Any 18Â?s on the horizon with XBL^2? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

It has changed.... we went back to a proven motor design to short-cut the development process. The Neo would have been sweet because to tell you the truth, I don't like dealing with UPS claims. The motor as designed though is significantly cheaper than the neo version. The savings on shipping didn't even come close to paying for the cost of the neo motor. It would have been >$600 and that was not so attractive. I figure most of these are going to be used in IB applications where the size is not as big of a concern as the price/output ratio.

Good stuff. The cost of neo has been increasing steadily so I can certainly understand wanting to control costs a little more closely.

Good luck with that, Kevin.

Neil
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post #32 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

mother fuken right!!!!

18" driver with 30mm Xmax, 0.8mH inductance, and a Qts of 0.61.....all for $209?

man oh man! an IB or multi-sealed setup with these and you are in fabulous shape!!! whoa.

with $1400 including the power plant and EQ, plus 4 drivers, and you can do some SERIOUS damage!

I didn't feel right posting the info.

But man, yes...killer deal.
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post #33 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 11:46 AM
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I do hope this driver sees the light of day, it will certainly be one hell of a bargain...insane displacement/cost ratio!

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

My Natalie P project
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post #34 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 12:34 PM
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Kevin,

You said dual 8 ohm coils so I assumed it was 3.06 per coil, but when I put 6.12 single or dual 3.06 in series into WinISD, it gives a BL of 28 vs. the spec'd 20.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Noah
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post #35 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Kevin,

You said dual 8 ohm coils so I assumed it was 3.06 per coil, but when I put 6.12 single or dual 3.06 in series into WinISD, it gives a BL of 28 vs. the spec'd 20.

Any ideas?

Thanks


My math is wrong.... don't know what I was thinking. I have the inductance as 8mH but it should be half of that. With the VC in series its 16.2mH & inductance in parallel is 1/Lt = 1/L1 + 1/L2 (plus an adder or subtractor for the mutual inductance).

You guys who where questioning my Le number get a 'A+' for your physics homework today.


That has nothing to do with your BL problem though Noah. I don't use WinISD so I don't know what its doing.

Each VC has an Re = 6.12 Ohms. In parallel, where most people will use them you end up with a Re = 3.1 Ohms. With VC in parallel, the BL = 20.15

Mms & BL set the efficiency, which should calculate forward to 87.4 db/1W/1M. Re shouldn't have any calculation forward to the BL. BL & Re are both fundamental values so they are not calculated and as I said, I don't know how WinISD is making its cross-calcs.

Kevin Haskins
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post #36 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 08:45 PM
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Quote:


...large sonosubs are going to be the main solution for vented designs. I've been mainly looking at 340-360L...

Pfff, that's child's play my friend

But good luck trying to use a 10" diameter port in a 360 liter enclosure with any kind of infrasonic tuning Even 8" will be tough unless you want to tune at 16hz or higher.
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post #37 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 11:45 PM
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Pfff, that's child's play my friend

Steve, you gotta understand that 300+ liters IS big to most people. Not us deep bass freaks.
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post #38 of 711 Old 10-17-2007, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Not us deep bass freaks.

Freaks is right! 50ft^3

YID DIY
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post #39 of 711 Old 10-18-2007, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post

Pfff, that's child's play my friend

But good luck trying to use a 10" diameter port in a 360 liter enclosure with any kind of infrasonic tuning Even 8" will be tough unless you want to tune at 16hz or higher.

For sonosubs a single 8" flared is probably going to be the solution. It fits in the sonosub fine, slot ports for the boxes.

And yeah... most people think 12-14 ft^3 is HUGE. You guys are just the fringe element. ;-)

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
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post #40 of 711 Old 10-18-2007, 10:29 AM
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Personally, I consider a <160 liter sub "small". 200-350 liter "medium sized" and then anything thats bigger than me a "large" sub. If I can fit in it/stand in it, its big.
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post #41 of 711 Old 10-18-2007, 10:41 AM
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"You said dual 8 ohm coils so I assumed it was 3.06 per coil,...

"That has nothing to do with your BL problem though Noah."

Right, my problem is reading comprehension

Noah
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post #42 of 711 Old 10-18-2007, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"You said dual 8 ohm coils so I assumed it was 3.06 per coil,...

"That has nothing to do with your BL problem though Noah."

Right, my problem is reading comprehension

Happens to the best of us.

Kevin Haskins
Exodus Audio
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post #43 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Kevin's getting closer; here's an update from audiocircle (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...pic=46027.20):

We have some updated pre-production parameters. We have had two pre-production units built and there is one more coming which will hopefully finalize the design. We are at the point now where we are just playing with suspension compliance & Mms to dial it in.

This is a dual 8 ohm VC design like the Shiva-X & Tempest-X. Parameters with VC in parallel.

Re: 3.1 Ohm
Le: 2.65 mH
Fs: 16.3 Hz
Qms: 5.39
Qes: .39
Qts: .36
Mms: 475g
Cms: .200 mm/N
Vas: 327L
Sd: 1080 cm^2
X-Max: 33mm
X-Mech: 41mm
BL: 19.66
Spl: 87.5 1W/1M
Vd: 7.1L

Wow.... this is serious output. The Tempest-X is no slouch at 4.3L of swept volume. The old Tumult had 5.0L so this is a driver reaching the limits of what can be done with traditional suspension components. We can design more motor travel but it becomes less and less usable due to the limitations of how much power can realistically be used in a driver (you need 1800W to reach full excursion in some designs @ 15A breakers are becoming a limit) and suspension components that operate well under >60mm of P-P displacement. I don't care how many spiders & what you do with the surround, they become non-linear the more you push them and the self-noise increases with throw so there are limits to what can be done with traditional suspension components and we are pushing up against them.

The motor BL is linear to within 10% out to about 27mm with the 30% down being our X-max. The inductance is managed with our AlCu motor technology that balances the Le curve for symmetry using variable width & thickness shorting rings made of either copper or aluminum depending upon the need. The VC is a 3" all copper design with black anodized aluminum former for maximum heat dissipation. Overall we pulled out all the stops on this one. Notice in the sectional drawing below both the notches cut for the XBL^2 motor and the two shorting rings of differing size/materials. This is all carefully designed to minimize inductance & BL based non-linearities. Not your run of the mill motor design.



This is working in slighly smaller boxes than the Tempest-X. Looks good in anywhere from 7-10 cubic feet for vented/PR alignments and it likes to be tuned down around 16-17Hz. Its going to take a PR or a big slot port because your not going to fit a big enough port with this kind of displacement in the smaller size boxes. You should be able to port the upper 10-12 cubic foot designs.

I have a 15" PR in the works but it will take four of them to keep this beast happy. No immediate plans for an 18" PR as two 15"s are cheaper and work well with the Tempest-X & Shiva-X also.

Price is holding steady @ $349 and they will probably start shipping sometime in April/May.
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post #44 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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My initial musings this weekend had me modeling this guy in two different configurations:

15ft.^3 enclosure tuned to ~14.42Hz,
12ft.^3 enclosure tuned to ~16.12Hz.

Both of these systems would utilize one Acoupower 7 port @ ~28 in length (http://www.acoupower.com/ports.php).

Larry
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post #45 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04FLHRCI View Post

My initial musings this weekend had me modeling this guy in two different configurations:

15ft.^3 enclosure tuned to ~14.42Hz,
12ft.^3 enclosure tuned to ~16.12Hz.

Both of these systems would utilize one Acoupower 7” port @ ~28” in length (http://www.acoupower.com/ports.php).

Larry

I'd favor the smaller of the two, tuned higher. I'd also use a bigger port too. The 8" PSP port should perform the same or better. It has a higher core speed although the flare isn't as dramatic. You could use two of them and the port would get long but it would never chuff. ;-)

Better yet use a couple of Bob's 18" PRs. That gets you away from the port problems altogether and you can shrink the cabinet a fair amount. Smaller cabinets are easier to build and brace. Although the two large PRs & the 18" driver may make it a challange.

Kevin Haskins
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post #46 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 02:47 PM
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Better yet use a couple of Bob's 18" PRs. That gets you away from the port problems altogether and you can shrink the cabinet a fair amount. Smaller cabinets are easier to build and brace. Although the two large PRs & the 18" driver may make it a challange.

I've been modeling using the prelim paramters and three of Bob's PRs looks to be a good match. Using three of the 2100g PRs, in 340liters the Fb = 15Hz. Giving an anechoic F3 of 16Hz. Not quite an EBS design, but wow. Can take a lot of power too.

Quote:


The 8" PSP port should perform the same or better.

PSP has 8" ports now? Or do you mean a pair of 6" PSP ports.
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post #47 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 02:50 PM
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"Better yet use a couple of Bob's 18" PRs."

Bob who? Link?

Thanks

Noah
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post #48 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 03:15 PM
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Holy oogly moogly. An XBL^2 18" with 33mm xmax. Wow.

Will these have 8.5" or 10" spiders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Better yet use a couple of Bob's 18" PRs."

Bob who? Link?

Thanks

Bob at Creative Sound Solutions.
http://www.creativesound.ca/

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post #49 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 04:29 PM
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Wow.
Looks like I know what to upgrade to.
2x of these in my 25 cu ft box might be good..
Will have to model it up.

Hmm..
I'd probably have to section off the enclosure in half and use 2x 8" ports I think.
What is the power handling of the driver?

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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post #50 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 05:08 PM
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HA ME ORDER drivers soon. ME will own these... HA

Over 30mm Xmax ...for ~$350-400 A BARGAIN !

Cough cough...

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #51 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 05:08 PM
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What is the power handling of the driver?

My guess is high enough.

But Spezzy, aren't you quite limited w.r.t available power in your room? Like, one 15A circuit? You'd be just able to do a single driver justice let alone two.
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post #52 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

My guess is high enough.

But Spezzy, aren't you quite limited w.r.t available power in your room? Like, one 15A circuit? You'd be just able to do a single driver justice let alone two.

Yeah.. I don't know how I would get a few dedicated 20 amp or 30 amp circuits put here, nor do I know how much it would cost.

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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post #53 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 05:26 PM
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LOL at all who have one circuit, I have two 20AMP and six 15AMP in my little audio room. You brag about power...not before you can feed the amps.

I will have an electrician add two more 20AMP to this room. I must have more.On a sour note,I am running two extension cords each adding 15 AMP extra.

I have no choice...



Looking very seriously ,I am quite sure I will order these new 18" drivers .

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #54 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TheEAR View Post

LOL at all who have one circuit, I have two 20AMP and six 15AMP in my little audio room. You brag about power...not before you can feed the amps.

I will have an electrician add two more 20AMP to this room. I must have more.

So many subs coming. I have no choice...



Looking right now to order these 18" drivers .

I only have a 2400w~ amp.
I have 2x dedicated 15 amp circuits, one of them is for my power amp, the other for my reciever.

"The choices we make define our lives, because choice, not chance, determines destiny"

They call me the 18 year old DJ Audiophile-upgradeitis infected-guy!
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post #55 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 07:09 PM
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"Bob at Creative Sound Solutions.
http://www.creativesound.ca/"

Thanks, Looneybomber.

"But Spezzy, aren't you quite limited w.r.t available power in your room? Like, one 15A circuit? You'd be just able to do a single driver justice let alone two."

It's very unlikely you'll have a problem with a 15 A circuit unless you plan to do continuous sine wave testing.

Circuit breakers have to be overloaded for many seconds to make them trip.

I have my entire system - hot running 7-ch receiver, two Buttkickers and amp, Crown K2 driving dual Ava 18's, source components - on a single 20 A circuit and I've clipped the Crown and never tripped the breaker.

Noah
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It's very unlikely you'll have a problem with a 15 A circuit unless you plan to do continuous sine wave testing.

Well it all depends on what one is trying to drive. My point is, he already has an Rl-p 18. Most would agree with me that a single 15A circuit is just enough to drive it. But why get two more drivers that can utilize even more power when one won't be able to give them anymore power.

One could theoretically tune lower and just gain more extension, but he said he'd be using the one 12ft^3 box he already has, so that limits his tuning frequency to one higher than his current Fb.

So...I'd just stick with what I have if I was him.

Quote:


Crown K2 driving dual Ava 18's, source components - on a single 20 A circuit and I've clipped the Crown and never tripped the breaker.

You've clipped your Crown? Well there you go...
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post #57 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 08:14 PM
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is there any other info on these drivers as to when they might become availible and where?? quite exciting to read through!! what would be an estimated cost to put in a 20 a circuit??
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post #58 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 08:19 PM
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I thought he has a 25cubic foot box? I have driven 4 EP2500's to clipping on a 20amp breaker before with music, you can do some neat stuff, with pink noise and sine wave testing though, the amps shut down often times before the breaker trips due to line sag. Either way though line sag or breaker, one 20 can't drive those amps with tones, but it can for music.

I thought bass was about headroom, not insane spl's, another 18" sub would give him more headroom, they just wouldn't be driven to their limits. This is kind of like Elemental designs A900 subwoofer, it has two decent excursion 18's powered by a 1000 watt plate amp (ok 1300 if you want to go ED's power ratings), that sub can take a lot more power than it does, but it still sounds much better than the single driver version.
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post #59 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Kevin,

I hear what you're saying, and honestly, I'm listening to ya!

I'll likely go for the 12ft^3 tuned to 16Hz; one reason I'm leaning towards the 7" port is there'll be two of these subs in an ~2000ft^3 room; I really don't expect to push them hard enough to introduce port noise. Also, I really like the look of the Acoupower ports, I believe this would make a clean install.

Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Haskins View Post

I'd favor the smaller of the two, tuned higher. I'd also use a bigger port too. The 8" PSP port should perform the same or better. It has a higher core speed although the flare isn't as dramatic. You could use two of them and the port would get long but it would never chuff. ;-)

Better yet use a couple of Bob's 18" PRs. That gets you away from the port problems altogether and you can shrink the cabinet a fair amount. Smaller cabinets are easier to build and brace. Although the two large PRs & the 18" driver may make it a challange.

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post #60 of 711 Old 02-03-2008, 11:07 PM
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Personally Kevin, I am beginning to look for a more to a high output 18 that can be used in small sealed and PR alignments, similar to the LMS 5400. We already have several high excursion 18's that can do large enclosures, the MJ-18, ED19Ov.2 (those are lower on the scale) the Rl-p18, Ficar Q18 and AA Havoc 18, all of which can be used to great effect in large-super large ported enclosures. What would really be nice for the diy subwoofer market right now is another higher power 18" sub, one that can go in a 4cube box and get a Q of under 0.7. Also, a lower fs would be nice as well, similar to what your lineup has right now, right around 20 or upper teens. It would be real nice to do 18" subs that can go in small PR enclosures and have flat, smooth responses like the LMS did. You don't need to have the excursion as the LMS, something with 27-33mm would be perfect.

This is not for something I am "looking for" for myself, but rather in the market right now for the boards. I would love to start doing 18" PR designs again, but they just aren't practical with the drivers in the market today that are designed for large ported boxes.
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