My new Marquee was damaged too..... - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 60 Old 04-20-2009, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks curt, I double checked my connection and they are k.
Should I take out the blue tube and check the yokes placement?
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post #32 of 60 Old 04-21-2009, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Nevermind problem fixed by swapping convergence board

my 9500LC is alive again! (after a year downtime).
I worked on setting things up and found out surprisingly that my H10L lenses have much better focus on center then HD10F. Also found out a lot of variation in performance between lenses of the same model.....


Also wanted to thank all those who helped me through this in this thread!
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post #33 of 60 Old 04-21-2009, 12:01 PM
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That convergence board worked here. If you want to pull it off the heatsink and send me the PC board, I'll repair it at no charge.

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post #34 of 60 Old 04-21-2009, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

Also found out a lot of variation in performance between lenses of the same model.....

I would double check Schemphlug and make sure it's correct.
Congrats on getting it running, everyone loves a happy ending

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post #35 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by draganm View Post

I would double check Schemphlug and make sure it's correct.
Congrats on getting it running, everyone loves a happy ending

This variation among same model reminds me of when I was searching for a L pro serie lenses for my canon SLR. I swapped 3 lenses before I had an excellent one! and differences in performance were not subtle.
Doubt Schemphlug is an issue since it was adjusted and differences are for the center of my screen and not sides. I will take screenshot showing differences at center between 10F/10L Lenses. Differences "might" be because each model have a certain focal plane distance sweet spot and I had my 10L on it. Both have same throw between... Anyways I am very happy with my old HD10L (clear 1080p desktop text) and the 10F are sitting in the corner of my kitchen . (To be fair, the 10F had better corner focus, but since center is much more important(knowing eye center acuity, their kitchen place is justified!)

Curt,

Thanks, I ll do just that. By the way, I think my PJ is really cursed now since yesterday after finishing all convergence and color calibration and placing it on the ceiling, 1 hour later while watching movies, I hear a little noise and blue doesn't focus anymore . This is a brief history of my 1 year struggle with the PJ:

1-Glycol Leak. Repaired then
4-Brocken red tube. Swapped then
2-Green HV Arcing. Repaired then
3-HVPS failure, HDM failure(Twice!). Repaired then
5-Bright Green window on the tube. Repaired by swapping the VIM then
6-Bad blue convergence. Convergence Board swapped.
7-Gobal blue defocus. Repair under way.................

I think the year didn't end yet... CRT is not for the faint heart
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post #36 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

This is a brief history of my 1 year struggle with the PJ:
1-Glycol Leak. Repaired then
4-Brocken red tube. Swapped then
2-Green HV Arcing. Repaired then
3-HVPS failure, HDM failure(Twice!). Repaired then
5-Bright Green window on the tube. Repaired by swapping the VIM then
6-Bad blue convergence. Convergence Board swapped.
7-Gobal blue defocus. Repair under way.................

I am amazed you have the determination to stick with a machine like that? I love the Marquee's but i've never seen a machine with so many problems before

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post #37 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

Wait, those are MP modded VNB's.


Can you look closely at the RED VNB and see if it has a hole in the same place that the white G2 wires is conected on the Green and bleu. The red is conected into the "KEY" part of the Tube. Or take a close up of the red VNB at a nice straight on angle so we can get a look at all the pin placements.
the blue and green could also be LUG's.

it also looks like the Green VNB cage is grounded to the Ground wire from the VDM and covered with black electrical tape? why?
I would make sure the ground wire from the VDM is a straight line to the chassis and the Green braided cable goes to the rear heat sink when its in the closed posistion.

Also connect the black flat ground wire back onto the raised ground connector on the VNB like the green and blues.

it also looks like the VDM and SWA board have been cap upgraded, I wonder why the CVA wasn't done? that one shows the most improvement in performance on a marquee.

I was going to say swap out the VNB's but you cant do that if the red is different, you said you have another marquee? If those VNB's are like the reds
with no hole in it for the G2 line then swap one of those out. the OVER-I circuit on the VNB might be triping the blanking circuit possibly. I forgot if it just shuts of HV or brings the +/-85 line to full 85 to blank out the tube.
I bet its the red VNB though since you said the G?B light up when the HV lead for the red is pulled out.

Curt could help more than I though....

Athanasios

Athanasios, do you replace the caps on the VDM, SWA, and CVA with like value and voltage caps, or do you use caps with a higher voltage? I have a high hour (13K), retubed Marquee 8000 that I'm whipping into shape. The previous owner spent some cash putting in brand new tubes, but didn't bother to refurbish the boards!

Thanks!

A beer and a 10' wide screen...What could be better?
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post #38 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky015 View Post

I have a high hour (13K), retubed Marquee 8000 that I'm whipping into shape. The previous owner spent some cash putting in brand new tubes, but didn't bother to refurbish the boards!
Thanks!

IMO it's really not worth putting that kind of time and money into an 8000. find your self an 8110 or 8500 and swap those tubes right over. Then the board work really pay's off

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post #39 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 11:27 AM
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When it comes to swapping caps you should try and stay close to the original voltage value, as for the capacitance value you can increase somewhat depending on where in the circuit it is. Increasing the voltage rating does nothing to prolong its life providing the cap was spec'd correctly in the first place. Actually using a voltage rating too high won't allow tha cap to work like it should as the dielectric doesn't form properly when powered up.

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post #40 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

When it comes to swapping caps you should try and stay close to the original voltage value, as for the capacitance value you can increase somewhat depending on where in the circuit it is. Increasing the voltage rating does nothing to prolong its life providing the cap was spec'd correctly in the first place. Actually using a voltage rating too high won't allow tha cap to work like it should as the dielectric doesn't form properly when powered up.

Really I always thought it was afe to go up in voltage as this is what many of Mike's mods do. Also i have not seen any adverse affects in keeping the same value uf and going up tot he next voltage. Higher voltage caps mostly have higher ripple current ratings and sometime lower esr's.

On the CVA the main caps on older boards were of larger voltage ratings and those CVA's had less failures while the newer boards with a lower voltage rating cap fail more offten.. Right Dragnm.. We have both seen this
on the Marquee. And from my scoping the CVA board the noise level on the
convergence circuit has gone down some compared to a stock board.


Can you Explain why?

Athanasios
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post #41 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 04:08 PM
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I didn't say it wasn't safe, I said it's not good to be running the cap at a voltage too low below its rated working voltage. In the case of the typical electrolytic the dielectric is properly formed only when the voltage applied is within a certain range of its operating voltage, too high a voltage rating with too low applied voltage and it won't function as it should. Yes higher voltage caps have some better specs but if you can't run the voltage where it should be then chances are its not going to meet those specs.

as I said "Increasing the voltage rating does nothing to prolong its life "providing the cap was spec'd correctly in the first place" ".

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post #42 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

I didn't say it wasn't safe, I said it's not good to be running the cap at a voltage too low below its rated working voltage. In the case of the typical electrolytic the dielectric is properly formed only when the voltage applied is within a certain range of its operating voltage, too high a voltage rating with too low applied voltage and it won't function as it should. Yes higher voltage caps have some better specs but if you can't run the voltage where it should be then chances are its not going to meet those specs.

This might be true in a very extreme exmple, like a 200 volta cap in a 10 volt circuit. However generally speaking it's contrary to everything i've seen in a Marquee, both in failure and performance. the VNB's are a great example, 85V rail with a 100V rated cap , sounds perfect right? Actually it's a proven disaster for the longevity and performance of the circuit. The cap gets overdriven which then causes overheating and and even more leakge in a downward spiral. The correct proven cap size for this circiuit BTW is the Same capacitance and double the voltage = 22Uf 160V cap and that's also coincidentaly what VDC uses in a modern Marquee.
another piecee of evidenece that's not conclusive but is anecodotal is the circuit board itself. The graphics on the boards almost always show a much larger foot-print for the caps than what is actually installed. Athan mentioned the CVA but it's found all over. This seems to indicate that the circiut was originally designed a lot more robust and then downgraded to save money. Good caps are expensive, you can spend $50. on a single machine for just the Aluminum electrolytics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

as I said "Increasing the voltage rating does nothing to prolong its life "providing the cap was spec'd correctly in the first place" ".

well that's the million dollar question isn't it? There's a lot more to it than simply voltage. You have to consider the leakge rate, or rated ripple current at the frequency the circuit will be operating at. I think it's safe to say that in a traditional electrohome/Christy digital Marquee every single capacitor was underated for the High definition/ high frequency scan rates people are using today. I've been testing this for months now and the results sure seem to support that as well.
BTW, if you guys really want to discuss this it deserves it's own thread, not tacked on to the end of the Cow's tale of Marquee woe

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post #43 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 05:19 PM
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I'm not questioning what VDC choose to use. So I guess because it's contrary to what you've seen in the marquee then what I've written must be BS, believe what you will. If you don't understand electronics or designing same then I can understand where you're coming from.

Walter
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post #44 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 05:35 PM
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Dragnm, here walt is correct . I always value what he say's and am glad he spoke up.

I found this info:

http://www2.electronicproducts.com/C...2006-html.aspx

Quote:


Electrolytics
Like batteries, electrolytic capacitors work by chemical action and tend to deteriorate with time. The small leakage current exhibited by electrolytic capacitors is a necessary nuisance in maintaining the oxide film by continuing the forming process that was initially done during manufacture.

Operating an electrolytic capacitor at only a small fraction of its maximum working voltage can cause deterioration of the dielectric film, resulting in loss of capacitance or even total failure. For instance, aluminum electrolytics have longer operational life when operated at 70% to 80% of their rated voltage.

Electrolytic capacitors represent somewhat of a conundrum. When first used in a circuit, they have a voltage safety margin allowing the capacitors to handle the occasional voltage surge that occurs in almost every application.

Unfortunately, if operated below their rated voltage, the capacitors will reform to the voltage at which they are being used, and any voltage surge can result in circuit failure. At the same time, if the capacitors are used at full rated voltage, the leakage current will result in I2R heating losses that will begin to degrade the interface between the electrolyte and the metal resulting in eventual capacitor failure. The basic rule of thumb for electrolytic capacitors is that for every 10°C increase in core temperature the capacitor life is cut in half.

So Electrolytic caps last longer when run at 70-80% of their rated Voltage.

Good to know.. A little too late. I guess we have to hope the circuits don't have a voltage Spike in the circuits as they now conformed to the new voltage.

I did not go up too high in voltage rating for most caps I used.

On the VNB the original cap must have been under speced and the new rated cap should have been used from the get go. That circuit must have many spikes to necessitate the use of the higher voltage.

Athanasios
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post #45 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 05:39 PM
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there's no need to get offended Walter, I was strictly speaking of the Marquee which is the most popular PJ in North american. We are on the CRT forum right?
I'm sure there are circuits operating at very low voltages and/or delicate signals where cap size and power rating are critical. The Marquee isn't one of those cases. we're talking push/pull amplifiers here and the brute force required to drive a coil at very high frequency's. the cleaner you can do that the more you bring out the inherenty qualities of CRT projection like super fast motion (retrace) capability to name just one.

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post #46 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 06:28 PM
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Hi Athanasios,

Damn you must have searched high and low for that, but that's exactly what I was talking about. Maybe I should have just a done a search and posted the link and saved myself the bashing.

Yes we are on the CRT forum but sometimes I get the feeling that if your initials aren't MP or tse(Scott) whom are both great guys and knowledgable then what you offer is always questioned with a gain of salt. Oh well I'll live to speak another day on another topic no big deal draganm no offence taken.

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post #47 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

Dragnm, here walt is correct . I always value what he say's and am glad he spoke up.When run at 70-80% of their rated Voltage.Good to know.. A little too late. I guess we have to hope the circuits don't have a voltage Spike in the circuits as they now conformed to the new voltage.
Athanasios

that's a completely simplistic statement for them to make and if you notice the article relates to high voltage power supply's which typically have a constant power output like the HVPS on the marquee = always at 34.9KV. It completely ignores what happens to a capacitor as temperature and frequency start to increase, they don't even mention it. Yes, applying voltage heals defects in the electrolytic. That doesn't help though when you have a cap rated at only 80% of it's MAX power handling that's now running at 100C and the ripple current starts to climb. The temp of the cap rises and it starts to break down. Here's a white paper that talks about the direct link between underating a cap and cap life.
http://www.cde.com/tech/multipliers.pdf
Quote:
The voltage multiplier f2 arises from the lowered stress on the dielectric when the applied DC volt-age Va is reduced. In electrolytic capacitors, applying DC voltage actually drives a beneficial, on-going electrochemical reaction that heals defects in the anode dielectric. However, at higher stress levels such as when the temperature is near TM ,the additional leakage current from operating near the maximum voltage rating Vr may cause enough electrochemical degradation and hydrogen gas evolution as to reduce the life of the capacitor. Therefore a reduction in the applied DC voltage may extend the life of the capacitor, especially at elevated temperatures in capacitors that are tightly sealed. The effect of voltage derating on life has been modeled with linear fit and with power laws of the voltage ratio x=Va/Vr with exponents from 0 (no effect) to 6. See Figure 1.

So, what they're saying is that is you are operating a cap close to it's rated voltage potential and high temperatures combined with high frequency's (such as 1080P 72HZ) , your better off using a cap with a higher voltage rating as that will have the most benefit to the life of the cap and it's ESR specs. They're also talking about modern caps, tightly sealed and using the most modern electrolytic compounds. Not some paper capacitor from a 1950's radio that needs to be re-charged every time you listen to Ed Sullivan show.
Stick your hand inside your Marquee next time you get done watching 4 hours of a movie at higher scan rates. The factory caps, rated at the first articles recomended 70 or 80% of circuit voltage, are cooking. The Aluminum heat sinks are too hot to even touch. How can that possibly be extending the life of the caps?

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post #48 of 60 Old 04-22-2009, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nashou66 View Post

On the VNB the original cap must have been under speced and the new rated cap should have been used from the get go. That circuit must have many spikes to necessitate the use of the higher voltage.
Athanasios

I'm pretty sure there are no spikes on the 85 Volt rail. See my post above for an explanation of why those caps go bad

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post #49 of 60 Old 04-23-2009, 03:52 AM
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Both posts Dragnm make sense also.... I am sooo confused !!!!

But from my experience so far, the higher voltage caps are fine for now ... over time is something only time will tell.

Athanasios
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post #50 of 60 Old 04-23-2009, 06:11 AM
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I can agree with both sides of this discussion.

First, the problem with the 22uf 100v caps on the marquee neck board was they were low temp (85c). Low temps should never be used on higher voltage rails. They're fine for 5, 12, 24 volt switching rails, but should never be used in higher voltage rails. That's why the later version Christie neck boards had the black 22uf caps. They were 105c temps. the other problem with that cap was the voltage rating (100v). The 20% rule does apply here, but we're dealing with a switching supply, and that should move the 20% rule further out. The caps are DC rated, but with switching supplies there's a high frequency element there that would not be found with a passive 50/60hz supply. That HF element is why we should be using higher voltage caps on higher voltage DC switching rails. Not sure why, but it's seems to be the only way to both keep the cap from premature failure and at the same time, provide the best performance. A 105c cap is the same as a HF cap. So that's what makes them always better for these rails. 85c caps should only be used in lower voltage rails. Therefore, the temperature rating of the cap has more to do with voltage and the type of supply than the environment it will be used in.

For instance. I used to use 47uf or 100uf 105c caps on the neck boards of my mods. The voltage ratings of those caps were 160vdc. I've since went back to the original cap value for the neck boards, but has increased the voltage rating to 250vdc 105c. The 47uf to 100uf worked much like the 22uf when sweeped, with the 22uf doing even better lowering the HF component. The 47uf to 100uf did best with ripple, but the ripple was not a problem, it's the HF component that needed the attention - and the 22uf was best there. however and somehow, it has to be a higher voltage cap.

On other areas of the projector, say like focus, stig and vertical. the same applies even though they are lower voltage rails. Things seems to somehow do better with higher voltage caps there. And I've noticed the same on some Sony and Barco boards.

This may go against the rules, but that's what I found to work out better for me. And that's what got my attention to the work dragenm was doing to the boards. Not sure how he arrived to the same conclusion that I did, but that's why I asked him to take on doing the other boards in the Marquee.
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post #51 of 60 Old 04-23-2009, 06:14 AM
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Draganm, you have no idea what you're even talking about or maybe I should say you are misunderstanding what is being done or what is going on in the marquee and what that paper is saying. But hey you're the expert on this by the sounds of it. Spread the good word.

Walter
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post #52 of 60 Old 04-23-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTS View Post

Draganm, you have no idea what you're even talking about

Walter it's unfortunate that you feel the need to attack me personally instead of adding something meaningful to the discussion. I based the work i've done on the Marquee on many years of work done before by MP, Jaehong Lee, and other people very familiar with the Marquee. The results I've found to be completely in line with previous work done. Matching a cap to a rail in the Marquee based strictly on 20% headroom over the voltage rating of a circuit in the Marquee handicaps the machines full perfromance potential.
I'm done flogging this horse though, MP was kind enough to touch on the key points, and soon people will get the chance to test the premise in their Home theastres. I'll let the results speak for themselves.

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post #53 of 60 Old 04-23-2009, 11:19 AM
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Hi Draganm,

It wasn't meant to attack you, it was to say that because you have done some experimenting on the marquee you think you know how the theory works which makes it okay.
So what I take from that is because you've replaced a few electronic components here and there that that means you know electronics and are expert enough to comment on these theories. I don't claim to be an expert in this but I do have a background in electronics and it has been about 30 years since I graduated.

Sincere question; Do you have an education in electronics? If so then I appologize for doubting you.

Walter
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post #54 of 60 Old 04-24-2009, 12:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry guys, don't want to go off topic but my blue focus problem isn't sovled yet.
The problem is that it comes and go alone without me touching anything. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I swapped the focus vertical board and no improvments.

Tkx for any help....
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post #55 of 60 Old 04-24-2009, 06:14 AM
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Which Board did you swap? the focus board or the Vertical deflection Module?

Try to clean the chips on the CLM or swap out a CLM. the CLM generates the focus waveforms and so does the VDM or CVA not sure. But if you look at the Blue Grid
Which lines are out of focus? the vertical or the horizontal, also are the edges out or the center?

also did you try swapping the focus coil connectors on the FCM, put the red on the blue and the blue on the red and see if the red goes out of focus.


Athanasios
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post #56 of 60 Old 04-24-2009, 07:25 AM
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No, do the simple stuff first.

Swap the focus leads going to the tubes, so that the green focus control adjusts the blue tube and vice versa. It's a bit tough to tune in, as the tubes shut down to only adjust the color that the focus is set to, but since your focus seems to jump around, get it close on each tube, then run the set to see if the same color tube changes focus or not. If it's stil the blue tube jumping, then I'd suspect a bad focus yoke. if the green changes, then swap the CLM.

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post #57 of 60 Old 04-24-2009, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Curt Palme View Post

No, do the simple stuff first.

Swap the focus leads going to the tubes, so that the green focus control adjusts the blue tube and vice versa. It's a bit tough to tune in, as the tubes shut down to only adjust the color that the focus is set to, but since your focus seems to jump around, get it close on each tube, then run the set to see if the same color tube changes focus or not. If it's stil the blue tube jumping, then I'd suspect a bad focus yoke. if the green changes, then swap the CLM.

Yeah Curt said it better than I did I meant the same thing in a longer round about way.

Athanasios
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post #58 of 60 Old 04-25-2009, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Tkx guys,

The problem was fixed by tapping gently on the back of the tube. So something might be loose. it comes back again in a while and its time for another gentle tap....
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post #59 of 60 Old 04-27-2009, 03:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I swapped the 2 pole astigmation-Flare & Focus yokes with the old one I had.
Now blue is ok except for a long 30sec period for focus to settle(Something not found on my R/G Tubes) on PJ Startup. My PJ is gowing up the ceiling tonight!
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post #60 of 60 Old 04-27-2009, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by THE_COW_IS_OK View Post

I swapped the 2 pole astigmation-Flare & Focus yokes with the old one I had.
Now blue is ok except for a long 30sec period for focus to settle(Something not found on my R/G Tubes) on PJ Startup. My PJ is gowing up the ceiling tonight!

That is not right, I think you have a short in the blue tube. You might want to
keep tapping the tube while its running to knock out and burn up any "crud" that got into the guns. It probably happened during shipping.

OR it could be the one channel for focus. DID you swap the focus connectors around from another color tube to see if the bad focus follows it?


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