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post #1 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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It's been a few years since I looked at sub drivers and am being a bit lazy.
TCSounds still looks like they've got some impressive stuff.

For me, I have a high end 2-channel music system. Room size: 35x15x9-1/2. This will be for music only. No HT. The mains will be crossed at 80Hz or so.

Can anything beat the TC3k in a 3.6 cu.ft. sealed box?

How's the SDX15?

Will use Crown or QSC amp with either Bryston or Marchand crossover.

Regards,
Jim
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post #2 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 07:24 PM
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Check out the LMS5400
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post #3 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 07:31 PM
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They claimed that the lms4000 was their best sounding driver, but they dont make them anymore. Also many say that the tc2k is a better sounding driver than the 3000.
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post #4 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jxo View Post

It's been a few years since I looked at sub drivers and am being a bit lazy.
TCSounds still looks like they've got some impressive stuff.

For me, I have a high end 2-channel music system. Room size: 35x15x9-1/2. This will be for music only. No HT. The mains will be crossed at 80Hz or so.

Can anything beat the TC3k in a 3.6 cu.ft. sealed box?

How's the SDX15?

Will use Crown or QSC amp with either Bryston or Marchand crossover.

don't you know that NOTHING beats the tc3k in 3.6 sealed??? ...just kidding...it IS a formidable driver though, especially in multiple sealed configurations...i'll leave it at that.

"Frequency response is NOT efficiency response."

 

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post #5 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 08:23 PM
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post #6 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 08:49 PM
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Supposedly the TC2k is the 'sound quality' driver, while the TC3K is more of an excursion driver. My guess is that either of those would sound excellent in a sealed enclosure of the appropriate size.

One or a pair of the Rythmik kits deserves consideration as well IMO.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/
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post #7 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deneb View Post

Supposedly the TC2k is the 'sound quality' driver, while the TC3K is more of an excursion driver. My guess is that either of those would sound excellent in a sealed enclosure of the appropriate size.

One or a pair of the Rythmik kits deserves consideration as well IMO.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/

The Rythmiks are good for the price,but to put them on par with a tc3k or a 5400 is kind of silly. I think the OP is looking for an extreme driver.
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post #8 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

The Rythmiks are good for the price,but to put them on par with a tc3k or a 5400 is kind of silly. I think the OP is looking for an extreme driver.

if it's for a 2.1 setup, the rhythmik is probably the best option... how loud are you going to go? the 15" rythmik is i think over 100db flat from 80 down. I am kinda on the same fence as this guy.. lots of audiophilic listening, minor ht duty. I think the 2k and 3k are great drivers but are bound to have slightly lower sq than a servo controlled tc 1k (which is pretty much what a rythmik is)
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post #9 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zkaudio View Post

if it's for a 2.1 setup, the rhythmik is probably the best option... how loud are you going to go? the 15" rythmik is i think over 100db flat from 80 down. I am kinda on the same fence as this guy.. lots of audiophilic listening, minor ht duty. I think the 2k and 3k are great drivers but are bound to have slightly lower sq than a servo controlled tc 1k (which is pretty much what a rythmik is)

I don't know man, I have a Rythmik and agree it's a great sub. But to say it's the best option for a sub... Maybe if the OP gave a size restriction for a very small sub then the Rythmik would win.
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post #10 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 10:26 PM
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TC-3000 an SPL driver.... Watch out it is also a SQ driver in the proper hands and...setup.

I am going to order dual TC-1000 and TC-2000 this monday. I want to hear it all...TC-5200 and LMS comming later when they have stock.

Anything TC Sounds/Sound Splinter can sound darn good when installed in a proper cabinet and with the correct filters applied.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #11 of 109 Old 06-08-2007, 11:09 PM
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I still stick with a t-line for music only subs. I've only had the pleasure of listening to one t-line, but I loved it! Great stuff for music, with a great natural and clean sound.
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post #12 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 12:02 AM
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I'd definitely look at the SDX15 and the TC-2000
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post #13 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

I don't know man, I have a Rythmik and agree it's a great sub. But to say it's the best option for a sub... Maybe if the OP gave a size restriction for a very small sub then the Rythmik would win.

Great feedback. thanks much. Cabinet size is 3.6 cu.ft. max. I would NOT listen at extreme SPLs and don' need ultra low extension. 100% music-- of all kinds, orchestral, organ, etc... As a previous poster indicated, this has an audiophile slant not HT (no bombs will be going off).

What are people's views on simple sealed vs. PRs? Nick McKinney (Lambda Acoustics) liked the PRs and helped me with an older design. I just never got around to building it-- now's the time.

I need to locate electronics away from the sub-- so crossover, amp, bass management are going in the equipment rack and the sub will be passive. Guess this may rule the servos (I assume you need coordinated electronics in the sub).

thanks,

Jim

Regards,
Jim
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post #14 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 06:58 AM
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If you're listening to organ music you are going to need good extension down to ~16hz
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post #15 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poormanq45 View Post

If you're listening to organ music you are going to need good extension down to ~16hz

Organ music will once in a blue moon; would not want to make compromises elsewhere just to accommodate an occasional listen in the 15-16Hz area. performance, quality and integration in the 20-80Hz region would seem to be more important.

Regards,
Jim
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post #16 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 10:27 AM
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With a properly designed sub tuning down to 15hz will not cause any compromises near the crossover frequency.

It's all a matter of the Le(inductance) of the driver used
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post #17 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 12:06 PM
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Okay so the box size is restricted to 3.6cuft

Making it bold so anybody who wanders in the thread notices.
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post #18 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackyflipside View Post

Okay so the box size is restricted to 3.6cuft

Making it bold so anybody who wanders in the thread notices.

Feels like there have been a few polite debates on this topic already.

OK with a 3.6 cu.ft. limit:
1. lms 5400 in a simple sealed box with decent crossover (bryston, marchand, velodyne) and amp crown or qsc

vs.

2. Rythmik 15" servo ???

I looked at the Rythmik site and it sure talks the right game from a musical performance perspective. I know squat about servos. can the servo be adapted for use for higher end tc sounds drivers?

the 15" Aura Sound looks interesting too..

Regards,
Jim
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post #19 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 08:18 PM
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I think the key to a design is an accurate use of drivers and amplifiers. The idea is to out sub the mains.

What are the mains ? What do you power them with.How far from the mains do you sit ? Have you measured what level you really listen at ? With a 20hz low limit your choices are vast. Lets get some of these questions answered so we don't overkill this design.

Cheers KG

In a thread i started, another point of integration is what driver takes the signal after the subwoofer ? What you want to avoid is handing over a signal @ 80hz to a 6.5" driver . There is no way that type of driver can relay the same character or intentsity.Some food for thought

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post #20 of 109 Old 06-09-2007, 09:12 PM
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I may be alone on this, but I find that horn loaded enclosures sound good for music. Trying to have others pick out an "end all" SQL woofer is a losing battle due to personal preferences in music. Some people perfer sealed, others ported and I am voting for horn loaded. Each has a woofer better suited for that application, so knowing what alignment you want would help too.

Purely "bench racing" here since I've not listened to these in person, but I would think a sealed Dayton RS 15" or a Rythmic 15" would be more than sufficiant to deliver very clean sounding bass for music. Maybe two for big rooms. No need to spend tons on an LMS5400

Quote:
Originally Posted by jxo View Post

How's the SDX15?.

Since they just started shipping a week or so ago, no ones had one long enough to get any testing done on it. Theoretically it should be a very good driver and thus the reason why I will be using two in my HT system.

YID DIY
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post #21 of 109 Old 06-10-2007, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

xxxxxx can sound darn good when installed in a proper cabinet and with the correct filters applied.

EAR,

I know you have a lot of expericence. But I think you also would agree that above quote has too often become the escape goat for driver manufacturers (explain why the driver does not sound good). We have never done that. And to be honest, anyone should be surprised why our kits are so "consistent" in many different rooms, cabinets, and systems. Of course, we are selling a solution, not a piece in a solution. That is main difference.

Brian
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post #22 of 109 Old 06-10-2007, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

I think the key to a design is an accurate use of drivers and amplifiers. The idea is to out sub the mains.

What are the mains ? What do you power them with.How far from the mains do you sit ? Have you measured what level you really listen at ? With a 20hz low limit your choices are vast. Lets get some of these questions answered so we don't overkill this design.

Cheers KG

In a thread i started, another point of integration is what driver takes the signal after the subwoofer ? What you want to avoid is handing over a signal @ 80hz to a 6.5" driver . There is no way that type of driver can relay the same character or intentsity.Some food for thought

KG: thanks for looking at this. My mains are custom: Focal audium T5 tweeter with 2 PHL 1240 in MTM design. box= 12x24x8 (ported). Use an ARC tube amp (Classic 60). Very detailed/revealing tweeter, so I am a little nervous about the quality of any high pass that I use to integrate. I sit around 10 feet away. Listening room size noted above.

Regards,
Jim
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post #23 of 109 Old 06-10-2007, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jxo View Post

KG: thanks for looking at this. My mains are custom: Focal audium T5 tweeter with 2 PHL 1240 in MTM design. box= 13x33x16 (ported). Use an ARC tube amp (Classic 60). Very detailed/revealing tweeter, so I am a little nervous about the quality of any high pass that I use to integrate. I sit around 10 feet away. Listening room size noted above.

My favorite sub wasn't a sub at all. I got my hand on some 6.5" B&W woofers.I think they were the ones that went in the 601 series, yellow kevlar. I mounted four in a sealed enclosure.There were two separate cabinets.They were powered by a Nakamichi PA7 in stereo.The key was the gentleman was using smallish twoways with some Golden tube SE40's.What a pair.The sealed woofersystem probably never was able to go much lower than 35hz, but for music they were the bomb.We use a Creek headphone preamp as a remote volume.perfect.We just "Y" jacked out of the preamp.Never was it part of the systems pathway, just an add on.

KG

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post #24 of 109 Old 06-10-2007, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

My favorite sub wasn't a sub at all. I got my hand on some 6.5" B&W woofers.I think they were the ones that went in the 601 series, yellow kevlar. I mounted four in a sealed enclosure.There were two separate cabinets.They were powered by a Nakamichi PA7 in stereo.The key was the gentleman was using smallish twoways with some Golden tube SE40's.What a pair.The sealed woofersystem probably never was able to go much lower than 35hz, but for music they were the bomb.We use a Creek headphone preamp as a remote volume.perfect.We just "Y" jacked out of the preamp.Never was it part of the systems pathway, just an add on.

KG

... well that was a lot of help.

Regards,
Jim
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post #25 of 109 Old 06-11-2007, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jxo View Post

... well that was a lot of help.

I just found that woofers make a better transition than subs in some applications.

I like to do four RS225's in a sealed box.Two forward two backward.You would need two separate enclosures.They don't have the most Xmax, but would blend better.

Or just get a SVS PB12.

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post #26 of 109 Old 06-11-2007, 07:01 AM
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How about an underhung motor subwoofer from ATC? If you check out diyaudio.com you will find some interesting results there.

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post #27 of 109 Old 06-11-2007, 10:37 AM
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JL W6 ... new model.
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Aura NRT (12")
Peerless XXLS
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ACI Titan

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post #28 of 109 Old 06-12-2007, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

TC-3000 an SPL driver.... Watch out it is also a SQ driver in the proper hands and...setup.

Sorry, the TC3k has too much inductance to have any role in a serious music system. Might be fine to boom around with, for rattling your bones on synthetic explosions. But that nasty and amusical old 3HP motor, even updated with shorting rings, is just not for serious music listening.

Some drivers not mentioned on this thread that are worth considering are the JBL W15GTi, McCauley 6174, and (barely mentioned) the 15" and 18" Aura NRT-based drivers.

In that volume, for music listening with smallish mains and if I had to pick one driver, I'd probably go with the W15GTi because it's cheaper than the Auras, though the new Creative XBL^2 driver might get the nod just because it's something I haven't yet played with.

But what I'm actually doing for a similar preferences (sub designed to mate with superior mains, with high-fidelity reproduction of live acoustic music as the primary consideration by far, only difference being it is a system designed for multichannel music) is using three Peerless XLS12's with their matching PR's in ~105L of cabinet volume. The cabinet I've commissioned (six sided, with the woofers firing 60deg from each other to balance the internal forces) would exceed your height criteria, so if you must do a rectangular box I'd consider upping the volume to 4.5 cubic feet and running four of them instead of threee. Multiple motors mean less excursion at typical listening levels for greater linearity and subjective dynamic "ease."

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post #29 of 109 Old 06-13-2007, 01:56 AM
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DS-21,

Any opinions on the newer XXLS drivers from Peerless?

The McCauley is interesting as it is a prosound driver with a neo motor - a very exclusive club! Not to mention a very low mms.

If the W15GTi wasn't so damn gaudy looking... that poor driver!

Your project is interesting. Didn't you once mention that the high $$ Genelec subs use these same Peerless drivers?

Dr V

Scratch that. I thought the 6174 was using a neo motor for some reason? I must have been thinking of the Bassmaxx drivers...
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post #30 of 109 Old 06-13-2007, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Sorry, the TC3k has too much inductance to have any role in a serious music system. Might be fine to boom around with, for rattling your bones on synthetic explosions. But that nasty and amusical old 3HP motor, even updated with shorting rings, is just not for serious music listening.

Some drivers not mentioned on this thread that are worth considering are the JBL W15GTi, McCauley 6174, and (barely mentioned) the 15" and 18" Aura NRT-based drivers.

In that volume, for music listening with smallish mains and if I had to pick one driver, I'd probably go with the W15GTi because it's cheaper than the Auras, though the new Creative XBL^2 driver might get the nod just because it's something I haven't yet played with.

But what I'm actually doing for a similar preferences (sub designed to mate with superior mains, with high-fidelity reproduction of live acoustic music as the primary consideration by far, only difference being it is a system designed for multichannel music) is using three Peerless XLS12's with their matching PR's in ~105L of cabinet volume. The cabinet I've commissioned (six sided, with the woofers firing 60deg from each other to balance the internal forces) would exceed your height criteria, so if you must do a rectangular box I'd consider upping the volume to 4.5 cubic feet and running four of them instead of threee. Multiple motors mean less excursion at typical listening levels for greater linearity and subjective dynamic "ease."

Do you have any experience with the TC3k? I know Aurther likes them more than his F113's in every aspect, and the F113's sound very good, by pretty much anyone's standards.
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