DVI input mod for Barco 1209s from Greg Eisemann - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 12-20-2007, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi,

I just had typed almost a page of text about Gregs DVI input for the 1209s and now it is all gone
But I wanted to get this in before christmas so here we still have a few words about Greg's DVI solution:

I think I have tested almost all of the better DVI to VGA converter solutions including the highly applauded and cost effective HD Fury, Spatz boxes, the external Moome and others and I have to say compared to the HDFury which I consider to hold its own against all other solutions in the best possible config (hanging directly at the RGBHV via the short dongle) the DVI input version by Greg still trumps it noticably. I am a lazy person and as I only use 1080p 48 at the most so this is what I tested exclusively. Even better results might be experienced with higher bandwidth feeds. I originally looked especially for better resolution and bandwidth, but two other parameters improved noticably so I will mention them first:

Picture noise: IMO the 1209s is a pretty noisy projector and from my test the DVI mod by Greg has a lower noisefloor and cleaner picture than the HDFury, very visible when someone is closer to the screen and still visible from the seating position I prefer (1.2 screen widths).

Steadyness of the picture: There always was a strange instability of the line structure with the external solutions where one line was a moving and shaking a little in relation to the next and previous line, not much and nothing that rendered the picture unwatchable but it was still there. With Greg's input board everything was rock steady and that was a very welcome change, too.

Resolution and bandwidth: Funny thing is that this is where I did not notice a difference at all and as luma resolution and bandwidth limitations can also be nicely photographed I did that too and the photos also did not show a difference between both feeds that I could detect.
This was tested on a pretty maxed out 1209s with scanlines at 1080p and HD10f lens and only looking at green to just evaluate the raw performance of the DVI card, so the setup was not at fault IMO.

So the good news for HD Fury users is: At least with 1080p 48 the HD Fury looks very nice with regard to resolution and bandwidth.

and for those who want a little extra and are ready to pay for it:
With regard to noise floor and steadiness of the picture the DVI card by Greg improves on all other solutions I have seen and for those who want the best there is it is the right choice. Not the cheapest but the best and that is always a bit more expensive than the rest.

Sorry I di not test higher bandwidths but I just do not believe they are necessary or desirable, maybe my third test would have had a different outcome. Still even for the other improvements I would recommend the product for those who want the best - there is an appreciable difference and it is no snake oil product.

And I might add that Greg seems like a nice person to work with, he sometimes takes a little time for things but in the end everything always worked out fine, I got both the DVI board and P19 LUG tubes from him and will order stuff from him again.

Oliver
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post #2 of 24 Old 12-20-2007, 03:53 PM
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Nice to get some info, thanx!

Henning Bortne - Sound Engineer - Loves CRT's
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post #3 of 24 Old 12-20-2007, 11:10 PM
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I am glad to hear that there are videophiles out there who are seeing the improvements Greg has made with CRT's. I would purchase from Greg again anytime.

Bob
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post #4 of 24 Old 12-20-2007, 11:51 PM
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Any marquee owners have some comments on his mods?

Athanasios
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post #5 of 24 Old 12-21-2007, 10:46 AM
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oliver if I could send you the full 6 board set you would see more differences.

G

Gregory C. Eisemann Senior Electrical Engineer, Satcom Engineer, Opnet Engineer, Network Engineering, Satellite Engineering
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post #6 of 24 Old 12-21-2007, 10:48 AM
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greg how about sending me a demo set once the new marquee mods are done

Athanasios
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post #7 of 24 Old 12-21-2007, 11:26 AM
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coming from Oliver this means alot

I would love a 1209s fully stacked from Greg, if I can sell a few HD-SDI mods maybe 2008

Greg you have any plans on a 10-bit true HDMI input mod?

-Gary
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post #8 of 24 Old 12-22-2007, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geisemann View Post

oliver if I could send you the full 6 board set you would see more differences.

G

That would be with a 909 then
I need to sort a few things out Greg before I decide on what I need, I will contact you when I do

And the differences I saw where not to be taken lightly as they made for a definite improvement of the picture and as you said they could be improved upon with adding mods to other boards.

Oliver
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post #9 of 24 Old 12-22-2007, 07:43 PM
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The 909 mod is really a nice mod. Let me know I will set you up with that.


The DVI only it is a nice BW improvement. In order to take advantage of the extra sharpness its best to do that full BW 6 board upgrade the switcher, RGB driver and neck cards.

The DVI only I replace the 1Ghz port 3 input with a 5Ghz on the switcher card to make it equal to the port 5 5Ghz and have to upgrade the bias resistors and filter the power right on the first stage to lower noise so the amps can resolve more detail. Barco used a cheaper input section on the S switcher, the port 3 S model because they knew it was coming from port 3. Port 3 is a 1990 design that has not changed since the first Barco 800. It is very low BW compared to port 5 on the S model. On the NON S model it port 3 gives you a slight edge of more direct input, typically its over peaked to give you more of a perception of sharper picture.

The direct internal DVI is then matched to the circuit with high BW bypass caps. I also have to de-peek the signal slightly as the peaking is too strong with internal DVI so you get a bit of a ring. The trick is to get the peaking perfect so you don't lose detail.

The really nice key is the port 3 is a much cleaner connection into the video path so once you upgrade the input stage from 1 to 5G on the S model and use the internal DVI you have a perfect clean input that is not mucked up with the soft edge add-ons, contrast options, etc. Port 5 on the s models have a lot of extra junk added for options before you get to the actual video chain. The 909 has this same problem as well with the port 5 input.

Greg

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post #10 of 24 Old 12-23-2007, 12:05 PM
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Hi Greg,
Which is the cost of the dvi board for a barco gr 808s?
Thanks!
Rubén
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post #11 of 24 Old 12-26-2007, 10:54 AM
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Just go to my website.

I am running a special that you get a free DVI if you get the full mod set.

I have good specials and discounts for avs members so email me from my website. Please Dont send emails to my avs mailbox its full.

Greg

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post #12 of 24 Old 12-27-2007, 08:51 AM
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Greg, I just wanted to take a moment and say that it's really nice to see you taking the time to personally respond to posts. I know that you're a very busy guy and in the past this caused some misunderstandings and disagreements because you sometimes had your employees responding to posts instead of you doing it yourself. I hope things are well and keep up the good work.

Matt
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post #13 of 24 Old 12-27-2007, 09:52 PM
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Well earlier this year I was in a bad auto accident and got way behind in work.

I am mostly caught up now so thats a good thing.

I did have my assistant answer things from time to time and I found that was not a good thing.

Greg

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post #14 of 24 Old 01-02-2008, 07:43 AM
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Happy New Year!

From my experience recently I have noticed after the mods on 909, Cine 9, 808, 1208, 1209, ETC.

That because the projector is much more sensitive to 1080p and the pixel loss or drops are more easily detected or noticed.

Where you get sparkles or looks like snow on a corner or even the entire screen.


The only real solution I am finding at 1080p over 20 feet is getting fiber optic. I did a install in Maryland and even at 33 feet I had pixel loss.

Greg

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post #15 of 24 Old 02-27-2008, 10:20 PM
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I just wanted people to know I designed a new V9 DVI-HDMI card for the barco just designed this weekend. It has a special sync that goes right into the motherboard.

This card helps correct the 1080p fold over issue, Hphase issue, Raster shift issue, and helps with the lines on the side of the screen.

For people who have ordered in the past I can upgrade for a small fee.

Gregory C. Eisemann Senior Electrical Engineer, Satcom Engineer, Opnet Engineer, Network Engineering, Satellite Engineering
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post #16 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 06:25 AM
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HI Greg,

Perhaps you can explain to me what is on the motherboard that requires a special sync, that's a new one on me with any Barco.

Walter
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post #17 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 06:59 AM
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I want to hand out a kudos to Greg. I am using his DVI card in my 1209s ( bought from Curt Palme) and his service has been first rate. Very smart when it comes to this stuff.
If you own a Barco call Greg he can make it look better more ways then one.

Thanks Greg!!
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post #18 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 11:18 AM
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Many of my customers are complaining about issues with Barco at 1080p.

The new v9 dvi card has this built in.

This weekend I did a direct comparison of 1080p phase delay vs h phase associated with the control of the projector to optimize 1080p stability and information. If you keep the phase closer to 50% you operate in the range the projector is best at and less raster shifts are needed. To create less drift in convergence.

H phase issues, Sync stability and curtain effects no matter modified or not.

The mother board needs specific sync coming from port 3 into the mother board to operate.

Port 3 and RGB 5 are tailored to work with the projector at a certain phase angle.

What I noticed by re-engineering the phase and delay of the horz sync into the mother board that i.e. goes to the horz card you can optimize the width, front porch and get the Hphase closer to 50% at 1080p

This gives you better stability, better width , more information per scan.

Greg

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post #19 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 01:57 PM
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Greg, very interesting! With the V9, how much width of a standard 1080p (like out of a PS3 for example) signal do you think the Barco can display? If it displays the whole thing, that would be awesome!

Thanks,
Mike
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post #20 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 02:13 PM
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Its a lot better now with the V9 but not perfect. About another 10 percent.

Sync and Hphase are closer to 50%

Greg

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post #21 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 05:52 PM
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Hi Greg,

So what you're saying is you've delayed the sync from the DVI. You can't manipulate the H sync in the DVI chip, so you must have put in a delay circuit after the DVI Hsync o/p, is this right?

I don't seem to have any problems getting full width with 1080p, gratned the phase isn't at 50 though.

Walter
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post #22 of 24 Old 02-28-2008, 06:50 PM
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Doesnt HD need tri level sync? is that what your talking about?
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post #23 of 24 Old 02-29-2008, 10:09 AM
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Barco projectors tend to suffer from harmonics at 1080p where you get lines on the left hand side of the screen.

If you keep the H phase closer to 50 % you tend to have less harmonics. Called the curtain effect.

Also on the projectors that do not have the hight scan coils you can have more image scan when you have less phase offset. You can capture more of the image and have more room to play with the phase and shift to get rid of this curtain effect.

The curtain effect is a result of a poor design in the horz card. I am looking at that next to modify the horz card. The mod set will be 8 boards then as that will be a part of the package to finally get rid of the annoying lines!

Yes the delay I added to the DVI/Port 3 card helps this about 10%. So your 1080p phase is greater thus the horz card operates more in the desired range.

I hope that helps.

Gregory C. Eisemann Senior Electrical Engineer, Satcom Engineer, Opnet Engineer, Network Engineering, Satellite Engineering
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post #24 of 24 Old 02-29-2008, 11:27 AM
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Hi Greg,

Now that I would be interested in, getting a fix for the left side curtain effect. I haven't dug into that one. It's there and most of the time not noticed but it would be nice to get rid of it.

Walter
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