Sony 4K Handycam FDR-AX100 thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 3904 Old 01-08-2014, 05:50 PM
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img eL, thanks for that. It's funny how the global sites always have much more information than the U.S. site.

I should mention a couple of things that I omitted in my post above. The 4K Sony can be used as a great HD camera with the new XAVC S codec. You can record with bitrates of 50mbps and thus the performance should be better than traditional, 28mbps, AVCHD recording with rapid motion. Since the sensor and means of reading the sensor, with no line skipping, are the same as the RX10 (which I already know is a winner), I'm very comfortable with this engineering. So for those concerned about 30p, that's a clear option in addition to stunning 4K recording. Shooting landscapes, scenery of different kinds etc. should not present an issue for 30p. Sports? Another story, stick to the traditional HD available in the camera, you've got both so why not use it?

Additionally, I've noticed (even though I'm not a fan of it for other reasons), owners of the BMPCC are not complaining about a lack of 60p. They seem to be quite happy with 30p.

Also, I'm not 100% sure, but it is possible this camera allows independent iris & shutter speed adjustments. There are dedicated buttons for each.
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post #32 of 3904 Old 01-08-2014, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Vizio has a new 50" UHD 4K TV for $1,000 that should work great with this.
http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/07/ces-vizio-ultrahd-4k-pseries-price/
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post #33 of 3904 Old 01-08-2014, 09:04 PM
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I'm curious to see the new Vizios, especially their high end 4K sets. Thanks for the info jogiba.
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post #34 of 3904 Old 01-08-2014, 09:32 PM
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Is it confirmed the Vizio is 4k 2160p 60hz? The specs on some of those models in the link are just 24, others are 24, 60 but none 30?

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post #35 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 12:20 AM
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From Vizio's website:

http://store.vizio.com/news/vizio-announces-pricing-for-best-in-class-p-series-ultra-hd-full-array-led-smart-tv

Focused on bringing an Ultra HD solution to market when it made the most sense for consumers, VIZIO aimed to drastically enhance usability, tapping into technologies that allow for greater content consumption.
Equipped with HEVC H.265 codec, the VIZIO

P-Series Ultra HD Full-Array Smart TVs enable consumers to stream Ultra HD content through Ultra HD enabled apps such as Netflix, with HDCP 2.2 support also built-in, allowing playback of protected Ultra HD content.

To ensure picture quality always remains king, VIZIO also enabled the VM50, a dedicated motion and picture-processing engine that beautifully renders every image, including Ultra HD content, with incredible detail and the latest HDMI standard for display of Ultra HD content up to 60 fps.
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post #36 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiat131 
P-Series Ultra HD Full-Array Smart TVs enable consumers to stream Ultra HD content through Ultra HD enabled apps such as Netflix, with HDCP 2.2 support also built-in, allowing playback of protected Ultra HD content.

My nervousness about this DRM scheme may prove unwarranted with camcorders, and I hope that is the case. It's very clear how HDCP 2.2 works when presented with other HDCP 2.2 devices. It's less clear how it reacts when presented with a non-HDCP 2.2 or MHL enabled device, it should pass HD but may block UHD. If a UHD set was $50 or $50,000, I would not buy it until there are assurances that a means exists for playing unprotected 4k/2160p/UHD personal content. That's been a problem already with some UHD sets.

Edward Felton wrote, "the main practical effect of HDCP has been to create one more way in which your electronics could fail to work properly with your TV," and concluded in the aftermath of the master key fiasco that HDCP has been "less a security system than a tool for shaping the consumer electronics market."

The HDCP 2.2 device is intended to " "frustrate attempts to defeat content protection requirements." Viewed in the context of Edward Felton's statement above, it's reasonable to concluded that Intel's tool for shaping the consumer electronics market is targeting internet/online delivery and the primary means for UHD content delivery.

One display that has an apparent workaround is the Panasonic 4k/UHD display, which has an H.264 decoder for the USB port, allowing personally owned/created content to play from a USB drive. Samsung also decodes and plays UHD content from a USB drive but for UHD comes only with a hack. Sony so far, has frustrated all attempts to play UHD unprotected content except content otherwise obtained through its proprietary authorized products, the X1 media player, Sony direct connected 4k/UHD camcorders and HDCP 2.2 or MHL enabled sources.

Before anyone attacks me for being a 4k/UHD opponent, be aware I'm "all in." I have $60,000 invested in Sony 4k kit, including PMW-F55 CineAlta camera, Cine PL primes, batteries, chargers, memory cards...but NO 4k monitor at this time. I'm watching the issue closely.

As for HEVC, there is no reason to get excited about this. It is merely a low quality 8 bit 4:2:0 scheme to deliver highly compressed UHD content at the existing low HD bitrates over internet broadband. For camera enthusiasts, it is much more important to have a higher bitrate, less compressed, higher quality acquisition codec such as XAVC, XAVC-S, Apple ProRes, Cinema DNG or cinema raw formats.

I've been creating 4k content, mostly in 29.97/p for its cinematic expression, but the F55 is 4k 60/p enabled, shoots 1080/p at up to 180 fps. It's likely not the heat that precludes the AX100 from doing UHD/60p but the speed of memory cards of which AX100 uses a single SD card. The F55 uses high speed Pro SxS 128 GB that cost $1,300 ea for about 30 minutes of 4k/60p.

As for the subject camera at hand the AX100, there likely will be a pro version of this as well with XLR inputs, a few more gamma choices, a little more extensive manual control, perhaps other features as well, but as is, it looks to be a SENSATIONAL value. To have that 1 inch class sensor, lends a modicum of real low light capability and creative DOF control. I may have to get one.

Now solve for me the best UHD monitoring riddle and I'll join you with that solution as well! Good luck all!

Tom

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post #37 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 09:45 AM
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Tom, thanks for a well thought out, informative post. I was totally unaware of the potential pitfalls of playing even personal 4K material on current 4K displays. One would think that would present no issues in that copy protection is not an issue. Who knew?

Having no 4K display as of yet and with plans to get the AX100 to begin archiving in 4K and simply watching now via down-sampling to HD (given the incredible quality, just in this manner), it's not an immediate problem. It certainly does warrant consideration for any imminent 4K display purchase.

On another note, how bad is the motion stutter in UHD with your existing equipment 30p?
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post #38 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post

As for HEVC, there is no reason to get excited about this. It is merely a low quality 8 bit 4:2:0 scheme to deliver highly compressed UHD content at the existing low HD bitrates over internet broadband. For camera enthusiasts, it is much more important to have a higher bitrate, less compressed, higher quality acquisition codec such as XAVC, XAVC-S, Apple ProRes, Cinema DNG or cinema raw formats.
The same was said about MPEG-2, then AVC - these were intended for decent quality at lower rates, but we can see that they are good at higher rates too. Different color subsampling schemes and bit depths are possible with different profiles.
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I've been creating 4k content, mostly in 29.97/p for its cinematic expression, but the F55 is 4k 60/p enabled, shoots 1080/p at up to 180 fps. It's likely not the heat that precludes the AX100 from doing UHD/60p but the speed of memory cards of which AX100 uses a single SD card. The F55 uses high speed Pro SxS 128 GB that cost $1,300 ea for about 30 minutes of 4k/60p.
Panasonic has been offering P2 cards for 50-100 Mbit/s recording for years, but a measly Class 10 SD card allows 80 Mbit/s right now. Sony could easily offer 60p at 60-75 Mbit/s rate if they wanted to.
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post #39 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 10:57 AM
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To avoid more MBs Mbits confusion:

"Panasonic has been offering P2 cards for 50-100 Mbit/s recording for years, but a measly Class 10 SD card allows 80 Mbit/s right now. Sony could easily offer 60p at 60-75 Mbit/s rate if they wanted to."

The top SD card (Sandisk Extreme Pro) allows 90 MBs (that is megabytes per second) write speed. That would allow bit rates of over 700 Mbit/s.

BMP cameras shoot 220 Mbit/s (Pro Res) and can use class 10 SD cards easily. Only shooting RAW requires the Extreme Pro. It is correct that the limited bitrate offered by Sony has nothing to do with the speed of sd cards.
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post #40 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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The fastest SD cards today are the Toshiba EXCERIA PRO with 240MB/s write speed.

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Toshiba has announced the Exceria and Exceria Pro ranges of SD cards - the first to conform to the UHS-II standard and the fastest SD cards yet announced. The Exceria Pro cards will be available in 16GB and 32GB sizes from October 2013 and will offer read/write speeds of 260MB/s and 240MB/s respectively. 32GB and 64GB Exceria series cards offering the same read speeds but half the write speed will follow a month later.

The UHS-II standard increases the maximum possible write speed for SD cards to 312MB/s, when used with compatible devices, compared with the 104MB/s maximum offered by UHS-I cards.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/07/16/Toshiba-Exceria-Pro-fastest-SD-cards-UHS-II-up-to-240MBs-write?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_1
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Panasonic has on display, in another area of its booth, a SDXC UHS-I Speed Class 3 card, which will offer a minimum write speed of 30MB/s (equivalent to 240Mbps). Accordingly, the new Speed Class 3 cards will accommodate the rumored 4K 200Mbps .mp4 capture.
http://www.photographybay.com/2014/01/09/panasonic-shows-prototype-high-speed-sdxc-card-for-use-with-4k-lumix-camera/




https://www.sdcard.org/home/New_SDXC_and_SDHC_Memory_Cards_Now_Support_4K2K_Video_11-6-2013_FINAL_2.pdf

http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/07/new-sd-card-format-is-speedy-enough-for-4k-video/

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post #41 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Dell prices 28-inch 4K Ultra HD monitor at just $699 !
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Last month Dell introduced new 32- and 24-inch 4K Ultra HD monitors but what really got us excited was the promise of a 28-incher in the sub $1,000 range early this year. True to its word, the company has introduced said monitor at the Consumer Electronics Show at the ultra aggressive price of just $699.

It’s known as the P2815Q and it contains an IPS LED display boasting a full 4K resolution of 3,840 x 2,160 that promises the same “screen performance” as the two UltraSharp 4K models announced last month (those start at $1,400, mind you). The 28-inch screen will be height-adjustable and users can even rotate it to portrait view if they so choose.

Dell has yet to announce full specifications on the monitor so things like refresh rate and input options are unknown at this hour. A poor refresh rate could limit the usefulness of the P2815Q in gaming, but let’s not jump ahead of ourselves. It’s probably a safe bet that we’ll see DisplayPort as one input option, however.

We’re still in the very early stages of 4K technology both in terms of software and hardware but there are still several non-entertainment uses for such monitors. For example, they’d serve as an excellent replacement for a traditional multi-monitor display thanks to the added screen real estate. And if you do have the graphics processing power, gaming would look out of this world at max resolution.

The Dell P2815Q will go on sale starting January 23 and be sure to check back for our review of the 32-inch Dell UltraSharp in the near future.
http://www.techspot.com/news/55261-dell-prices-28-inch-4k-ultra-hd-monitor-at-just-699.html

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post #42 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

It is correct that the limited bitrate offered by Sony has nothing to do with the speed of sd cards.

I think the question most people have in the various forums that are excited by this cam, is not so much the bitrate offered by the AX100, but rather the limitation of 30p. Many won't consider it based on the limitation of 30p, not really as the result of the bit rate. With the new codec, especially recording in HD, bitrate should not be an issue.

I initially discounted the AX100 based on 30p. However after seeing the output, I did a very quick 180 and decided it was well worth a try, particularly with the ability to use a line doubler on my display that smoothes out 30p. Since that was my only concern with the 100 (unlike other concerns I had with the BMPCC), I think this will be a great shooter.
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post #43 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Dell prices 28-inch 4K Ultra HD monitor at just $699 !

It's just unreal how quickly prices are falling on UHD displays. This, IMO, will really draw enthusiasts to 4K shooting in droves. They may not initially go for a big screen UHD display, but for a relatively inexpensive computer monitor, it may be a go. Of course many of us will have to replace our video cards to support this higher resolution.
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post #44 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Last April the 50" Seiki 4K UHD TV was $1,500 and today you could get the larger 55" 4K version for $799.99 at Sears !

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Yesterday, Chinese OEM Seiki officially priced its 50-inch Ultra HD TV at $1500, making it the cheapest 4K television in the history of absurd resolution. It's cheaper even than the last round of super-cheap Chinese 4Ks we saw. The price is so low, in fact, and the brand name is so unfamiliar, that you have to wonder if this television was a joke—or worse—a piece of garbage. I'm one of the first people in America to see this mythical creature, and I'll tell you right now: I can't believe my eyes.
http://gizmodo.com/5994765/seiki-50+inch-4k-tv-eyes+on-how-the-hell-is-a-tv-this-beautiful-so-cheap

http://www.sears.com/seiki-50-8221-class-4k-2160p-120hz-led-hdtv/p-05771591000P?prdNo=7&blockNo=7&blockType=G7&sid=I0084400010000100600&aff=Y&PID=3740040&AID=11042411


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post #45 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

Dell prices 28-inch 4K Ultra HD monitor at just $699 !
http://www.techspot.com/news/55261-dell-prices-28-inch-4k-ultra-hd-monitor-at-just-699.html


Bummer that it only does 30Hz 3840 x 2160 and 60Hz for 1920 x 1080.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/01/07/dell-wasnt-joking-about-that-28-inch-sub-1000-4k-monitor-its-only-699/
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post #46 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony Handycam AX100 First Impressions Review :
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While the AX1 could shoot in UHD resolution at 60p, the smaller AX100 is limited to 30p and 24p. In part, that's likely due to the tight thermal envelope of the diminutive AX100 body. A big camcorder like the AX1 can afford to run a little hot since it has the surface area for a larger active cooling system. But you wouldn't want prominent vents or fans on a user-friendly, compact camcorder like the AX100.[Ed. note: The pros out there will want to know about the AX100's chroma subsampling capabilities, but unfortunately Sony hasn't made that information public quite yet.]
Sony has worked on making sure that even if you capture footage in 4K, you can share it on your current-generation equipment. The AX100 downscales in-camera to make your 4K footage playable on a standard full-HD television over HDMI.

If you're an early adopter, this is the 4K camcorder to buy. Not only is it the only game in town, it's also reasonably priced and fully featured.
If you're in the content creation business, or even if you're just a hobbyist who wants the latest and greatest, the AX100 is an extremely enticing package. The combination of a 1-inch sensor with an accommodating aperture, native 4K UHD in 30 and 24p, and good-enough manual controls will definitely appeal to the amateur filmmaker crowd. If you're not interested in a more complicated solution like a Blackmagic 4K Cinema Camera, the AX100 is a fixed-lens alternative you can tote without rigging, lenses, or any of those accompanying accoutrements.
http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/sony-handycam-ax100-first-impressions-review

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post #47 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 05:41 PM
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That was my initial supposition, that the lack of 60p was due to cooling issues.
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post #48 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 06:11 PM
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Hi Ken,

Of course you should not expect agreement from everyone on frame rates, I personally prefer 29.97/p but with a warning, the shutter speed choice is critical for fluidity, and choosing the right one can be a problem with certain cameras. Of course what you are trying to do is strike the perfect balance between too-fast stutter and strobing which are sharp but choppy, and slow shutter speeds which smear and melt the image with excessive ghost trails under panning or subject motion. The correct balance is achieved when there is fluidity, and some softening in high motion, but razor sharp and detailed when the motion/panning slows. There's a problem sometimes in attaining that balance, in that some cameras have only a few discrete shutter speeds to work with, like 1/30, 1/60, 1/120. And it is essential to manipulate motion blur simultaneously with creative control of DOF. With the F55 and also my PMW350 2/3 inch shoulder cam, through experimentation I try to shoot with 1/40th second shutter and the lens iris as open as possible. That's going to give you really awesome lower light, but the slow shutter complicates attaining shallow DOF because you may be stopping down the iris, or adding lots of ND to keep the image from being overexposed.

But DPs attain this fluidity balance most of the time even using 24p. Now can the AX100 shoot 1/40th shutter? I don't know. 1/60th is a little fast and stuttery for my liking, 1/30 is too slow and smears. Another factor that really sets apart amateur video from pro video is too much reliance on automation controls, OIS and auto exposure. Automation enabled is the only way when there isn't time to plan the shot, but shooting from a tripod, monopod, steadycam (especially) is how those glorious end zone shots are filmed, sharp when you need it, smooth and fluid when you don't. There's no doubt and there never has been any doubt, that 60fps is capturing motion detail not possible any other way. The real debate is whether HFR motion can be cinematic.

If I had to choose one, I'd choose 29.97p over 59.94p for anything that should look cinematic, and 59.94p for slo-motion and close examination of motion, motor sports etc. The SOE ruins it for me, but that's why we should have choices.

(I can't wait to learn your 4k monitor choice, because that's the one I'm getting too. And I hope I did not spread FUD about the post CES monitors.

But when it's the internet, I tend to be careful about who to trust, because sometimes it's found they know less, or are using products in less sophisticated ways. It would be interesting to hear what editors and grading tools people are using when playability and codec support is the question, Final Cut Pro(X), Adobe Premier CC, DaVinci Resolve, Avid, Vegas Pro12, or ...Movie Factory, or maybe not even rendering anything, just hooking the camera's HDMI directly to the UHD and pressing >Play. But there is great information at AVS, expecially from the consumer side of things, and that's where I'm looking for help, the best overall monitor because as mentioned, except for screen captures and pixel peeping, the only true 4k images I've seen were at the Best Buy, but it's tempting to try and plug in a USB drive without permission, but not nice.

So take care, and by the way I agree with everything you've said about the RX10 as well, really a fantastic 1080p camera from what I've seen.

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post #49 of 3904 Old 01-09-2014, 09:10 PM
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Thanks Tom. Your info on the 4K monitors was not at all FUD, it was enlightening and something I was not aware of. It never occurred to me that I could potentially have an issue with any 4K monitor/TV, displaying my footage.

Regarding SOE, the distinction I'd make about the SOE relates, to me at least, to its impact on film. Personally I can't stand it. If I'm watching film, I want to see it as it was shot, not frame doubled or quadrupled. Giving film a 'video-look', just looks weird to me. I know some actually like it...go figure. But, when it comes to straight video that I shoot, I love the 'documentary', 'you are there' look. The more transparent the video, the happier I am.

That's what got me so jazzed (and much to my surprise a 'wow' from my wife! smile.gif) when I put the AX100 video up on the 64" plasma. Considering the YouTube compression and the wireless internet connection to the plasma, it was really stunning. I suspect you're used to this clarity having the equipment you do (damn you! wink.gif), but this was exactly the look I love. Color that was totally natural and clarity that was the best I've seen on my plasma...and this not even true 4K. eek.gif

Regarding shutter speeds on the AX100, other than knowing it has a dedicated shutter speed button, I have no idea either what speeds it will offer. Frankly I'll be surprised if it offers 1/40.

I'm really not sure about which 4K monitor to get, but I know I'll have to replace my video card for sure. Fortunately the editing program I use, Edius Pro 7, does do 4K, so I think I'm OK there.

Thanks again Tom!
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post #50 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Hands-on with Toshiba’s high-resolution 4K laptops :
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4K is everywhere at CES this year. 4K TVs. 4K monitors. 4K projectors. And now, in Toshiba's booth, some 4K PC laptops.
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/01/its-not-just-for-tvs-and-monitors-toshibas-laptops-are-going-4k-too/


Toshiba's Satellite P50t, the more consumer-oriented of its two 4K laptops.

BTW I see the 65" 4K UHD TV on Amazon that was $2,999 as late as December 27 is now down to $1,535 with free shipping today !
http://camelcamelcamel.com/Seiki-Digital-SE65UY04-65-Inch-Ultra/product/B00FJPO5O8


http://hd-report.com/2013/10/02/seiki-65-4k-tv-will-sell-for-3k-but-how-does-it-compare/
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post #51 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 10:01 AM
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Some good news for those that like total manual control. The AX100 does indeed have totally independent controls of gain, shutter & iris. They can all be adjusted independently of the other. This came from an attendee at CES who was playing with the camera.

I was also pleasantly surprised to hear that the VF pulls out and lifts up. smile.gif
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post #52 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 10:17 AM
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Hi
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That's what got me so jazzed (and much to my surprise a 'wow' from my wife! smile.gif) when I put the AX100 video up on the 64" plasma. Considering the YouTube compression and the wireless internet connection to the plasma, it was really stunning.

Which just proves 1080P you are watching now is no where near the level of quality and detail it can be, its a big industry rip off really. You still have the same YouTube compression of course with 4K and I would bet you will probably see little if any improvement watching that same footage on a 4K panel of the same dimensions. Basically to get real 1080P in all its glory we've had to wait to what amounts to little more than oversampling to 4K so enough detail survives the compression to resolve full 1080P.

Also don't forget these are carefully grafted demo's, make no mistake, by the time 4K is mainstream, what most people will be finally experiencing is something akin to 1080P as it should have been all along, only having to have had to replace all their equipment to get it. It will take 8K for us to experience 4K.mad.gif

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post #53 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Also don't forget these are carefully grafted demo's, make no mistake, by the time 4K is mainstream, what most people will be finally experiencing is some akin to 1080P as it should have been all along, only having to have had to replace all their equipment to get it. It will take 8K for us to experience 4K
Yep. It took at lest five years to fight with DVD-player manufacturers to fix deinterlacing and chroma issues to see what MPEG-2 SD is capable of. BD started off better, but broadcast only gets close to true HD when watching OTA with 15-16 Mbit/s. Netflix is measly 5-7 Mbit/s, YouTube is a joke. Sometimes this HD is no better than proper quality SD. Instead of switching broadcast to 1080p60 the industry is pushing 4K, which an average Joe will never have a chance to experience (4K BD movies? Or personal 4K video?)

4K makes sense for commercial movie production, but at home it will remain a fancy bragging topic for a long time.
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post #54 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 10:30 AM
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Hi
Which just proves 1080P you are watching now is no where near the level of quality and detail it can be, its a big industry rip off really. You still have the same YouTube compression of course with 4K and I would bet you will probably see little if any improvement watching that same footage on a 4K panel of the same dimensions. Basically to get real 1080P in all its glory we've had to wait to what amounts to little more than oversampling to 4K so enough detail survives the compression to resolve full 1080P.

Also don't forget these are carefully grafted demo's, make no mistake, by the time 4K is mainstream, what most people will be finally experiencing is something akin to 1080P as it should have been all along, only having to have had to replace all their equipment to get it. It will take 8K for us to experience 4K.mad.gif

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That's true Phil, but the original 4K footage from the cam will look significantly better on a 4K screen than on a 2K screen.

But I agree, they've taken the soul out of 2K over the years. Broadcast HD was so much better when it first came out and they weren't multicasting 3 or 4 channels in the same spectrum.
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post #55 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post

Hi
Which just proves 1080P you are watching now is no where near the level of quality and detail it can be, its a big industry rip off really. You still have the same YouTube compression of course with 4K and I would bet you will probably see little if any improvement watching that same footage on a 4K panel of the same dimensions. Basically to get real 1080P in all its glory we've had to wait to what amounts to little more than oversampling to 4K so enough detail survives the compression to resolve full 1080P.

Also don't forget these are carefully grafted demo's, make no mistake, by the time 4K is mainstream, what most people will be finally experiencing is something akin to 1080P as it should have been all along, only having to have had to replace all their equipment to get it. It will take 8K for us to experience 4K.mad.gif

Regards

Phil

Any 1080P sensor is not going to come anywhere close to real 1080P resolution due to debayering. IMO that is the main reason why these down sampled videos look much clearer on 1080P screens. You are getting full 1080P resolution with them, whereas the effective resolution of the cameras we currently use is more like 700 - 850P.
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post #56 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 01:04 PM
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That is is quite true that debayering reduces resolution but don't forget that most HD camcorders do not use or capture video using a sensor at a resolution of 1920x1080 where debayering would reduce resolution, but they oversample (often considerably) and then reduce down, in some cases camcorders are already capturing 4K resolutions and reducing it to 1080P so the resolution loss for debayering doesn't have an impact. Also in the case of my 3MOS camcorder which needs no debayering, it still falls short of what 1080P can achieve due to compression.

4K looks better than typical 1080P video we see on 1080P monitors simply because it carries more picture detail as it is relatively less compressed and essentially the oversampling compensates for the compression.

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post #57 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 01:50 PM
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That is not really true since most of the examples we see for 4K are YouTube media, which are very heavily compressed. Yet they are still have significantly higher resolution than native footage from most current 1080P camcorders.

Cameras with higher pixel counts in their sensors are not necessarily fully utilized, there is subsampling to keep the sensor within its thermal envelope. The higher pixel counts are normally used for stills in those cameras. Take the Canon G20 (and similar cameras) - there the sensor pixel count is 107% of 1080p, which is not enough to compensate for the effects of debayering. The extra pixels in that situation are used for software stabilization.
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post #58 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 01:52 PM
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Hi

That is is quite true that debayering reduces resolution but don't forget that most HD camcorders do not use or capture video using a sensor at a resolution of 1920x1080 where debayering would reduce resolution, but they oversample (often considerably) and then reduce down, in some cases camcorders are already capturing 4K resolutions and reducing it to 1080P so the resolution loss for debayering doesn't have an impact. Also in the case of my 3MOS camcorder which needs no debayering, it still falls short of what 1080P can achieve due to compression.

4K looks better than typical 1080P video we see on 1080P monitors simply because it carries more picture detail as it is relatively less compressed and essentially the oversampling compensates for the compression.

Regards

Phil

OK, if it is compression and debayering that are responsible for the relatively poor 1080p we see from cameras/camcorders, then RAW 1080 solves all that - RAW video gives you real 1080P without the need to downsample from higher resolutions (leaving aside its other advantages in color and dynamic range). Debayering of RAW video takes place on the computer (and hence can be tweaked to be much better than any camcorder chip), and you can choose whatever compression you like. 4K gives you only a resolution advantage over highly-compressed, poorly-debayered in-camera1080; RAW gives you that and more.

Btw, another destroyer of resolution is "noise reduction," which some camcorders apply with a heavy hand. NR deliberately reduces sharpness to blur the grain. RAW video has no NR; you apply as much as you want using, again, much more sophisticated computer programs to reduce noise than any camera has.
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post #59 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 06:14 PM
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^ Again Mark, the RAW advantages you state are all 'theoretical' in nature, IMO. I say that because I simply don't see those advantages in the myriad of RAW videos I've seen. As I've said before, despite these 'theoretical' advantages, I'll take the no muss, no bother, OOC look. We can tick off all of the pluses & minuses of RAW, but I simply don't see it in reality. I really don't. Color? Don't get me started. The best video I've yet seen on my HD display comes from the AX100.

More importantly, I'm not sure why we keep coming back to RAW in the AX100 thread. wink.gif Sometimes I feel as if I ventured in to a sales thread for RAW. You haven't morphed into my buddy thedest have you? biggrin.gif

Seriously though, as a friend, we have so many threads on RAW, BM, BMPCC, let's try to keep this (the only thread) to the new 4K camcorder, the AX100. That's what impresses me.
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post #60 of 3904 Old 01-10-2014, 06:19 PM
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It's to put in perspective the 4K enthusiasm - the number of pixels is just one dimension of video.

On your last point; you have put your finger on the rub: shooting RAW, one has to do all the things a camera does oneself using software on a computer. And it is not easy. So, as you say, in theory RAW has many advantages; in practice, one often will not see it.

Back to salivating over this wonderful new Sony 4K camcorder...
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