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post #61 of 120 Old 01-16-2008, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Right, I would expect bridged output could vary 200 watts? I am just guessing, does anyone know of any tests like this? Same tester, same methodology, testing several amps of the same model?

I tested two of my PLX3402 amps, I would say loosely
that there might be a 3% difference.



The storm was gone, but dark clouds still hung around
The perfect setting for things to come......

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post #62 of 120 Old 01-17-2008, 09:42 PM
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100000watt,

The walls must do a solid 22 mm each way ! When pushing these beasts.

Eight eD 18" woofers that is one heck of a sealed setup. There was one called BassPig posting here,he also has a mean street sub system. These make me smile each time I see the pics ,old school style power is always good to see.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #63 of 120 Old 01-18-2008, 07:12 AM
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basspig had quite the sub situation, 4 bassmaxx zr-18's (modified TC sounds PA 5000's) powered with two QSC powerlite 6.0's, I'd sure love his amps, they are far better than the ones we drool over these days, they just don't seem to make em like they used too. He mentioned that the guy that had them before him was driving each woofer with a powerlite 9.0! Simply amazing.
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post #64 of 120 Old 01-18-2008, 11:56 AM
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as911,

Amps I dream of...there is none. Maybe a Krell MRA five pack, nonthing lesser. I own a few massive power amps and some not too bad pro amps(Crown XTi1000,2000 and 4000 DIY sub duty,nothing to write home about).

The pro amp I may purchase but am on the fence as they cost no pocket change is the XTi daddy...you know the models... They run a few good K each. For this I will have to build a sub worthy of such an amp,using multiples of the LMS-5400 18" ...now under the Audio Pulse name. Else it is wasted amp and money.

Too many choices.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #65 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_E_Janowitz View Post

Keep in mind that the EP2500's are not a solid amplifier. The may work well for Ib use where they are only called to deliver lower amounts of power, but not when you need them to produce serious levels. We had 6 of them for this installation originally.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=644

Out of the box, 4 of them didn't work right. Three had a problem with not powering up when you turned them on. You had to flip the switch multiple times to bring the amp out of protect mode. The 4th had a broken power switch that couldn't turn off. We used a bridged EP2500 to power each of 4 LABsubs. This is a 4ohm nominal load. After a short period of time we noticed the amps clipping quite badly while playing at the same level they had 20minutes earlier with no signs of clipping. We brought the level down 3db and still clipping, 6dB and still clipping, then 10dB and still clipping. The club was open so we had to continue anyway. Soon 3 out of the 4 woofers in a pair of lab subs stopped playing. The coils physically burnt up. Upon examining things, the amps were putting out a huge amount of DC current. This is what burnt up the drivers, and the reason for clipping at low levels. We replaced the 12" drivers and replaced the amps with QSC PLX3402's bridged. Much more power available and never had the issue again.

The EP2500 is supposedly a copy of the other QSC RMX 2450, but has much less power supply. Unfortunately the power supply is not something you can cheap on if you want a reliable amp. Here are pics of the inside.

http://www.tomhole.com/Behringer%20E...RMX%202450.htm

John

Well, I'm returning my second EP2500. With the first one, I also had to turn the amp on and off many times to get it to work. The second one, after less than a couple of hours of use clipped constantly and at very low levels.

I was able to pick up a used QSC RMX 2450 at the local Guitar Center for $300 + $60 for a one year warranty.
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post #66 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 07:39 AM
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I was holding off for too long..the EP2500 is a piece of certified dollar store junk. There it came out,I feel better now.


Stay with QSC,Crown and the reputable brands. Those 5Kw for $100 amps you get what you pay for. DIY is not about being cheap,proper DIY costs.Cheapo DIY is just that cheapo DIY with corners cut(not routed).

Cheap amps should be hooked to cardboard boxes masqueraning as inert cabinets,using Sony Xplode woofers.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #67 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 09:27 AM
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I use my pro amps, Nady and Tapco in stereo mode into 2 ohm loads. Never a problem.

10000 watt,

Nice job on those subs.

When you build that new home, seriously consider putting those drivers in an IB setup. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. And two of the 2500s would push all the bass you could stand, or maybe that the walls could stand.

Jerry the HT Nut
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post #68 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

I wish I had the equipment to test my amps, I have a feeling that if ten EP 2500's were tested, each amp would have different readings, and the fact that they are "cheap" amps, the values could fluctuate significantly from amp to amp?

100000watt:
Nice setup you got there! I am the Chuck referred to in the amplifier tests. I have 4 Behringer amps and have put all of them on the bench at assorted loads and voltages. I honestly have to say that there is not a 2% difference between them. They are 'cheap' amps. They are made in China by an automated assembly line with automated rolls of parts put in place by robotic pick and place arms doing the work, no humans involved. They are not using 1% components but I am willing to bet that 10 random amps pulled off the line will meet specs and be within 2% of each other. As far as cheap amps, they are...... for the pro guys. As far as I am concerned they are a joke for pro guys, but in my or your cushy AC temperature controlled living room, they work just fine. That is not to say that QSC or Crown aren't better but they cost more. Pick your poison.

Chuck
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post #69 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks HT Nut, If I did IB, I would use the same amount of wattage, just double the amount of drivers.

chasw98, the amps, so far, work ok for listening to music, and for HT use. The only time I find them in-adequate is when I run test tones, lol, The amps heat up fast, and either shut off, or trip the breaker on the back of the amp.
I also had them preform sub-par, before I had all the dip switches set correctly.

This set up is pure bang for the buck. Maybe next time I will go mid-grade, if I can scrounge up enough $$ for something that nice. Say 12 soundsplinter rlp18's sealed, lol, with 6 QSC-plx3602's? Something in that realm anyway.

The way it is I still can get 120db-128db at listening position from 10hz-20hz.

Watched the Darla scene last night, wow, now I see why everyone talks about that scene.
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post #70 of 120 Old 01-19-2008, 04:12 PM
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I've been using (4) of the QSC RMX 1450's bridged with no problems.I even reduced the fan speed.

KG

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post #71 of 120 Old 01-22-2008, 04:30 PM
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man that looks nice. what are the x max on thoes subs? and are they good fir ib?

if you are lucky enough to be irish you are lucky enough
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post #72 of 120 Old 01-22-2008, 10:30 PM
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22mm xmax, here are they are on ED's site, yes they do work for IB's but the new new Fi IB drivers work much better, lower inductance, higher Q, lower fs and 30mm excursion. http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/pro...products_id=37
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post #73 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

basspig had quite the sub situation, 4 bassmaxx zr-18's (modified TC sounds PA 5000's) powered with two QSC powerlite 6.0's, I'd sure love his amps, they are far better than the ones we drool over these days, they just don't seem to make em like they used too. He mentioned that the guy that had them before him was driving each woofer with a powerlite 9.0! Simply amazing.

Actually the ZR-1's are being powered by a single QSC 6.0 for sub-bass. The other QSC drives (6, yes six!) EVX-180B 18" woofers for midbass duties! Thats a total of 10 highly sensitive 18" vented woofers with 2" or 3" excursion capabilities, a ton of power. He has taken considerable time to get the proper power to his rack and the noise floor of the amplifiers custom tuned ultra low, not just out of the box and plug them in. I'd venture to say he probably has the most dynamic system of anyone I know!

Dr V
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post #74 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Thanks HT Nut, If I did IB, I would use the same amount of wattage, just double the amount of drivers.

chasw98, the amps, so far, work ok for listening to music, and for HT use. The only time I find them in-adequate is when I run test tones, lol, The amps heat up fast, and either shut off, or trip the breaker on the back of the amp.
I also had them preform sub-par, before I had all the dip switches set correctly.

This set up is pure bang for the buck. Maybe next time I will go mid-grade, if I can scrounge up enough $$ for something that nice. Say 12 soundsplinter rlp18's sealed, lol, with 6 QSC-plx3602's? Something in that realm anyway.

The way it is I still can get 120db-128db at listening position from 10hz-20hz.

Watched the Darla scene last night, wow, now I see why everyone talks about that scene.


Man what the hell are you guys houses made of, lol. I have four 18" 30mm FI IB woofers and one plx3602 and it makes my home cry when pushed. 16 18" woofers in an IB would be a waste in anything outside of a stadium or large theater, ha ha. Remember, your 8 18" drivers in an IB will become more effecient so think about that when desiring twice the drivers. You sir are a certified nut, my kind of person, ha

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #75 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinculum View Post

Actually the ZR-1's are being powered by a single QSC 6.0 for sub-bass. The other QSC drives (6, yes six!) EVX-180B 18" woofers for midbass duties! Thats a total of 10 highly sensitive 18" vented woofers with 2" or 3" excursion capabilities, a ton of power. He has taken considerable time to get the proper power to his rack and the noise floor of the amplifiers custom tuned ultra low, not just out of the box and plug them in. I'd venture to say he probably has the most dynamic system of anyone I know!

Dr V

Speak for yourself

I knew of his other woofers, but like you said, they aren't for bass, just midbass.
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post #76 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Speak for yourself

I did, Did I not ?

"I'd venture to say he probably has the most dynamic system of anyone I know! " - Dr V

Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

I knew of his other woofers, but like you said, they aren't for bass, just midbass.

Sub-bass, bass, mid bass. Everyones definition is different.

For the Basspig, "Midbass" starts at 25Hz per his crossover setting!
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post #77 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTF View Post

Man what the hell are you guys houses made of, lol. I have four 18" 30mm FI IB woofers and one plx3602 and it makes my home cry when pushed. 16 18" woofers in an IB would be a waste in anything outside of a stadium or large theater, ha ha. Remember, your 8 18" drivers in an IB will become more effecient so think about that when desiring twice the drivers. You sir are a certified nut, my kind of person, ha

Also consider 1/2 the power to each driver also.
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post #78 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinculum View Post

I did, Did I not ?

"I'd venture to say he probably has the most dynamic system of anyone I know! " - Dr V



Sub-bass, bass, mid bass. Everyones definition is different.

For the Basspig, "Midbass" starts at 25Hz per his crossover setting!

I said that in jest, I know he has a highly capable system, (perhaps even a bit overpowered on the low end, if that possible) especially when it comes to bass, personally, I am more of a full range sound fanatic, bass doesn't impress me all that much, he does have high powered mids/highs, but he takes a very different route than I prefer there. Still, to each his own.
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post #79 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Also consider 1/2 the power to each driver also.

I'm good with that though, efficient (well effecient in sub 40hz range to throw a number out there) IB in my small room doesn't need it

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #80 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 11:41 AM
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when you start looking into multiple 18's its not really about getting more headroom, but about hitting deeper. Have you ever looked into how hard it is to get sound at 1Hert? Well everyone without a TRW can forget about that, but if you do stuff like he mentioned (16 18" woofers in an IB), it is possible to go a full octave deeper than you or he is right now.
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post #81 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

when you start looking into multiple 18's its not really about getting more headroom, but about hitting deeper. Have you ever looked into how hard it is to get sound at 1Hert? Well everyone without a TRW can forget about that, but if you do stuff like he mentioned (16 18" woofers in an IB), it is possible to go a full octave deeper than you or he is right now.

No, actually he can go that deep right now. But you cannot hear it. With more drivers and associated power the frequencies that are already present are raised up to the level of human hearing (or maybe human tactile sensation). Once these Hertz are at a level where the frequencies can be manipulated and equalized, then they are usable, so to speak.
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post #82 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 12:54 PM
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Which is why YOU need to finish up your little project
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post #83 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 03:05 PM
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psshh.....1hz? 5hz?

I always get asked "why do you even bother below 20hz", etc, and besides the usual answers of plenty of content subsonically, tactile experience, and all, its always good to see how the HPSF works!

Do you know where the 20 Hz limit comes from? The Human Perception Smear Factor or HPSF. The fastest a human being can keep up with or register an “event” is 1/20th of a second.

Sound waves are oscillating back and forth. A 12 Hz note is pulsing 12 times a second. This is still slow enough for a human brain to perceive each individual “pulse” of the waveform. Once the waves are faster than 1/20th of a second, you can’t keep up with them and your brain “smears” them. The result? Sound. Crazy eh? You only hear sound because you aren’t fast enough to keep up with the speed of the waves. The same thing is true for film. Once you see 20 frames a second, you can no longer keep up with each frame and they blur together. You no longer see individual pictures. You see smooth motion.

So check THIS out. Take your subwoofer and sweep it from 10 Hz to 30 Hz. The moment when your eyes can no longer see the driver moving back and forth is the
same time your ears begin to hear a note !!!!! Give it a try....it was badass the first time I tried it!
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post #84 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 03:17 PM
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Don't do it with a leaky box though, you'll hear sounds starting at 1Hz with the puffing of air in/out of the box

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post #85 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 03:21 PM
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Also, I thought without motion blur that you could see up to around 30fps. Movies don't include 24 non-blurred frames/second. You can end up with blur already in the movie

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post #86 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 03:57 PM
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With a CRT some can see as high as 100 Hz. Personally I can see flicker in CRT monitors up until 75 Hz
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post #87 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I always get asked "why do you even bother below 20hz", etc, and besides the usual answers of plenty of content subsonically, tactile experience, and all, its always good to see how the HPSF works!

Why just the other day I was on the phone to Dr. Ssabripo and the thought popped into my head "Why do you even bother below 20hz?".

So I asked.

And he said, "HPSF!".

Why that just explained it all for me!

armystud: Which project that I should finish?
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post #88 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 04:31 PM
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Quote:


armystud: Which project that I should finish?

He must be talking about the [email protected] project: http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/C...UBproject.html
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post #89 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 05:04 PM
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Aye that's the one, its either I use that or the ED bass manager, the woofer widget always appealed to me too, but its too much $$$ for me at this time.
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post #90 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 05:50 PM
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And I thought you may have meant:

01) The modification to a pair of Hafler DH220 amplifiers that will become monoblocks with 70,000uF of filter capacity and 300 + watts of power at .002% THD

02)The testing of a QSC PLX3402 to see if it will really do 1700 watts per channel simultaneously into 2 ohms. And then use it for my IB!

03)The construction of a 2 cubic foot enclosure to house a 12 inch woofer as the start of a 3 way system.

04)The completion of a remote controlled passive preamp with HT passthrough built in.

05) Or finally get the living room, dining room, hallway, and kitchen tiled to her majesty's liking so I can do the above!
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