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post #91 of 120 Old 01-23-2008, 06:21 PM
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i'm gonna go out on a limb and say the order will be 2,4,1,5,3
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post #92 of 120 Old 01-24-2008, 05:09 PM
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wow, that is awsome
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post #93 of 120 Old 01-29-2008, 10:45 PM
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Just wanted to congratulate you on your awesome setup. RF-83s are by no means small speakers but man do they look puny next to the sub towers. Nice job!!

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post #94 of 120 Old 02-11-2008, 11:06 AM
 
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Awesome build mate, you're going to damage yourself.
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post #95 of 120 Old 02-11-2008, 11:38 AM
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I don't like those subwoofers. They bring up feelings of inadequacy.
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post #96 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the compliments! I am really enjoying, and at the same time disappointed for not raising the budget some, especially the amps.
Now I have been wondering if I would have built them slightly wider, a couple inches taller, and around 10" deeper, I could have put 4 more in each cabinet facing the rear? Don't know how they would sound that way, but its a thought.
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post #97 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 06:28 PM
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Well, I'd really look into an LT circuit for those subs, you don't need output headroom anymore, just an efficient way of managing your output.
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post #98 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I am a bit confused? My frequency response, is very flat, but I clip the amps very easily. Seems like I need more headroom. lol
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post #99 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 06:52 PM
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flat down to what frequency? Also I was referring to driver headroom, not amp headroom, those drivers could take an EP2500 each. How is it that your amps are clipping so much? You have 8 18" subs powered with about 5000+watts, something is going on here, sheetrock should be falling off of your walls.
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post #100 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The Fr is pretty flat down yo 10hz, I have not tested bellow that. lol



I do like it kinda loud. lol
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post #101 of 120 Old 02-14-2008, 08:35 PM
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I spot a potato canon in the racks.

Nice build!
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post #102 of 120 Old 02-15-2008, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

I am a bit confused? My frequency response, is very flat, but I clip the amps very easily. Seems like I need more headroom. lol

In my previous passive radiator setup I had the same problem with the EP2500s when I crossed them over at 80hz. When I crossed them over at 50hz they had way more headroom. But they still clipped too much for my taste even at 50hz. That's why I switched to the QSC unit. Can't remember how many of these you have but maybe you could just add more amps if the speakers impedence will allow more amps to actually give the system more power and if your electrical system is up for it!

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #103 of 120 Old 02-15-2008, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I was thinking of upgrading to 4 QSC PLX3102 amps to replace the 4 EP2500's?


filtor1, yep thats my spud launcher.
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post #104 of 120 Old 02-15-2008, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

I was thinking of upgrading to 4 QSC PLX3102 amps to replace the 4 EP2500's?


filtor1, yep thats my spud launcher.

That may be a good choice. I went through 2 EP2500 that had problems. I now run a QSC RMX2450 running two eD 18". But I have to turn it down so as not to clip and the speakers don't seemed to be strained at all, so I would imagine a more powerful amp would yield better results.
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post #105 of 120 Old 02-15-2008, 07:50 PM
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With EIGHT drivers ,even working at a mere...10mm each way you have a single 18" moving 80mm each way !!! That is moving AIR. Yes your plaster should be falling off the walls,well at least that proverbial picture off the wall(if held with masking tape).
You have eight drivers each capable of OVER 22mm one way! Sealed even muffled with a mufler...you have OUTPUT.

If all drivers are in phase...no way there is no huge output.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #106 of 120 Old 02-15-2008, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I have some output, all things are held down with blue tack. The amps are really lacking, maybe putting out 1/2 their rated output. I know doubling their output will only be 3 db, but its frustrating to have them shutdown so easily.
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post #107 of 120 Old 02-16-2008, 12:46 AM
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So what is making them shutdown? Music? Movies? If music, perhaps you could set up another EQ preset to allow for more headroom in the musical band, (25Hz on up), this should give you more output. BTW, how big is your room? I remember seeing pictures and it didn't look that massive, you should have some decent room gain. If worse comes to worse, I'd buy 16 PR's and modify your enclosures to handle them, they should give you about a 18Hz tune, this would give you output down to 15Hz or so, not quite as deep, but you'd have TONS more output, prolly about 9-15dB more, simply because you are both porting them and going for a higher tune. First prerogative though should be upgrading those amps or getting twice as many.
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post #108 of 120 Old 02-16-2008, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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They don't clip, or shutdown with music. Only with movies, the very low stuff under 20hz seem to be the biggest problem. With a very, strong, low passage they will clip, but on a very long, low passage, that is just under clipping, they will get very hot and trip the breakers on the back of the amp.

When running test tones, I can get a steady 126db at 12hz, but will just start to clip if I turn them up 1 more db, but say at 50 hz, with the same volume setting, I have several db to go before clipping. I would think that would show the amp having less output under 20hz?

The room is under 3,000 ^3
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post #109 of 120 Old 02-16-2008, 02:04 PM
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Yes and no, the real problem is that the drivers are pulling more juice to maintain output below 20Hz, if you look at the power levels required to get the low end up, it gets insane real quick. A simple LT circuit can pull 10-100x as much power down low to maintain fr.

*keep in mind that 10-100x power is the same as 10-20dB of boost down low
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post #110 of 120 Old 02-17-2008, 01:07 PM
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Remove boxes, build IB Manifolds, problem solved

My setup is more effecient down low then up top!!!

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #111 of 120 Old 02-17-2008, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTF View Post

Remove boxes, build IB Manifolds, problem solved

I don't want to lose spl.
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post #112 of 120 Old 02-17-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

I don't want to lose spl.

Um, did I miss something? How would it be possible to loose spl in an IB vs. a sealed box? If anything you'd gain it do to higher effeciency to to less restriction in cone movement or did I miss something?

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #113 of 120 Old 02-17-2008, 09:05 PM
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No you didn't miss anything, technically your efficiency is still down 15dB at 10Hz with the IB setup. However, his is down almost 25dB at 10Hz. With room gain, both are helped out down low, however, with IB subs, while they still draw more current down low, they are much easier to drive than a sealed setup. Due to the fact that his drivers have such a high fs though, they don't get as much natural low end as the Fi Car's though. Nonetheless, he stands to gain over 6dB of efficiency down low if his drivers were in an IB setup, (thats 4x the power!)
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post #114 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 05:42 AM
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Well then an IB would seem to fix the problem described above regarding effeciency at the lower end. But for max output the passive radiator setup maybe the way to go. I can't imagine how big the boxes must become if going ported with 8 18" woofers. How much output do you need crazy 10,000watt man

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #115 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

No you didn't miss anything, technically your efficiency is still down 15dB at 10Hz with the IB setup. However, his is down almost 25dB at 10Hz. With room gain, both are helped out down low, however, with IB subs, while they still draw more current down low, they are much easier to drive than a sealed setup. Due to the fact that his drivers have such a high fs though, they don't get as much natural low end as the Fi Car's though. Nonetheless, he stands to gain over 6dB of efficiency down low if his drivers were in an IB setup, (thats 4x the power!)

I would gain 6db in efficiency, maybe, but I would lose out on a lot of power handling, so overall output potential, still is greater the way I have it?

Is WinISD not accurate when calculating IB? That maybe where I am getting confused.
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post #116 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

I would gain 6db in efficiency, maybe, but I would lose out on a lot of power handling, so overall output potential, still is greater the way I have it?

Is WinISD not accurate when calculating IB? That maybe where I am getting confused.

It's pretty simple, if you can't drive the woofer to xmax at lower frequencies you are loosing ouput (ofcourse this is only an issue at lower frequencies as driving a woofer to xmax at say 50hz i'm not quite sure is possible without melting something in the woofer, atleast not in woofers that are typically used for sub bass). With an IB, if you were really concerned about over excursion at lower frequencies you would just need to eq the lower range. The higher effeciency in these ranges will allow much great headroom for the amplifier to use it's power other places in the pass band of the subwoofer.

With only four 18s my setup is far more capable then my mains or my house, I just don't understand what you are discussing in regards to potential lack of output by going with an IB with 8 of those animals. If you're not at a level of home destroying noise before even four EP2500s are clipping then I think (just a guess) there is another problem at hand such as a signal issue of some sorts maybe. Just a possibility.

Good luck either way

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #117 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 12:21 PM
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Once again we are dealing with the mentality that more input power means a louder sub, no matter what you cut it. When in fact, more power input really just means more distortion and compression, if you can gain efficiency, more power to ya! IB's have quite a bit more output down low, but this does mean that they LOOSE output up high, IB's are completely different from ported subs, you don't loose output up high to tune low. However what DOES happen though is if you are driving them with lots of power up high, you can bottom the drivers if a real deep signal hits because you have so much more efficiency down low.
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post #118 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armystud0911 View Post

Once again we are dealing with the mentality that more input power means a louder sub, no matter what you cut it. When in fact, more power input really just means more distortion and compression, if you can gain efficiency, more power to ya! IB's have quite a bit more output down low, but this does mean that they LOOSE output up high, IB's are completely different from ported subs, you don't loose output up high to tune low. However what DOES happen though is if you are driving them with lots of power up high, you can bottom the drivers if a real deep signal hits because you have so much more efficiency down low.

No doubt, and if you bottom 8 22mm xmax 18" subwoofers in anything other then a concert hall you're going to damage something in your listening environment if not yourself. Point being, I just don't see any concern regarding possibly bottoming his 8 18" woofers if placed in an IB. Granted a sealed box setup is the least efficient alignment one could choose (other then a dipole maybe) I still can't believe with 8 18" drivers there isn't so much output that it's just rediculous!!! Maybe this room is waaaaay bigger then it seems

29 Litres of Infinite Baffle Bliss. Oh, and the rest of the setup isn't too shabby either!
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post #119 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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lol, no we are not dealing with more power = more sound mentality.
It looks like to me the maximum spl with 8 Ed 18's is virtually equal with the IB or 4.8 cubes [email protected] 5hz. The major difference is the amount of power required. It appears that 1/4 of the power is needed in the IB to equal the output of the sealed at 5hz. But as the frequency rises the IB quickly falls behind, unless significant power is added to the IB. Thats why I joked saying I would lose SPL, because of the lower power......
However I did say that I wanted more power, because the 0 watts that the EP2500s put out after some spirited listening is not that impressive. LOL
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post #120 of 120 Old 02-18-2008, 12:41 PM
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Really, I just don't see whats wrong with having only 126dB at 12Hz with sine waves. His room is small, he is getting plenty of gain, he is getting lots of output, if he wants to go deeper he is going to have to completely rework his design, I don't see better amps really getting him there.


10000watt, if you are lacking so much things are going to have to change, you are going to either have to find a way to build an IB or several large ported subs, sealed will just cost a lot of money. You could port your 8 subs that you have right now. According to the models, if each EP2500 is just putting out 1000watts, you are getting 111dB at 10Hz without room gain, if you put each driver in a 15 cubic foot box with a 6" port tuned to 11Hz, you would have 124dB at 10Hz with the same power input. Its up to you, but I don't see how just getting better amps will cut it for what you seem to want. If the subs were ported, even with just 250watts from each amp, you'd be gaining 8dB over your current setup if powered with 1000watts per amp.
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