Finally rid of that orange push! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 09:25 AM - Thread Starter
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The one thing that has bothered me about moving from my NEC XG's to these Ampros has been their ability to make true Red.
Both, the Ampros and the Barcos have a hard time doing it...you get some true Reds and the "fringe" reds push to orange.
I recently bought a filter that was supposed to take care of this, considering what it was and what it actually did, the price was very high...and when holding it up in front of my Red lense while showing my "red reference" discs, it helped only slightly, not even close to what the NEC's can do. However I installed it anyway...as luck would have it, the installation didn't hold, it started to pull away from the back of the lense due to the convex natural of the rear lense, and I was able to send it back.

The next day I set out on my quest to understand filtering and remedy this problem, several phone calls and three trips to different shops I had the answers!
I learned that the Amber filter I had recently tried worked in approx the 575 nanometer range and above...what was really needed was a filter that worked almost like a squarewave, and worked from approx 675 to 725 NM range...this little bit of Red Heaven is called Roscolux #19.
Its rises very fast at 640 NM, then decays very fast at approx 730 NM.
I brought it home and held a piece up to the red lense while viewing my Red ref's...HOCUS POCUS, it worked perfectly!!!
The Toy Story 2 intro logo is now Red with a hint of orange (as it should be) instead of orange with a hint of red...the red coats in the Patriot are Red instead of red with orange highlights...and Moulin Rouge looks amazing again!
The install was simply, but must be done with care...simply remove the red lense, cut the filter to fit 1/4" into the "black frame" area that's around the tube face, then cut duct tape into 1/2" strips, install tape on filter material so 1/4" is adhered to the filter material (using wax paper under the filter to keep tape from sticking to work surface), and install filter on the tube face working from the center out.
Lastly use a soft cloth to smooth the filter out against the tube face.
Reinstall the the lense.
After finishing I did a grayscale check using our CA-1 colorimeter...strangely enough, sub-brightness had to be turned DOWN one notch? Then sub-contrast was increased by two notches...not bad at all.
All I can say is amazing, Fleshtones are more realistic, being tinted more toward red/pink than orange, unless it's a movie like "From Hell" which is supposed to have a bit of an orange tint, then it's there. True Oranges and Yellows are uneffected (as in 5th Element)
All this at a friction of the cost!
If you want to try this, and don't want to spend the time trying to find this filter material, let me know, I have plenty to spare.
My Reds are now close enough to the NEC XG's that it's a none issue!
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post #2 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 12:39 PM
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Does the filter "stick" on to the tube face?
Is it flexible enough to go onto the concave lens of a LC tube without wrinkling?

Thurman
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post #3 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 01:08 PM
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Sent you a PM KennyG!

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #4 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 01:36 PM
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Kenny, If this worked out for all, would your supplier be able to help figure out what would be used for green? I looked at their website and they have every color in every transparency available it looks like!

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #5 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 04:18 PM
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Kenny- It would be interesting to know if this filter will work for "de-fungused" 187 tubes. Good color filters would allow clear fluid to be used instead of filtering the old fluid during the process. Who knows- it might come out "better than new."

Thoughts?

--Kieth
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post #6 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 05:02 PM
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I'm very pleased with Kenny's choice of filter. It's interesting how it only seems to work on a very narrow range of the color spectrum (which is what we wanted). It makes orangish reds become red. But does not appear to alter other colors.

Bob Wood
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post #7 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Thurman, no it doesn't stick to the tube face, the Duct tape is needed for that.
Nor is it flexible enough to stick on the Lense without some waves being created. That in fact was the strange thing about the "premade" one I bought, it also made the same waves, yet they didn't show up on the Red gun's crosshatch pattern.
Reguardless I like the idea of have it against a flat surface.

As for the Green filter, I will dig into my filter graphs tonight and see what I can find...

Can someone tell me how you know when the Green gun needs filtering?
I realize it's because of a push towards yellow...but I can't seem to see that problem with mine.
If anyone knows of a specific scene that might show this, I'd appreciate it.
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post #8 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 06:13 PM
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KennyG, a great example of someone who will not stop until it is perfect. WELL DONE. There is no comparison to the XGs when you put up true red images. Color Filtering the Ampro, Sony, and the like will give you great results. John Ganon did a great job on Steve B.'s Dwin, and reported on it!

Jeff in Detroit
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post #9 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Jeff, the DWIN needed color filtering? I'm kind of surprised!
They seem like a highend HT driven company, I would think HT would almost demand some sort of filtering.
I've seen one Sony, and I don't remember it pushing like the Barcos or Ampros...perhaps I just wasn't looking for it...I don't think I even realized it on these for about the first week. Once it hit me, I couldn't get away from it.
Today I bought the SuperBit version of Hollow Man, simply because it is suppose to be a reference disc...it is, very close to criterion's version of The Rock.
Tonight is the first time I've gotten lost in a movie since the NEC was sold.
Funny thing is about 3/4 of the way through it I stopped to come in here...:)

I'm pathetic...
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post #10 of 24 Old 07-03-2002, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Jay...taking a look at the spectrum, we see that a good Green filter needs to work in the 510/520 to 540/550 NM range...I found one.
I may go down and pickup a sheet of this, and see what it does.
I haven't seen an example of yellow push yet, so I don't know what it is...I can bet you one thing, light output will drop alot if the Green gun is filtered...it may not be worth the trade off.
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post #11 of 24 Old 07-04-2002, 06:09 AM
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I thought of that. I also have not seen it, and was just thinking what kind of difference it would make. If you look through their color chart you see that each have a transoarency level. The red filter you used was 20%. I assume this means it block 20% of the light? Or was there maybe a formula and that number is derived somehow. Inother words you cannot base the light loss on that number alone. At any rate, I found nothing in a green in that range. There were some higher (45%) and some lower (13%) but nothing at 20. Of course all I was doing was loking at the color and visually matching "pure green". I had no idea what level they needed to work at. Please post your findings!

Oh and BTW...GO TO BED!!! :)

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #12 of 24 Old 07-04-2002, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Rust never sleeps...
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post #13 of 24 Old 07-16-2002, 09:30 PM
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I obtained a piece of the Roscolux #19 filter from Kenny today to try on my Barco 1208/2.

I installed it per Kenny's directions and it works great! I was very happy with the picture and colors I had to begin with, but this tweak really snaps the reds right in.

Thanks to Kenny for doing the research to make this happen!
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post #14 of 24 Old 07-17-2002, 08:00 AM
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Kenny's motto is "where there's a will there's a way".

Bob
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post #15 of 24 Old 07-19-2002, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Well this Marquee is turning out to be more interesting every minute.
After doing my first complete setup on this I needed to sit down and relax...how ever while I was looking at some of my reference discs, I notice this pj is pushing it's oranges alot like the Ampro did.
No relaxing yet, I had to see if the Roscolux would work the same...it didn't! (edit this...yes it did, see below post)

I'll finish this later...my daughter wants me to watch Sponge bob, square pants...never seen it :(
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post #16 of 24 Old 07-19-2002, 10:14 PM
 
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The NEC XG is calling ......... Keeeeeenny .................................... Kenny! ...............................
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post #17 of 24 Old 07-20-2002, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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After a couple episodes of sponge bob, square pants (not bad really!) I got back on this Marquee's Reds...they look just like the Ampro 3600's did, many reds are pushed orange, and on most discs, faces take on a orange hue...I suppose they should, they use the same tubes (MEC 180__22)

At first I was rushed and had thought the Roscolux didn't work as well, so I glabbed some thicker filter material made by Lee filters...I had on hand, their fire red (very similar to the Roscolux) and an Amber made by them.
They all seemed to work well, but the Roscolux works better on fleshtones.

So the Marquee 8500 also benefits.
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post #18 of 24 Old 07-23-2002, 09:56 AM
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Kenny, Just got the filter material in. Can't wait to see how it affects my 8110. Unfortunately, tonight is Chuck E. Cheese for the kids, so alas, it will be tomorrow before I can install and check it out. BTW, I have to say, what a great packing job to keep the material from getting ruined. Also, a great set of instructions from Kenny of not only what to look for both before and after, but where to look (what DVD), as well as very detailed instructions on how to install it right the 1st time. Contrary to other opinions, I think you know what you are doing ;) Thanks Kenny!

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #19 of 24 Old 07-23-2002, 02:35 PM
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Kenny
Can you tell me where to get the Rosco #19 filter?
I would love to try it on my Barco 808 as it is essentially the same PJ as Chris's 1208.
Steve
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post #20 of 24 Old 07-23-2002, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Jay, thanks for the kind words, I think your going to really like what it does to your picture.
Also something I just figured out the other day, I was using this material on the Marquee I am dealing with, and it took about 13 clicks to get my grayscale back into calibration!!! (the Ampro had taken an increase of 2 clicks)
I then realized why, the Ampro's grayscale can change by as much as 200 to 300 degrees per click, so a two click increase was about 400 degrees...the Marquee's grayscale adjustment is much finer...perhaps 30 to 50 degrees per click.
I don't know how fine the Red gun's adjustment is on your Barco, but it's something to be aware of.
Please let me know what you think.

Steve, you have two options, you may find it at a professional lighting & sound company (Third one I went to had it)...or, send me a private message, and we'll see what we can do, I have it here.

Kenny
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post #21 of 24 Old 07-23-2002, 07:25 PM
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Actually Kenny, I have a Marquee as well. It's the 8110 though...little less light output and slightly less H scan rate (110 vs 130 I think). So, I have been following very closely (and taking notes :)) as you deal with your Marquee and others offer their assistance. I too am waiting for Mike Parker to share some internal mods. (hint hint :D)

I will post results after I install the filter tomorrow night (hopefully). I also start a 5 day vacation on Thursday so I should have plenty of time to play...er I mean test. :)

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #22 of 24 Old 07-23-2002, 09:05 PM - Thread Starter
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When testing, you can take a small piece of duct tape, and tape the filter at the top of the plastic lense case, so the filter just hangs down in front of the Red lense. Then you can flip the filter up and down to compare.
Fleshtones take on a whole new look, tinted toward pink instead of orange. Good fleshtone movies are 5th Elemnt, Criterion's the Rock, Starship troopers, and the Pledge. (I"m sure you have your own favorite reference discs)
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post #23 of 24 Old 07-24-2002, 06:38 PM
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Hey Kenny, your backyard hack job of a filter is wonderful! All I have done is hang it in front of my lens (no permanent install yet as I want to get some of that weatherstrip for the light spill and do it all at once) and the results are there.

Keep in mind, my set's colors are not adjusted with a colorometer...only by eye using Avia/VE, but there is a very noticable difference. I always use Bug's Life to warm up, and here is what I noticed:

The ground through all the opening takes on more of a brown color. Unless you install/remove the filter while watching the screen, you'd never notice, but the ground had a bit of pink in it.

The blues are more blue. By A/B switching, you see a but of a change from blue to a purple.

And the reds...I definately understand orange push now. During the tough bug in the city scene, the caterpiller's red spots take on a whole new color.

After it warms up I'll play a movie with some flesh and see what happens. So far I am impressed. None of the differences are major unless you A/B, but omnce you do you hate watching it "the old way." Maybe I just never realized the difference. the real test will be when the wife gets out of the shower and I ask her opinion. Maybe this isn't a refernce disc to test with, but it's what I use in warmup and just couldn't wait! More later!

Thanks a million...Good luck...Let us know... Whichever is appropriate this time! jmwj03 at hotmail dot com
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post #24 of 24 Old 09-07-2002, 01:40 PM
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I finally got a chance to go to a local theatrical supply store to pick up some Rosco#19. The biggest difference I have seen so far is in browns. They are truly brown now.

Thurman
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