CRT ceiling projectors still the bomb with HD - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 186 Old 08-26-2014, 07:29 AM
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That's not why I think they are the same person. They sound exactly alike, especially with their way of writing and their hehe's and 5 of 7 of tanswn1 posts are all in this thread. Just struck me as funny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Just because Dj Dee and tanwn1 sees that the CRT days are gone along time ago, does not mean they are the same person. But of corse it means they are total idiots!

Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot
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post #122 of 186 Old 08-26-2014, 08:36 AM
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That's not why I think they are the same person. They sound exactly alike, especially with their way of writing and their hehe's and 5 of 7 of tanswn1 posts are all in this thread. Just struck me as funny.
Phuuuuuuuuuuuu funny!,, haha. Happy?
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post #123 of 186 Old 08-26-2014, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
He was talking to you.
I am aware of that. He was referencing you or tanwn though.

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Originally Posted by Nodscene View Post
Is it just me or does anyone else think Dee and tanwn1 are the same person.
They are not the same person. Tanwn is in Singapore.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #124 of 186 Old 08-27-2014, 12:10 AM
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Cool

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I am aware of that. He was referencing you or tanwn though.



They are not the same person. Tanwn is in Singapore.
No he was referencing to you by saying this to tawn:

That is great. You might want to go over to Curt's forum and give your impression.

And if you say something that can hurt his business, you are an idiot. Hehe
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post #125 of 186 Old 08-27-2014, 09:10 AM
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You are getting lost in translation. Curt's post was directed at me. The subject of his post was in reference to either you or tanwn.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #126 of 186 Old 08-27-2014, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
You are getting lost in translation. Curt's post was directed at me. The subject of his post was in reference to either you or tanwn.
Whatever
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post #127 of 186 Old 08-27-2014, 08:54 PM
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Which is what I should have said a long time ago!

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #128 of 186 Old 08-28-2014, 12:55 AM
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Which is what I should have said a long time ago!
Jepp
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post #129 of 186 Old 11-23-2014, 07:17 AM
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Whenever technology changes, there is a subset of folks that will prefer the old over the new. While the majority will be won over by the advantages of the new, the subset will forever concentrate on the weak points. Sometimes, as with the matter of black levels with PJs, this will be a valid point. Often the so-called advantage of the old over the new is, well, less than real.

Back too many years ago, I had a CRT FPJ. I recall it well. It was a big thrill.
But, despite its being a low-end model, it was still very expensive! Like $7,700!
It was also VERY large! (Like about 36"X36"X10"?).
It weighed "only" 74 lbs IIRC. Installing it STILL required two men to lift it onto the ceiling mount. Then it required several hours for the installer to align. Within a month or two, there was a problem with it, requiring a board replacement. Then it was fine.

After a move, I was looking for a replacement. I looked at getting a used CRT. This was in 2004. What finally killed that idea outright was something seemingly never mentioned here . . . SHIPPING!!!!! Shipping may be "cheap" elsewhere but to rural Nova Scotia, shipping a heavy CRT is going to cost hundreds of dollars! And the spectre of shipping damage is ever-present!
It just seemed a really "bad idea!" Add that to the installation issue I decided against it.

So I went to a digital. Enjoyed it for 10 years!!!! No problems. It would not die!!! All here repeat over and over the mantra these little plastic boxes are "throwaways." You could not kill this one with a stick! It was on its second bulb and functioning perfectly when I finally sold it just last month. I let it go because:
1/ it was only 720P,
2/ it had no HDMI connectivity and I wanted to stream to it from a computer, and . .
3/ I thought "it was time!"

So, it was replaced a month ago with another digital.

I can't relate to folks here still wrestling with these mighty 3-eyed behemoths from the past. While they work just fine, (that is until they don't!), I feel it is an emotional issue, not a technical one. When I hear that some of them weigh 350 lbs (is THAT even true?), I can't restrain an eye-roll.

Now, I've seen this hanging on to technology from the past before. Many times, in many fields. Not just electronics I might add. The behaviour is really very common and one of the things that invariably happen are that the enthusiasts band together in camps (just like this one) to offer positive support to each other and defend against perceived "attacks" from the "non-believers" who quizzically wonder "what's with these guys?" It becomes something closely akin to a religion. And, like religion, it seems few people ever change their minds.

What brought me back to this forum was that I read extensively here a full 10 years ago when I was considering a replacement to my first CRT after it was left behind in a move. I was just curious. I see some of the very same people. The issues certainly have not changed. The units being discussed are the same . . . after all, there are no new ones to discuss. And everyone is just as entrenched as back then.
It's a time warp. Technology marches on and the marketplace changes. Most move along with it. Some choose not to.

The Mustang analogy is a poor one to my mind BTW. I've never met an antique auto owner claiming to get better performance from his antique car than is offered by a modern car. It's really a different issue.

Technology marches on, as does the marketplace. Most move along with it. Some always choose not to. It seems more a matter of psychology than technology.

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post #130 of 186 Old 11-23-2014, 11:46 AM
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Perhaps a better analogy would be photography.

With the advent of digital photography many film cameras were practically given away. Those of us still using film in whatever form were considered dinosaurs or Luddites. Meanwhile a small (relatively) group of photographers still used and continue to use film, and quite frankly if anybody things any digital camera can compete with anything other than convenience with a properly exposed and processed piece of 8x10 film, they're simply delusional.

Does that mean digital is inherently bad, no. Within it's limits it's a perfectly legitimate imaging medium. However, in terms of flexibility, overall image quality and tonality, it's a distant second. And before anybody starts with "but you haven't...", yes I have, I spent 3 weeks shooting with a Hasselblad digital back in my studio on loan. Even the sales rep reluctantly agreed that the final product from film was at least the equal, and in some areas superior. Mind you, this is a $50k+ back we're talking about, not a $500 camera from Wally World.

With film photography, as with CRT projectors, it comes down to skill, proper setup as well as a proper room and calibration of a CRT will make any digital projector look second rate. Digital is easier, granted, but there are other metrics beside absolute resolution that come into play, and if one is serious about recreating the theater experience at home, in my mind CRT still wins by a long shot.
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post #131 of 186 Old 11-24-2014, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epatsellis View Post
Perhaps a better analogy would be photography.

With the advent of digital photography many film cameras were practically given away. Those of us still using film in whatever form were considered dinosaurs or Luddites. Meanwhile a small (relatively) group of photographers still used and continue to use film, and quite frankly if anybody things any digital camera can compete with anything other than convenience with a properly exposed and processed piece of 8x10 film, they're simply delusional.

Does that mean digital is inherently bad, no. Within it's limits it's a perfectly legitimate imaging medium. However, in terms of flexibility, overall image quality and tonality, it's a distant second. And before anybody starts with "but you haven't...", yes I have, I spent 3 weeks shooting with a Hasselblad digital back in my studio on loan. Even the sales rep reluctantly agreed that the final product from film was at least the equal, and in some areas superior. Mind you, this is a $50k+ back we're talking about, not a $500 camera from Wally World.

With film photography, as with CRT , it comes down to skill, proper setup as well as a proper room and calibration of a CRT will make any digital projector look second rate. Digital is easier, granted, but there are other metrics beside absolute resolution that come into play, and if one is serious about recreating the theater experience at home, in my mind CRT still wins by a long shot.
I make this as short as possible not wort using time on this. This is 100% correct also tested many times what I say here. Fact is fact and seen easy on screen. If not seen blind or in the need of strong glasses.
Blacklevel is always perfect on a crt but it stops 100% there. But even that is more or less game over with the new jvc x500.
Then with deeper black, and better shadow detail.
If you like DVD,super soft pictures, flat dynamics compared.... remember compared. And very often blackcrush, loss of punch if you like to have a screen over 80". , and to say the fact today.....a CRT is history. And do not like how HD shall be shown. CRT still then the thing.
End of story........
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post #132 of 186 Old 11-24-2014, 09:03 PM
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What ever.

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post #133 of 186 Old 11-25-2014, 09:04 AM
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Hmmm . . . Strange photography should be mentioned here. As a photographer for many decades, and ESPECIALLY as an astrophotograher, I will just mention that I could not possibly disagree more! Whenever you find yourself using terms like "delusional" in referring to the overwhelming majority of practioners in ANY recognized field, it is time to stop and reassess your own extreme position.
But I do find it interesting that a single individual would be an enthusiast of BOTH film and CRT PJs.
How about tubes? Vinyl? HD-DVD vs Bluray? Even Beta vs VHS. They all have their die-hard adherents. It never occured to me that the very same individuals might prefer to stay with old technology in more than one field. So, if you find a CRT PJ in a home, are you likely to also find film cameras, tube ampilfiers and turntables far out of proportion compared to the populace at large? I wonder.

I appreciate this is a CRT forum. I am not here to poke anyone in the eye. I will never have the opportunity to A/B compare a high end CRT setup with my new digital but I frankly I can not imagine the picture being much better than what I see on my screen right now. And the convenience factor is orders of magnitude better than any CRT! Had I needed to risk delivery of a CRT and wrestle with the installation issue, A PJ in my present circumstances just would not have happened! The picture quality issue in CRT vs digital might, just MIGHT be debatable but the convenience factor certainly is not!
All CRT PJ owners must know that this technology is at the end of the road. The day will come when they must leave the CRTs behind. Tinkering and scrounging for parts will not be viable forever. People will trickle away, leaving the most fervently faithful behind. So the group remaining will become ever more hardened and strident in their view. Only the most extreme will be left.

Another question that intrigues is why the CRT PJ community seems more an "orphan" than tubes and vinyl? I guess the costs of design and manufacture of a limited number of new CRT PJs to satisfy the small demand, unlike tubes and vinyl, is just not viable for any company to pander too? Then again, I wonder how many CRT adherents are enthusiasts solely because these old units are so inexpensive. Of course, back in the day, they were out of reach of most of us! How many here would STILL be CRT PJ enthusiasts if they had to pay the $30,000 price high-end CRTs cost when new? So how many CRT PJ owners are really just "opportunists" as opposed to the more dogmatic? If you are able to tolerate the inconvenience factors these units impose through their size, weight, inflexibility in positioning, etc., you get a fine image for a very low price. That is hardly a bad thing. But it's a far cry from the dogma that a CRT image is inherently superior to digital.

It seems a lot of factors play into hardened positions for and against almost everything, technology included. We see it everyday in politics! Facts often become just irrelevant and actually entirely unwelcome! And opinions rarely change. How many here are totally convinced CRT PJs are "superior" based on some perhaps poorly set up digital they saw years ago? They made up their mind back then and will not change it. After all, they get all kinds of positive reinforcement from the like-minded here proving they are right! The first digital I saw was in 1997, well set up in a home theatre showroom at a high-end audio retailer. I had a CRT PJ at the time. I recall pronounced screen door from a viewing distance of about fifteen feet! That PJ was not inexpensive either! With my present digital, I pretty much have to approach the screen until my eyes hurt to see screen door. I mention this to emphasize that, unlike ossified CRT technology, digital has advanced at a pace where it's been hard to keep up. Call that obsolescence, or "throwaway" if you wish, but that too is a manifestation of an emotional, not rational, position. In technology, progress, by its nature, makes what came before obsolete.

Would any care to take a guess at the percentage of PJ buyers today that are choosing the CRT route over digital? I'd say 0.001% might be overly generous, perhaps even orders of magnitude out!

So, the title of the thread "HD- CRT Still Da Bomb," might play very well to the faithful here but it is deliberately blind to the industry, the marketplace and, ultimately, to reality.

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post #134 of 186 Old 11-25-2014, 01:11 PM
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I just stick to the fact and keep it there.
No one can prove me wrong.
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post #135 of 186 Old 12-15-2014, 07:38 AM
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hingkuaio has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - CRT ceiling projectors still the bomb with HD - in the CRT Projectors forum of AVS Forum.

Here is the message that has just been posted:?
***************?
Thing is, you have the people that like the tweaking, the fact that they? can replace a tube/rebuild a carburetor, something that you simply? cannot do with a digital. A digital is a throwaway unit, as is most? electronics?today. Once it fails, you buy a new one. That is absolutely? not the case with CRT.?

What has this to do with the topic? Nothing......
Rebuild change tubes mod all you want.
still not the value for the money compared to days quality in picture. If you are in to best picture quality CRT is not the thing.
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post #136 of 186 Old 01-05-2015, 10:39 AM
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When I was a kid a 1970 corvette was the pinnacle of automotive lust for me. It was so expensive and far beyond my reach. When I see a 1970 corvette today for sale I consider buying it but the fact of the matter is an Accord will beat it in every performance category. I think people see a CRT projector and remember them being the pinnacle of performance but the fact is they have become the 1970 corvette. I think at times I would still love a 1970 vette though.
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post #137 of 186 Old 01-05-2015, 03:29 PM
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We talk picture. And HD picture quality From a - q. So all aspects. CRT have none in my eyes anymore compared in 2015.
Some pick the daughter and some pick the mother. And in this case it's taking the grandmother. If you love it go a head:relaxed: no one stopping any one of us.
Game Over.
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post #138 of 186 Old 01-05-2015, 06:43 PM
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Yay! Dj Dee wins the internet again...
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post #139 of 186 Old 01-05-2015, 09:41 PM
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Once you are back to crt a jvc will look terrible wrong and misconvergent. If you want digital buy a very good dlp.
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post #140 of 186 Old 01-05-2015, 11:53 PM
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Yay! Dj Dee wins the internet again...
Not winning just the absolute fact.
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post #141 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 02:15 AM
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Once you are back to crt a jvc will look terrible wrong and misconvergent. If you want digital buy a very good dlp.

A DLP to a CRT boy LOL

You have absolutely no clue at all in this area.
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post #142 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 02:53 AM
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Quote:
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A DLP to a CRT boy LOL

You have absolutely no clue at all in this area.
Frankly, I find myself unable to join the laughter. I happen to own a Sony VPH-D50 since 1998 (I'm aware that the G70 is better and I'm also aware that the G90 is a dream machine, but only provided you have it's fan noise properly shielded) and also still use it occasionally.

I would wholeheartedly agree that a CRT projector was state of the art from 1998 up to approximately 2008, and other projection technologies still struggle to achieve CRT black levels and color fidelity.

Native HD picture quality is impressive on a data-grade CRT, but a DLP front projector delivers better brightness and picture detail resolution and, last but not least, perfect convergence from the moment you start it.

While I have no intention to part with my D50, I nevertheless admit that I mostly watch program content with my Optoma HD 83(00).

I also admit that I miss the black level reproduction performance of my D50. The Sony 4K projectors achieve a black level reproduction that rivals their older CRT brothers, but these are currently still out of my price range.

In a nutshell: I can see both sides of the argument, but if I were forced today to make a decision to get rid of one of my projector units, I'm afraid it would be the D50.

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #143 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 05:54 AM
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Sheesh you guys, stop feeding the troll. Let DJ Dee win the argument and the whooole internet, like he did over 2 weeks before Chambers posted.
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post #144 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
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Sheesh you guys, stop feeding the troll. Let DJ Dee win the argument and the whooole internet, like he did over 2 weeks before Chambers posted.
Strange!!!, every time i say the fact as It is and know 100%, you still just call me a troller.

Tell me Curt how many % of the industrial standard 1080P HD
Can a CRT display?

Then Cine 9, 909, marquee 9500lc.

And second what is the best ansi contrast a crt can provide?

And third what is better in a CRT picture today in 2015 than a JVC rs49E/x500?


Let me see you answer without trolling.
And I ask Curt...
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Frankly, I find myself unable to join the laughter. I happen to own a Sony VPH-D50 since 1998 (I'm aware that the G70 is better and I'm also aware that the G90 is a dream machine, but only provided you have it's fan noise properly shielded) and also still use it occasionally.

I would wholeheartedly agree that a CRT projector was state of the art from 1998 up to approximately 2008, and other projection technologies still struggle to achieve CRT black levels and color fidelity.

Native HD picture quality is impressive on a data-grade CRT, but a DLP front projector delivers better brightness and picture detail resolution and, last but not least, perfect convergence from the moment you start it.

While I have no intention to part with my D50, I nevertheless admit that I mostly watch program content with my Optoma HD 83(00).

I also admit that I miss the black level reproduction performance of my D50. The Sony 4K projectors achieve a black level reproduction that rivals their older CRT brothers, but these are currently still out of my price range.

In a nutshell: I can see both sides of the argument, but if I were forced today to make a decision to get rid of one of my projector units, I'm afraid it would be the D50.

I own both the Sony VW1100 and the JVC X500 and if the VW1100 can achieve the blacklevel reproduction of a CRT (and it can in most scenes but not 0 IRE) then the X500 is alot better (I know) than any CRT (except 0 IRE). The JVC totally destroys the Sony in very low APL scenes and the Sony is quite a bit better in bright scenes. Both the JVC and Sony will totally destroy any CRT in total picturequality.

And to the guy who said to buy a DLP ig you want a good digital and a JVC will look miscoverged compared to a CRT, what planet do you come from. Most high end DLP´s are 3 chip and have the same convergence problems a JVC has, my X500 has a misconvergence of about 1/4 pixel and it has panel alignement of 1/16 of a pixel so if you want you can make it perfect. Once you do this it will not drift much and maby you need to adjust again in 500-1000 hours. Can you say the same about a CRT? And a good DLP today has a native on/off of about 4000-6000:1 the JVC X500 about 30000:1- 60000:1+ (the X700/900 even better) depending on where you set the manual iris + it has a DI and measures about 350000:1 with the DI engaged. This results in the JVC is totally destroying the DLP in low APL scenes. And it keeps up very good in bright scenes and is better than most DLP´s even in bright scenes except maby the really high end 3 chip DLP´s like the Sim2 Superlumis. This is when they are brightness matched for testing side by side. The Sim2 has a lot more lumens and than light up a much larger screen than the JVC of corse, but for screens up to 12 feet even bigger if you have a HP screen) wide the JVC is the best bang for the buck projector you can buy today.

A true CRT fanatic can not convert to digital with a DLP, it has to poor blacklevel performance. If a CRT fanatic wants to convert the only way is buy a JVC Xx00.
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post #146 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I own both the Sony VW1100 and the JVC X500 and if the VW1100 can achieve the blacklevel reproduction of a CRT (and it can in most scenes but not 0 IRE) then the X500 is alot better (I know) than any CRT (except 0 IRE). The JVC totally destroys the Sony in very low APL scenes and the Sony is quite a bit better in bright scenes. Both the JVC and Sony will totally destroy any CRT in total picturequality.

And to the guy who said to buy a DLP ig you want a good digital and a JVC will look miscoverged compared to a CRT, what planet do you come from. Most high end DLP´s are 3 chip and have the same convergence problems a JVC has, my X500 has a misconvergence of about 1/4 pixel and it has panel alignement of 1/16 of a pixel so if you want you can make it perfect. Once you do this it will not drift much and maby you need to adjust again in 500-1000 hours. Can you say the same about a CRT? And a good DLP today has a native on/off of about 4000-6000:1 the JVC X500 about 30000:1- 60000:1+ (the X700/900 even better) depending on where you set the manual iris + it has a DI and measures about 350000:1 with the DI engaged. This results in the JVC is totally destroying the DLP in low APL scenes. And it keeps up very good in bright scenes and is better than most DLP´s even in bright scenes except maby the really high end 3 chip DLP´s like the Sim2 Superlumis. This is when they are brightness matched for testing side by side. The Sim2 has a lot more lumens and than light up a much larger screen than the JVC of corse, but for screens up to 12 feet even bigger if you have a HP screen) wide the JVC is the best bang for the buck projector you can buy today.

A true CRT fanatic can not convert to digital with a DLP, it has to poor blacklevel performance. If a CRT fanatic wants to convert the only way is buy a JVC Xx00.
More fact then you are trolling LOL
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post #147 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 02:46 PM
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Take a look at these measurements.
http://www.videovantage.com/?p=819

A JVC has unnatural sharpness and when I look at them I see an unsharpness that looks like misconfergence that is explained in the article. I find them terrible to the eye. But love CRT

DLP might be something to look into. Have not seen the high end but the seem sharper.
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post #148 of 186 Old 01-06-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox001 View Post
Take a look at these measurements.
http://www.videovantage.com/?p=819

A JVC has unnatural sharpness and when I look at them I see an unsharpness that looks like misconfergence that is explained in the article. I find them terrible to the eye. But love CRT

DLP might be something to look into. Have not seen the high end but the seem sharper.
What year is it now?
It's not 2009 that you referring to and old models that was bad from jvc.
and if you have not seen anything in the high end PJ world 2014-2015 why confront people that have?
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post #149 of 186 Old 01-07-2015, 01:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redfox001 View Post
Take a look at these measurements.
http://www.videovantage.com/?p=819

A JVC has unnatural sharpness and when I look at them I see an unsharpness that looks like misconfergence that is explained in the article. I find them terrible to the eye. But love CRT

DLP might be something to look into. Have not seen the high end but the seem sharper.
MTF has drastically improved on the JVC´s since the RS35, how do you think your beloved CRT would show these patterns?? And if you see the improvement from the RS1 to the RS35 it is very good, and alot has happened with the JVC´s since 2009. When you say a JVC has unatural sharpness you are actually talking against yourself when saying they are unsharp. A singlechip DLP can look sharper than a 3 chip solution, but it does not look unnatural sharp. A CRT has unnatural sharpness as it is so unsharp it is unnatural. If you want the sharpest looking projector out there look at the Sony VW1100 and it is not unatural sharp as it has a very smooth picture when set up correctly. The same goes with the new JVC, you can easy set it up to look overcooked (unatural) if you set the sharpness (enhancer) to high.

If you have not seen the new Xx00 series from JVC you don´t know what you are talking about. And what do you CRT guys set highest on your list, it is blacklevel and then DLP is not a solution for you. I like everything with DLP except blacklevel so to me DLP is not an option at the moment, but if the rumors are true it might be in the future.

Last edited by Andreas21; 01-07-2015 at 01:45 AM.
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post #150 of 186 Old 01-07-2015, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
MTF has drastically improved on the JVC´s since the RS35, how do you think your beloved CRT would show these patterns?? And if you see the improvement from the RS1 to the RS35 it is very good, and alot has happened with the JVC´s since 2009. When you say a JVC has unatural sharpness you are actually talking against yourself when saying they are unsharp. A singlechip DLP can look sharper than a 3 chip solution, but it does not look unnatural sharp. A CRT has unnatural sharpness as it is so unsharp it is unnatural. If you want the sharpest looking projector out there look at the Sony VW1100 and it is not unatural sharp as it has a very smooth picture when set up correctly. The same goes with the new JVC, you can easy set it up to look overcooked (unatural) if you set the sharpness (enhancer) to high.

If you have not seen the new Xx00 series from JVC you don´t know what you are talking about. And what do you CRT guys set highest on your list, it is blacklevel and then DLP is not a solution for you. I like everything with DLP except blacklevel so to me DLP is not an option at the moment, but if the rumors are true it might be in the future.
Do you have some measurements to back that up? That JVC has been able to drastical improve on MTF in lcos?

Apart form that I only have seen the older cheaper models and they look terrible wrong. Might be that the newer models do it better but they will always have pixels that have sharp edges and that is not natural. 4k does improve on that. To aa normal guy like me however they are far to expensive and I do not like to change bulbs all the time so no digital for me anymore.

A modified CRT can show perfect MTF. Yes you did not know that? It is true. CRTi is still developed further.

Anyway about DLP they say that ansi contrast will overrule on/off contrast if ansi is very high.
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