 07:11 PM
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If you have the cash for the HTM-12s, I would say this is a slam dunk in their favor. But that wasn't your question... Given the financial constraints inherent in your question, I would keep the Fusion-12s up front and buy HT-10s for the rears.

You only mention L/R. What are your plans for a center channel?

Mike
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post #3 of 22 Old 06-29-2020, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Cash isn't too much of a concern. But if there's no tangible benefit, then I'd just keep the fusions and get ht10 rear.

Are HT-12 noticeably better than fusion-12, or is it a wash?

I already have a Fusion-8 MTM center. Also fusion-8 MT rears, which are going to bump out my Dayton rs621 to become my new side surrounds.

Dayton's will become new livingroom speakers. It's the circle of life.

Edit: @mhutchins - sorry, just realized you were mentioning the htM-12 as being a slam dunk. I think the regular HT-12 is probably my limit.
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2x ported PA460, 2x mini-marty UXL-18's
Fusion-8 rear, center
Fusion-12 mains

Last edited by Rebel975; 06-29-2020 at 08:20 PM.
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post #4 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel975 View Post
Cash isn't too much of a concern. But if there's no tangible benefit, then I'd just keep the fusions and get ht10 rear.

Are HT-12 noticeably better than fusion-12, or is it a wash?

I already have a Fusion-8 MTM center. Also fusion-8 MT rears, which are going to bump out my Dayton rs621 to become my new side surrounds.

Dayton's will become new livingroom speakers. It's the circle of life.

Edit: @mhutchins - sorry, just realized you were mentioning the htM-12 as being a slam dunk. I think the regular HT-12 is probably my limit.
not sure if this is even relevant..but ive heard Fusion 10s vs HTM 10s... i thought the fusions sounded better for HT and the HTMs better for music...
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post #5 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. Really only looking at the HT-10 or HT-12 at this point though. Probably just get the HT-12 when they are in stock. A pair of the HT-12's is only $73 more than the HT-10. Then I can compare them to the Fusions myself and decide where to put them in the setup.


I wish they weren't called HT and HTM. I keep mixing up which are which.

2x ported PA460, 2x mini-marty UXL-18's
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Fusion-12 mains
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post #6 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 07:12 AM
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What woofer and CD in the fusion 12?

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post #7 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 07:21 AM
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I own the Fusion-8s and HTM-10s (different rooms) so not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, but close. I've compared both in the same placement and find the Fusion-8s to be a bit more laid back vs. the HTM-10s, and the midbass a bit punchier on the HTM-10s. I did not engage the HF pad on the HTM-10s when I built them.

YMMV of course...

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Speaker builds: DIYSG HTM-10 build | DIYSG Volt-6 build | DIYSG Fusion-8 builds
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post #8 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 09:24 AM
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If you compare the F12 vs the HT12 using full range content the F12 will likely prevail. The F12 was one of the first diysg kits and one of the most popular. It was more full range than almost all of the diysg kits. The F12 is also more sensitive if I recall correctly. I doubt the HT12 is going to outperform the F12. The Tempest really put diysg on the map.
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post #9 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 10:03 AM
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Anybody know what driver was used in both?

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post #10 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
If you have the cash for the HTM-12s, I would say this is a slam dunk in their favor.
Why would you say the HTM-12 is a slam dunk over Fusion 12?
AFAIK, the HTM-12 was created to be able to sell a cheaper version of the Fusion 12 that came as close to the original sound and capabilities as possible.
I'm sure a couple things about it were even an improvement.
But I doubt that as a whole, the HTM-12 would really be considered "the better speaker".

Or at the very least, the difference would be subjective.
"Slam Dunk" sounds a bit sensational to me.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #11 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 10:23 AM
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a few things -

any issues with the REQ from your AVR? which one?
Do you use REW and any outboard eq like some flavor of a minidsp, thinking subs here- got any?
got a map of your layout, dimensions, stuff like that . . where you sit, separation, toe-in, when mentioning just L/R ,
also, your usage of the system music vs movies

.02
If the HTM 12's can be had, do it.
My F15's just pour out a wondrous clear detailed HUGE sound field , that 15" SEOS horn , some very beautiful work . .
fussing with dialing things in- priceless

from talking to @mtg90 a while back,
the HTM12's ( and maybe the HT12's)
using the same front baffle but making the cab 18" deep can lower the tuning
and maybe with some other EQ get to be close to full range into mid/ upper 40's.

setting F15's and F12's to "small" to enable BM seems like a crime . . .

as for the drivers, CDS's - way better minds with the right stuff got it right, put their names on it and own it .

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L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
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post #12 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
If you compare the F12 vs the HT12 using full range content the F12 will likely prevail.
Make any difference if I'm using subs? Got 4x18's in my room, so mains are crossed at 100hz.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Anybody know what driver was used in both?
HT-12:
Denovo 12" woofer made by Eminence: $75
Celestion CDX1-1445: $45
15" waveguide
(prices listed on the DIYSG page)

Fusion-12:
Delta Pro-12A: $140
Denovo DNA-360: $80
12" waveguide
(prices based on Google)



Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
any issues with the REQ from your AVR? which one?
Do you use REW and any outboard eq like some flavor of a minidsp, thinking subs here- got any?
got a map of your layout, dimensions, stuff like that . . where you sit, separation, toe-in, when mentioning just L/R ,
also, your usage of the system music vs movies

No issues using built in REQ. Pioneer VSX-LX103. I can get room dimensions and stuff after work. Usage is 97% video games, 2.5% movies, 0.5% music.


Currently:

Fusion-12 L/R
Fusion-8 MTM center
Fusion-8 rears
Dayton RS621 sides.
(2x) ported Dayton PA460 50-100hz
(2x) UXL-18 minimarty 18-80hz
Minidsp and umik-1 to EQ the subs.

I agree it's a bit of a waste to set a speaker with a 12" woofer to small, but- I've got plenty of upper base. The PA460's can make my ears bleed if I want.

2x ported PA460, 2x mini-marty UXL-18's
Fusion-8 rear, center
Fusion-12 mains

Last edited by Rebel975; 06-30-2020 at 11:17 AM.
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post #13 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 11:19 AM
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I only mentioned the full range capability because alot of people will compare two speakers full range even though they’ll never actually use them that way. The F12 has lower extension so it would likely sound better in that case. Crossed at 100hz I doubt there will be any significant difference between the two. The F12 may be slightly louder while the HT12 has a larger WG, but I’m not sure if either really needs the 15” WG. The 12” WG is probably sufficient for the XO in both kits. The H12 CD might be a little smoother than the DNA, but the DNA is no slouch and personal preference would probably pick the winner. The HT12 I believe is smaller, if that matters to you.
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post #14 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 11:37 AM
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Using 12 & 15 inch woofers in "small" speakers has a major sensitivity benefit. If you want high 90s sensitivity in an 8 ohm speaker you either need a 12 or 15, or multiple smaller woofers. There are some 10s that can pull it off, but you usually need a larger box to get down to an 80hz xo. The Fusion 10 was a rather unique kit with very high sensitivity using a 10. If you use an active setup none of this matters. But off an AVR, that sensitivity makes a real difference. That last 3db can be the difference between reaching reference level at your MLP or not. I personally will take sensitivity over native response. If I'm going to use EQ anyways, then the native response is less of a concern and I want all the headroom I can get for EQ.

But don't get me wrong, I like to change stuff just as much as the next guy, for no other reason than to just play around with this stuff. If your hobby is building speakers, it kind of sucks when you're all done building. So if you want to change something then go for it.
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post #15 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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So what you're saying is I should really get 1099/1299's.

jk
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2x ported PA460, 2x mini-marty UXL-18's
Fusion-8 rear, center
Fusion-12 mains
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post #16 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 02:08 PM
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Rebel, just FYI... the first and third build links in your sig are dead links.

"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #17 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel975 View Post
Sorry if this was asked before. I searched, but didn't see it. Has anyone compared these speakers?

I currently have fusion 12's as my main L/R.

Are the HT's better speakers? I want to order some, but not sure if they should be my new mains or become my new rears.

Also considered just getting some ht-10 for the rear. It's not like I'm unhappy with the fusion 12's or anything. Idk. Thoughts?
The HT-12 is not really a better speaker than the Fusion-12.

The new HTM-12 would be considered better than the Fusion-12. The compression drivers are similar but the HTM woofer is a better woofer and the larger SEOS-15 waveguide would be considered an upgrade as well.

Fusion-12 to HT-12 would be a lateral move.
Fusion-12 to HTM-12 would be an upgrade.
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post #18 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 02:39 PM
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You guys really think the Celestion CD is better than the B&C DE-250? Or is it for cost savings? I remember the BC being one of the best 1 inch CDs and the DNA 360 was supposed to replicate it.

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post #19 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
got any?
got a map of your layout, dimensions, stuff like that . .
Room is 16'x17'. Primary listening spot (my desk for gaming) is 6' from the main L/R, 9.5' from the rears. 8' from sides.

Secondary listening position is a couch towards the back of the room. Rarely gets used. That one is 11' from L/R, 4' from rears, 7.5' from sides.

Attached a MSPaint drawing. It's not exactly to scale, but you get the idea. I tried really hard on this, btw.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Fusion-12 to HT-12 would be a lateral move.
Fusion-12 to HTM-12 would be an upgrade.

Thanks.
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2x ported PA460, 2x mini-marty UXL-18's
Fusion-8 rear, center
Fusion-12 mains
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post #20 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 03:33 PM
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a related thing, just an investigative suggestion

how much freedom you wrt to moving / relocating stuff, IDK

given that the room is almost square
and the MLP is so near the fronts

you may wish to tale a look at this thread, an inquiry wrt to room mode calculation and what does it really mean
and where you may find improvements
the displayed resulting calculation could be a bit daunting

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...t-results.html

the actual link supplied by @sdurani there
and if you read his response post to the OP
de-coding what it means,
I've seen his work , in this regard many times, and
it's the right stuff

my vote is for the HTM12's if they have to stay co-located with the subs.

HTH

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #21 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah, can't move the speakers at all. I am familiar with room modes for sure. I've seen them on my REW sweeps. Room is heavily treated, but it's not enough. At least not in the bass region. Eventually I can add more subs to try and smooth it out, but I digress.

I guess HTM aren't that much more than HT.

Do I sit too close for 1099's?

Edit: Attached pics of some of my room treatments. Custom made panels all over the ceiling and walls. Also have floor to ceiling bass traps in the back, and one that goes the entire distance between the martysubs.
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post #22 of 22 Old 06-30-2020, 04:17 PM
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That panel over the CC-
awesome
who did that?

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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