Most bang for 3,000 bucks? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 07:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello, I have a SVS pb12/2 ultra, and it does ok for the theater, but it does not satisfy me, for my musical needs.

So my goal is to sell the SVS sub, and make 2 subs that take up very little floor space, but yet, will satisfy my urges while watching movies, and listening to music.

The budget is $3,000.00.
After many, many hours of modeling different drivers on WinIsd, doing tons of research, and contacting several speaker manufacturers, I feel that I have found a good compromise of, output, sound quality, floor space, and $$.

The best solution I could come up with, is as follows.

Make 2 sealed cabinets, 22" wide, 22.75" deep, and 87.5" tall. Put 4 Elemental Designs 18" drivers in each box.

Use 4 Beringer EP2500's, having each amp bridged, supplying power to 2 drivers, with a total of of 4 ohm load. This should give me a solid 800 watts to each driver.

Pictures to follow soon.
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post #2 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 08:03 AM
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Sounds like an awesome project. Did you get extra circuits installed?

Have you thought about going IB (Infinite Baffle) or even sLLT (big huge low tuned ported box in your attic)?

And if you made up your mind already and are starting the project, no biggie. I was just trying to help save you some floor space. Either way, your neighbors will be upset

YID DIY
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post #3 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I seriously considered IB, I was going to use the same amount of amps, but go with 16 18" drivers. My current house is on a crawlspace, which would work out perfect, but I am going to be building a new house in the near future, so for portability, and functioning in the next house, I chose to go sealed cabinets.

First pic, installed the auxiliary breaker panel. Ran 4 gauge copper to supply the new box. Installed 5, 20 amp breakers, one for each amp, and one for the Cinenova.




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post #4 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:31 AM
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Keep in mind that the EP2500's are not a solid amplifier. The may work well for Ib use where they are only called to deliver lower amounts of power, but not when you need them to produce serious levels. We had 6 of them for this installation originally.

http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=644

Out of the box, 4 of them didn't work right. Three had a problem with not powering up when you turned them on. You had to flip the switch multiple times to bring the amp out of protect mode. The 4th had a broken power switch that couldn't turn off. We used a bridged EP2500 to power each of 4 LABsubs. This is a 4ohm nominal load. After a short period of time we noticed the amps clipping quite badly while playing at the same level they had 20minutes earlier with no signs of clipping. We brought the level down 3db and still clipping, 6dB and still clipping, then 10dB and still clipping. The club was open so we had to continue anyway. Soon 3 out of the 4 woofers in a pair of lab subs stopped playing. The coils physically burnt up. Upon examining things, the amps were putting out a huge amount of DC current. This is what burnt up the drivers, and the reason for clipping at low levels. We replaced the 12" drivers and replaced the amps with QSC PLX3402's bridged. Much more power available and never had the issue again.

The EP2500 is supposedly a copy of the other QSC RMX 2450, but has much less power supply. Unfortunately the power supply is not something you can cheap on if you want a reliable amp. Here are pics of the inside.

http://www.tomhole.com/Behringer%20E...RMX%202450.htm

John

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Acoustic Elegance, LLC
"Learn from the mistakes of others... you can't possibly live long enough to make them all yourself"
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post #5 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, the differences are huge. Looks like I will need to make some amp changes. I already have the 4 EP 2500's, I knew that they would be the weak link, and would need to upgrade in the future, but I did not realize that they were that bad. Thanks for the info John. If I swapped out the Ep's for the QSC RMX 2450's, would that be a lot better solution?
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post #6 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:49 AM
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I have more issues with their business practices. They copied the QSC design and they seem to have no moral issues about doing so. If you want to reward that behavior, just buy their products.

I've never had the amp so don't have any comment about them. I've seen some testing, its all been good because the turds copied a good design. The build quality may suffer because they are cheap SOBs squeezing their vendors for every penny.

Is there a reason your looking at multiple sealed vs. a ported or PR design?

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Exodus Audio
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post #7 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason for sealed is space, and cost. I modeled up many designs, trying to weigh cost to output/quality, and I went the sealed route. It is a "budget" build, so if it works out great, then. if it doesn't, I will put them in my camper, and start over.
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post #8 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 10:02 AM
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You can get about the same output from a ported design as you do from two or more of the same driver in a sealed alignment. Its the reason why all the king SPL monsters from commercial companies are ported or PRs.

So... you could use two ported 18" subs and get close to the same output and the box size would probably be smaller. Each of those boxes are 25 ft^3 outside dimensions. Even a monster sized ported 18" should go in 12-14 ft^3 so that would be a much more cost effective route. You also will have lower power needs eliminating much of the cost of amplification and you will save all the birdies and trees by using less power.

Just a suggestion.... you won't need more output than a pair of monster ported 18"s unless you goal is to cause structural damage to the house. Properly constructed you can get 115db @ 20Hz measured @ 1M <10% THD from a SINGLE high output ported 18" with 2500W (about the limit of 15A breaker) on it. Two of those and you will never be wanting for more output.

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Exodus Audio
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post #9 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input Kevin.

When I modeled them, in the upper range, 60 hz and up, the sealed had an advantage over the ported, granted twice the drivers. I am trying to compromise theater with music, and my room, so far, seems to have a freakish amount of room gain down low, (under 25hz). Corrected reading with my Galaxy cm-140, I am getting 130db at 10hz, at initial set up. I have the same output at 10hz as I do at 68hz. lol I know things will change significantly after I get it dialed in, but right now the low end is very strong. lol
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post #10 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Thanks for the input Kevin.

When I modeled them, in the upper range, 60 hz and up, the sealed had an advantage over the ported, granted twice the drivers. I am trying to compromise theater with music, and my room, so far, seems to have a freakish amount of room gain down low, (under 25hz). Corrected reading with my Galaxy cm-140, I am getting 130db at 10hz, at initial set up. I have the same output at 10hz as I do at 68hz. lol I know things will change significantly after I get it dialed in, but right now the low end is very strong. lol

Yea... up high the multiple sealed drivers will have an advantage. Room gain is a good thing. Lots of FREE output. ;-)

As long as your room is sealed off from the rest of the house you get a lot of pressure vessel gain, just like a car but lower in frequency. If you are surrounded by concrete that gives you even more.

I'd start with 2-4 drivers though and add only if needed. Depending on the size of your room four high output 18"s should do the trick even in a sealed alignment. Sound quality has as much to do with your room, as it does with the sub. Plan for room treatments (bass traps) and equalization in your budget because that is the best way to get musical bass. The driver alone cannot do it.

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Exodus Audio
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post #11 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again Kevin! I appreciate your input.
One more reason for the sealed, for me, is the ultra low hz output. The sealed seem to model better at the extreme low end, under the port tuning frequency. Like I said, if I can't make it work, adjusting speaker placement, eq, phase, and treatments, I will put them in the camper. And try again, because bottom line, I enjoy creating.
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post #12 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 100000watt View Post

Thanks again Kevin! I appreciate your input.
One more reason for the sealed, for me, is the ultra low hz output. The sealed seem to model better at the extreme low end, under the port tuning frequency. Like I said, if I can't make it work, adjusting speaker placement, eq, phase, and treatments, I will put them in the camper. And try again, because bottom line, I enjoy creating.

You won't be real popular in the campground with four 18" subs.

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Exodus Audio
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post #13 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe, but maybe not, lol, the people I go with would appreciate it.

here are some crappy quality build pictures.

My best friend getting started.





dry fitting some of the braces.




test fitting the baffles.



testing a brace, total failure, it was not even close to fitting, lol, our math skills proved to be rusty.




more dry fitting, another friend came over to help, he cut one circle, on the second brace in, messed it up, and was put on glue duty instead.



reviewing/relaxing at the end of day one.

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post #14 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 01:06 PM
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Less drinking and more working!

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post #15 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Starting to screw it together!



first cabinet getting close.



test fitting the outer baffle.



putting on the outer end caps.




first one screwed and glued. lol.

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post #16 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 02:16 PM
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beautiful
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post #17 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 02:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks! I just wish the pictures would have came out better, there was so much MDF dust in the air that the camera could not focus. Or maybe it was the beer.

start of the second cabinet.




soo many circles.



no messed up braces on the second one.



out of clamps, had to make due with the weights. lol most use they have seen in a long time.




both put together, sanded, masked and ready for the ugly coating.

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post #18 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 02:56 PM
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You really need to let craigsub have a listen sometime to show him what $3k of diy can really do.
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post #19 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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This, to me, is a good representation of what $3,000 can do, for me, but not the average consumer. Also, In order to get everything dialed in, I am going to spend additional $$. It is not a "turn key" sub.
Bottom line, I had a great time building them, and hopefully I will enjoy listening to them even more.

here is a couple more pics.
A close up, to bad it is not a sharp picture.





here is the right one.




here they both are. In the picture I am short two amps, and the rest of the equipment is either spread out in disarray, or missing from the picture.




the back.



Once I get everything settled in, I will use a better camera, to get some decent pics. Also everything will actually be cleaned up, lol, I made such a huge mess in the creation of the subs.

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post #20 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 04:12 PM
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Yeah yeah yeah,that is the spirit ! Build huge subs using many BIG drivers.And build TWO such subs. Now we are talking some serious headroom and big league performance.

Great work,yes the bad thing is eating all the MDF. I know how it feels. COUGH

I see Klipsch mains and center. Should be able to keep up until it gets too loud to handle. Cut the mains at 80Hz. I have Klipsch RF7's front and back (RC7 center) and cut all my Klipsch at 80Hz,let my TC Sounds subs and and half a dozen others do the bass duty. Dynamics,woha dude. Massive efortles output and explosive dynamics.

Ask yourself mortal , do you have as much displacement as me ? The answer is no unless you have a Windmere fan sub.
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post #21 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!

I have been listening mainly to music, jazz and heavy rock. lol They are giving me the sound that I have been missing!
The Rf-83's driven by the Cinenova are doing pretty good, but I am running them through my Yamaha rvx 4600, receiver at the moment. I am going to get a preamp as soon as I can decide on one.. So far the Integra 9.8 is the lead candidate.

So far my biggest regret is rolling on the Duplicolor finish. Had I sprayed it on, they would look a lot better, but they do have a tough, ugly skin.
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post #22 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 05:08 PM
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That looks awesome.... the pictures look great and your cabinet building skills are very good.

Great job!

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Exodus Audio
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post #23 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 06:15 PM
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Those subs are crazy-sick. I don't know of any other words to describe them. Wow! That's a whole lotta' bass.
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post #24 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 08:44 PM
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Nice job, that is a nice setup.

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Past Builds: 24" LMS-5400 cube, Anarchy 25Hz Tapped Horn, Danley DTS-10 kit, BFM AutoTuba, BFM THT, BFM THT-LP
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post #25 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:13 PM
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Brute force is always one way to accomplish a task. WOW... These should get it done nicely.
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post #26 of 120 Old 01-12-2008, 09:22 PM
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I like it. I like it a lot!

...
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post #27 of 120 Old 01-13-2008, 01:42 AM
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Have you fired them up? What are your impressions? whats the world like with 114dB on tap at 10Hz before room gain?
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post #28 of 120 Old 01-13-2008, 05:50 AM
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this reminds me of a couple years back when some crazy dude over at the eD forums put like 18 speakers in his f150

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post #29 of 120 Old 01-13-2008, 06:59 AM
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Now is the time to get some in room response's. It would be nice to see how they measure up in your room. If you are looking to get into single digits with your sealed system you may need some type of LT circuit. I use the Marchand BASSIS.It is a variable LT which will extend the frequency response for you.As you know your sealed system has a quasi -12db roll off ( which is normal for a sealed system.The BASSIS applies the needed inverse to compansate for this natural rolloff to the desired response you are looking for. I've used mine for about five years or so and boy does it work well. You can talk to the guys at Marchand Electronics and they will give you all the dirt on it.Great job and welcome to the world of sealed enclosures. What a pair of towers!!!!

As of Feb 20th still looking for a Marantz SR7010
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post #30 of 120 Old 01-13-2008, 08:14 AM
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