Screenshot War CRT vs Digital 2015-2016 - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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To post shots must be a purpose.

Thread purpose is to evaluate pictures from different projectors for those who want.
Why black bars shall be removed are because you then get a better look at the actual important part the picture.

So if posted here the pictures will be compared to other pictures.

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post #452 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony 4K


JVC X500


Marquee with Gabor modifications that does high BW


Screencap 1080P


Also see that the JVC X500 picture is from another frame.

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post #453 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 10:04 AM
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The Marquee Gabor looks really nice. But a little difficult when the screencap and screenshots are not the same frame, probaly several seconsds apart?
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post #454 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post
The Marquee Gabor looks really nice. But a little difficult when the screen cap and screenshots are not the same frame, probably several seconds apart?

I'm going to fix the same of the JVC X500, and might try the NX9 also.
Really hope it looks better than the X500 hehe. I might not dare to try

But you see also like you wrote to me that the first X500 picture was not good. The filter in front of the lens did stuff that did not look good.

I also agree that the Marquee look really nice. The camera used are not the best, but does a ok job.
With a different better camera it will look great.

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post #455 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
I'm going to fix the same of the JVC X500, and might try the NX9 also.
Really hope it looks better than the X500 hehe. I might not dare to try

But you see also like you wrote to me that the first X500 picture was not good. The filter in front of the lens did stuff that did not look good.
If you do not see the same difference in picture quality between the X500 and NX9 in screenshots like you do in real life, then you need a better camera and lens...

The filter you are talking about, what kind of filter is that and how is it used?
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post #456 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ask4me2 View Post
If you do not see the same difference in picture quality between the X500 and NX9 in screenshots like you do in real life, then you need a better camera and lens...

The filter you are talking about, what kind of filter is that and how is it used?
Hehe for shore LOL

The filter is not 100 cleair so must have a function in some way.
I only put it on for protection.

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post #457 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post
The Marquee Gabor looks really nice. But a little difficult when the screencap and screenshots are not the same frame, probaly several seconsds apart?

I agree, the Marquee with Gabor Mods, definitely looks better in comparison to the two JVC's.
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post #458 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 09:59 PM
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Skylight filters was often used together with analog color reversal film to make a "warmer" look. For Digital cameras where the camera itself can adjust the white balance a skylight might do more harm than good.

A filter like that may protect the front element on the objective in some situations, but may also degrade the picture quality (internal reflections etc.), so for controlled screenshot situations like this using a tripod etc. , i think it is safe to photo without any filters like that.
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post #459 of 494 Old 03-20-2019, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
I agree, the Marquee with Gabor Mods, definitely looks better in comparison to the two JVC's.
Is not 2 JVCs its a Sony and a JVC.

And you mean the picture! , I guess you don't think that these pictures shows the projector as you write above, then you have totally misunderstood.
In real the picture of the CRT are much better, same with the Sony and the JVC. If taken with a different camera it even be much better pictures.
You also see the same noise in the Sony and the Marquee that's the camera used.

I have to say this Marquee with these Gabor Mods really look good. Also manages to lift the visible resolution good. So BW helps here definitely.
Different pictures of projectors are on top of the picture.


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post #460 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:51 AM
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Actually, because all three are converted up, they look about the same and that's not good for any of them. You can't take a less than 100K image file and converted it up, and then be able to rate its image quality. They are now over 900K files. How possible could that not affect the structure and resolution content.


And one other thing, when evaluating Close Ups or Foreground. Use the word Sharpness instead, because again, resolution requires the ability to see finer detail in backgrounds or things not up front primarily.


------------


Thread rules:
So, adhere to these please:

1. No Bickering.
2. Use an upload site that keeps Exif data intact to check no software processing being used. image.org for example.
3. Minimum size 16/9 2999x2000/ 235:1 2999x1000 res to make a comparison.
4. For comparing to see more side by side without a lot of black, remove top and bottom in picture. Because they will and have to be removed to get the pictures close for comparison.
5. The shots should be posted one on top of the other to avoid degrading them by either shrinking or scaling up. Both can break up the structure of the image after it' initial resizing.


------------

Check out number 5 above, that I agree with and think you should stick with. And being honest with you, nothing in those shots speak or or represents anything Resolution wise.
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post #461 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
I agree, the Marquee with Gabor Mods, definitely looks better in comparison to the two JVC's.
I would only go so far to say that it looks amazingly good compared to other crts. And for a small screen it holds very good up against jvcs.

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post #462 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Per Johnny View Post
I would only go so far to say that it looks amazingly good compared to other crts. And for a small screen it holds very good up against jvcs.
Here you also see 2 different cameras on the same screen. Like I also said better camera better picture.
Look amazing to be a CRT.






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post #463 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 08:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
Actually, because all three are converted up, they look about the same and that's not good for any of them. You can't take a less than 100K image file and converted it up, and then be able to rate its image quality. They are now over 900K files. How possible could that not affect the structure and resolution content.


And one other thing, when evaluating Close Ups or Foreground. Use the word Sharpness instead, because again, resolution requires the ability to see finer detail in backgrounds or things not up front primarily.


------------


Thread rules:
So, adhere to these please:

1. No Bickering.
2. Use an upload site that keeps Exif data intact to check no software processing being used. image.org for example.
3. Minimum size 16/9 2999x2000/ 235:1 2999x1000 res to make a comparison.
4. For comparing to see more side by side without a lot of black, remove top and bottom in picture. Because they will and have to be removed to get the pictures close for comparison.
5. The shots should be posted one on top of the other to avoid degrading them by either shrinking or scaling up. Both can break up the structure of the image after it' initial resizing.


------------

Check out number 5 above, that I agree with and think you should stick with. And being honest with you, nothing in those shots speak or or represents anything Resolution wise.
What type of screen and inch size are you using to evaluate on Mike?


Added this to point 5, Screencap can be used to illustrate if originals are posted.

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post #464 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
What type of screen and inch size are you using to evaluate on Mike?


Added this to point 5, Screencap can be used to illustrate if originals are posted.



I have an 8 foot wide 1:1 gain screen.




Post shots of the two I have listed below. One on top of the other.

No enhancements or processing in either of them.


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post #465 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:28 AM - Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=mp20748;57781896]I have an 8 foot wide 1:1 gain screen.


What type of PC monitor and inch size are you using to evaluate on Mike?
And please remove black bars. Or please don't post.

Do it like this if not leave it.


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post #466 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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This is your screenshot from the post above, I have now posted how it looks if you watch it on a big screen. Because the picture is so bad.
Seen on my 29inch pc monitor the image in the thread is about 8-9 inch.

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post #467 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:47 AM
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Are you saying I can't post shots with the black bars on them?


And are you aware of how many other shots that are posted already that still have the black bars. Are you going to have them removed, or does this only apply to me. And don't forget that the caps also has black bars..


We tried over the years to set rules on the CRT Screenshot forum, multiple times over. But in every case, was told we could only recommend procedures, because the forum already has rules.


Anyway, maybe that has changed over the years.
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post #468 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post
This is your screenshot from the post above, I have now posted how it looks if you watch it on a big screen. Because the picture is so bad.
Seen on my 29inch pc monitor the image in the thread is about 8-9 inch.



Interesting DJ, that you can blow up (zoom in on a face) an image and say it would represent what it looks like on a big screen. What do you think the camera captured?
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post #469 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
Are you saying I can't post shots with the black bars on them?


And are you aware of how many other shots that are posted already that still have the black bars. Are you going to have them removed, or does this only apply to me. And don't forget that the caps also has black bars..


We tried over the years to set rules on the CRT Screenshot forum, multiple times over. But in every case, was told we could only recommend procedures, because the forum already has rules.


Anyway, maybe that has changed over the years.
Please remove black bars from in this thread from now on.

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post #470 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
Interesting DJ, that you can blow up (zoom in on a face) an image and say it would represent what it looks like on a big screen. What do you think the camera captured?
What PC monitor brand and model number are you using.

And try this out you understand what I mean. Use your own photos posted here on this forum and see it on your CRT projector.

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post #471 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Your picture Mike 2,84Mb
Other picture that is compared with yours 740kb

Same projector I will guess the same screen and just different modifications, setup and camera

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post #472 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dj Dee View Post


Your picture Mike 2,84Mb
Other picture that is compared with yours 740kb

Same projector I will guess the same screen and just different modifications, setup and camera

DJ, not sure why you can't see what's going on with these shots, or are you just looking the other way. When you know already from everything previously sent to you, that they are enhanced. Yes, this is the same person, just look at how the face is broken up. Or better zoom in on both and you're see it..


As pointed out before, those shots are in no way from a high bandwidth video chain. And that you already know. Just go back a month or so and look at how many times you yourself have pointed out that their shots are enhanced. They are at the least clever manipulations to represent a high bandwidth setup. Don't forget, this is the same setup that produced that other picture, that I though was a joke.


Just look at what happens when you click on both, and zoom in. Though mine will expand larger, it still remains intack, while the smaller one is slightly zoomed in, it starts to break up.

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post #473 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 12:18 PM
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I have been running Gabor's mods for a while now.

everyone who watched movies at my place was amazed how good and sharp it looks.

and it's only 200 MHz bandwidth.
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post #474 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 12:47 PM
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I don't want it to appear as if I'm trying to shoot down Gabors Mods, because I won't do that and have never done anything like that. I think he is a very decent guy really, and I think he should be able to move forward with Mods.


What bothers me is when I find my shot posted next to a shot that claims to be High Bandwidth, when I can easily dispute that...




Here are a few things that are always common when you properly address 1920X1080P 60/72hz:


- if the bandwidth is good, you will see clear and abundant WHITES - look at the white in the pictures on the wall in the shot. Look at how the white shows clean and clear. One of the things about bandwidth performance is when it really honers the bandwidth, it will produce PERFECT Black and Whites.


- Colors, regardless of what the original source is, better bandwidth performance will also produce better colors.


- Texture, and the reason why I don't use enhancements. Because any enhancement is distortion.



- Brilliance, or brightness in and between the scenes. Weak bandwidth puts a darker haze over the image. That was what I was pointing out in that first scene DJ posted, that was very weak in brilliance.


Bottom line, if the image lacks pure whites, the video chain is not handling the bandwidth properly. The weak or muted whites is the most obvious rule to determine if the image has good bandwidth performance.



I think we should stop the challenging all together. Just state what you have and be happy with it, and there should be no need to make someone else work look bad in comparison. There are a lot of digital images I can make look bad or CRT images the same. But it would be beneath me to do so.
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post #475 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:19 PM
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This is the grey scale of my latest Mike Parker Mod at 4.5fl on Screen.

white is not an option

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post #476 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
DJ, not sure why you can't see what's going on with these shots, or are you just looking the other way. When you know already from everything previously sent to you, that they are enhanced. Yes, this is the same person, just look at how the face is broken up. Or better zoom in on both and you're see it..


As pointed out before, those shots are in no way from a high bandwidth video chain. And that you already know. Just go back a month or so and look at how many times you yourself have pointed out that their shots are enhanced. They are at the least clever manipulations to represent a high bandwidth setup. Don't forget, this is the same setup that produced that other picture, that I though was a joke.


Just look at what happens when you click on both, and zoom in. Though mine will expand larger, it still remains intact, while the smaller one is slightly zoomed in, it starts to break up.
They are not. If something added its in the camera used. Just like I tried to show you 100 times now, and I give up trying to explain this to you.

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post #477 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post
I have been running Gabor's mods for a while now.

everyone who watched movies at my place was amazed how good and sharp it looks.

and it's only 200 MHz bandwidth.

I can imagine that its great, after seeing G90 and Cine9 this actually look also great after my CRT preference. But for me to use 72hz and still manages to get it to look like 48Hz that must be really great. What I really mean here is that the BW helps so you get the visuale resolution in 72Hz 1080P. Same as using 1080i or 1080P 48 Hz so the CRTs don't struggle.

You are more than welcome to post some great shots.

To bad this was not 15 years ago, I would go bananas hehe

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post #478 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike you might missed my question.

What kind of PC monitor are you using to watch this thread and pictures from then Brand model-number and size?

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post #479 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp20748 View Post
- if the bandwidth is good, you will see clear and abundant WHITES - look at the white in the pictures on the wall in the shot. Look at how the white shows clean and clear. One of the things about bandwidth performance is when it really honers the bandwidth, it will produce PERFECT Black and Whites.
Just one question about this. How do we know what PERFECT Black and Whites look like when using a BD movie as source for our pictures?

You do not approve the use of test pictures where we know exactly what perfect black or white is, and you do not calibrate...

We do have and can look at the BD cap. as a reference for some of the screenshot pictures, but do we not also need a calibrated monitor/screen to know what the reference shod look like too... Do you not agree?

I think white in many of your posted screenshots look to blue and there is some black crush too, almost as if the moon is the light source in many of them.

When it comes to removing the black bars from pictures in this thread, i hope the bd caps can be posted with 1920x1080 resolution so they can be used directly in the BD player...

hope we can evaluate the pictures like this.

G90

RS520

BD cap.
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post #480 of 494 Old 03-21-2019, 02:05 PM
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Posts: 6,833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nidi View Post
This is the grey scale of my latest Mike Parker Mod at 4.5fl on Screen.

white is not an option



Yeah, I remember a graph like that being reported after the mods left your house that time. And after you had your calibrator setup your projector, and how happy and pleased you were with the results. But then I had a visit from someone who removed your boards and then from their location generator an odd graph. My concern on that was that your calibrator did not notice anything wrong as he did when there was a problem with the blue neck board that was fixed and he confirmed that afterwards. Now the various times I reached out to you, you wee still content. All until a person came to visit and wanted to take your boards with them. It still puzzles me that the calibrator, who we all know was and is a top notch guy in the field, was VERY pleased with what was on your screen, to later find out from someone you and I both know, totally disagrees with everything I do..


OK, and so with your setup being so sharp, post a few shots and let us see what it looks like. I still have the PM from Curt's site where your comment after your calibrator setup your projector with my mods in it: "Lots of sharpness" is what you wrote, and I also have what you said your calibrator thought of the mods.



Anyway, I'm glad you're happy. That's all that matters...
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