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post #1 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Part 1: The Cam



More to come, with different equipment.
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post #2 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 02:23 PM
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As always, nice work. Colors are great. It looks very good on my 1920x1080 screen. What NLE did you use?
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post #3 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

As always, nice work. Colors are great. It looks very good on my 1920x1080 screen. What NLE did you use?

Thanks. In this case Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13. Easy to use and works with and outputs 4K easily. Edited and created on my travel Celeron-powered laptop. $649 4K camera, $249 laptop and $79 editor. Travel-friendly and cheap 4K outfit.
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post #4 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Thanks. In this case Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13. Easy to use and works with and outputs 4K easily. Edited and created on my travel Celeron-powered laptop. $649 4K camera, $249 laptop and $79 editor. Travel-friendly and cheap 4K outfit.
Now that I'm off the road for a few months, I have a Galaxy S5 on my short list. If it gets to the top of the list, it will be my first smartphone.

There is nothing shabby about what you get out of your under $1K travel kit. I was camping in Yellowstone last week next to a guy with what might have been a $500K kit, including a nice truck. I was so impressed I started a thread! What he has on YouTube and Vimeo is certainly impressive, but it is not 500 times better!

Where is the next trip?

Bill
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post #5 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bsprague View Post

Now that I'm off the road for a few months, I have a Galaxy S5 on my short list. If it gets to the top of the list, it will be my first smartphone.

There is nothing shabby about what you get out of your under $1K travel kit. I was camping in Yellowstone last week next to a guy with what might have been a $500K kit, including a nice truck. I was so impressed I started a thread! What he has on YouTube and Vimeo is certainly impressive, but it is not 500 times better!

Where is the next trip?

Bill

Coming up: Chicago, Hong Kong, Beijing, Guangzhou, Cambridge, MA.
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post #6 of 33 Old 05-25-2014, 08:03 PM
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Coming up: Chicago, Hong Kong, Beijing, Guangzhou, Cambridge, MA.
What fun! You need someone to carry the bags while you do the work?
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post #7 of 33 Old 05-26-2014, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Thanks. In this case Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13. Easy to use and works with and outputs 4K .

markr041,

of the two sony movie platinum 13 and sony vegas pro. which do you find better?

I now used sony movie platinum 11 for years now. and look like platinum 13 comes with different interface. it is now called 'make movies' rather than
'render as' and other new interface I am not familiar with.

note: I am preparing to buy the sony ax100. just making sure software all set before the camcorder.

thanks in advance
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post #8 of 33 Old 05-26-2014, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spyker1212 View Post

markr041,

of the two sony movie platinum 13 and sony vegas pro. which do you find better?

I now used sony movie platinum 11 for years now. and look like platinum 13 comes with different interface. it is now called 'make movies' rather than
'render as' and other new interface I am not familiar with.

note: I am preparing to buy the sony ax100. just making sure software all set before the camcorder.

thanks in advance

Platinum 13 comes free with the AX100, so you will get a chance to try it. I did not find the somewhat new interface bothersome, and in fact some things are easier than Vegas Pro because of it. It has the exact same XAVC S codec and options. 'Render as' is indeed 'Make movie', but it ends up being the same, with familiar options. You can see if you run into any limitations.
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post #9 of 33 Old 05-26-2014, 07:22 AM
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Any ideas,the vimeo film plays fine strait from vimeo,but when its downpoaded the the download looks much worse like looking at a film with very bad M & A but i know its not on the actual film because playing the film strait from vimeo is fine.
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post #10 of 33 Old 05-26-2014, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flintyplus View Post

Any ideas,the vimeo film plays fine strait from vimeo,but when its downpoaded the the download looks much worse like looking at a film with very bad M & A but i know its not on the actual film because playing the film strait from vimeo is fine.

What software are you using to play the video (which is over 100 Mbps, btw)?
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post #11 of 33 Old 05-26-2014, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

What software are you using to play the video (which is over 100 Mbps, btw)?
Vimeo films download to my PC drive and i just play them with windows media player,4k films seem to play fine IE Kens zoo and the grand rapids film,but they are less Mbps i guess.
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post #12 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 04:15 AM
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I'm away, so I can't see or test Mark's videos, but I'm assuming if Mark is talking about 100mbps, he's talking about GH4 videos. In general, it has always been my experience that Panasonic videos are a bit tougher to play than Sony or Canon videos. This was true for me even for AVCHD.

AX100 videos will be no more than 60mbps and Galaxy S5 less than that. So these will be easier to play.
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post #13 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 04:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I'm away, so I can't see or test Mark's videos, but I'm assuming if Mark is talking about 100mbps, he's talking about GH4 videos. In general, it has always been my experience that Panasonic videos are a bit tougher to play than Sony or Canon videos. This was true for me even for AVCHD.

AX100 videos will be no more than 60mbps and Galaxy S5 less than that. So these will be easier to play.

Sony Vegas Pro and Sony Movie Studio Platinum produce 100+ Mbps 4K videos (XAVC S) no matter what the bitrate of the input video. The uploaded Galaxy 4K video is 106 Mbps even though the camera produces 50-60 Mbps clips. There is no bitrate choice with this codec in the Sony editors, and I have contacted Sony about this and they acknowledge the issue that more than doubling the bitrate in some cases from the originals accomplishes little.

I will be posting a GH4 4K video soon of Cambridge; it too will be over 100 Mbps.

However, I can play the 106 Mbps edited Samsung Galaxy 4K video with no problems on my $249 Celeron-equipped laptop.
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post #14 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 06:18 AM
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As i said playing the film in HD mode in vimeo is fine,its the downloaded film that has the effects i mentioned.
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post #15 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

Part 1: The Cam



More to come, with different equipment.

Hi Mark.

 

You may want to be careful, you are not editing at the same speed as your footage, or you are exporting at the wrong frame rate. If you take a look at the FPS of your source clip properties, i think you will find that your editing timeline is a different FPS.

 

Cheers,

Dave.

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post #16 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark.

You may want to be careful, you are not editing at the same speed as your footage, or you are exporting at the wrong frame rate. If you take a look at the FPS of your source clip properties, i think you will find that your editing timeline is a different FPS.

Cheers,
Dave.

How do *you* know what the original clip frame rates are? In any case, you have pointed out a well-known issue with cell-phone video - the frame rates are in fact not constant and locked. They are around 29.97 fps for most clips. The video was exported at a constant 29.97 (NTSC).
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post #17 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 10:59 AM
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How do *you* know what the original clip frame rates are? In any case, you have pointed out a well-known issue with cell-phone video - the frame rates are in fact not constant and locked. They are around 29.97 fps for most clips. The video was exported at a constant 29.97 (NTSC).

Your video has frame blending going on, which is a result of the source frame rate not being the same as the project frame rate.
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post #18 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Your video has frame blending going on, which is a result of the source frame rate not being the same as the project frame rate.

Necessary when the originals have variable frame rates. This should not create playback problems.
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post #19 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 04:04 PM
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Necessary when the originals have variable frame rates. This should not create playback problems.

It does create problems during playback it must do because I noticed it. I would also assume that this is the reason why you don't do any pan movements. A simple test is to import your clip into a 29.97 timeline and do single frame advancement, and you will notice the frame blending.

You could try and find an app that allows fixed FPS recording.

BTW. I am only trying to help you from making fundamental editing mistakes.
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post #20 of 33 Old 05-27-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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It does create problems during playback it must do because I noticed it. I would also assume that this is the reason why you don't do any pan movements. A simple test is to import your clip into a 29.97 timeline and do single frame advancement, and you will notice the frame blending.

You could try and find an app that allows fixed FPS recording.

BTW. I am only trying to help you from making fundamental editing mistakes.

Assuming I do not know what I am doing is not a helpful attitude. The clips are variable FP, as I am well-aware. The timeline is fixed FP. Rather than "helping" me not make what you assume incorrectly to be "fundamental" errors, how about a suggestion for a better method in an editor for dealing with variable fps than frame blending? I agree that the effect is not ideal; is there a better method?.

I have no problem playing the video (WMP), however. So, maybe you are making some error in your playback? Perhaps we can help you avoid the mistakes you must be making...

And there is no app that allows 4K video with constant frame rate on Android. I had looked. Did you find one?
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post #21 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 01:36 AM
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Assuming I do not know what I am doing is not a helpful attitude. The clips are variable FP, as I am well-aware. The timeline is fixed FP. Rather than "helping" me not make what you assume incorrectly to be "fundamental" errors, how about a suggestion for a better method in an editor for dealing with variable fps than frame blending? I agree that the effect is not ideal; is there a better method?.

I have no problem playing the video (WMP), however. So, maybe you are making some error in your playback? Perhaps we can help you avoid the mistakes you must be making...

And there is no app that allows 4K video with constant frame rate on Android. I had looked. Did you find one?

You obviously don't understand the processing too well, let me help you. As soon as you get something wrong in the edit, for instance, mismatched frame rates between source and destination/output. It is then carried as a perminent rendered error.

So. You having no problem playing the video, is unfortunately you not being experienced enough to see the problem.

Now, when you say "Perhaps we can help you avoid the mistakes you must be making..." I assume that's the royal we, as in, you? But as anyone can clearly see, I don't need help, especially with what you are suggesting I need help with, as it's already proven that your video has problems.

I shoot loads of stuff on iPhone and don't have this issue. Maybe you haven't looked properly into ways for making proper edited footage from your 4K source material. It may help you to look out for software that does smart rendering, or something that does not re-encode. Now, while this won't give you the same flexibility as a full NLE solution, it will allow you to truncate and stitch files into one, without rendering an incorrect frame rate that has frame blending.

BTW. How are you getting on with pan shots? How does VFR look when connecting your footage direct to a TV? Does your TV lock to the VFR, or does it try to fix to one frequency and frame blend? How does it look when converting a source clip via something like Vimeo or YouTube, or an offline encoder?

Now, before you reply, take a deep breath first. I have noticed that you have tried to correct me on a number of posts, but I didn't need correcting and you have made a number of basic errors in your assumptions that you were correct. You may want to double check first, that whatever you believe to be correct is actually correct, before posting anything to do with correcting someone else.
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post #22 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 02:33 AM
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Don't you just LOVE a HISSY-FIT!!:D 

 

I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that we were here to HELP each other.:confused: When experts get together there is often disagreement.

 

Definition of "Expert", n, (X-spurt):- X=the unknown quantity: Spurt= a large drip.

 

For us normal folk this may be worth remembering.

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post #23 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 02:54 AM
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Don't you just LOVE a HISSY-FIT!!biggrin.gif  

I was under the (obviously mistaken) impression that we were here to HELP each other.confused.gif  When experts get together there is often disagreement.

Definition of "Expert", n, (X-spurt):- X=the unknown quantity: Spurt= a large drip.

For us normal folk this may be worth remembering.

Who said they were an expert?
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post #24 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 03:04 AM - Thread Starter
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You obviously don't understand the processing too well, let me help you. As soon as you get something wrong in the edit, for instance, mismatched frame rates between source and destination/output. It is then carried as a perminent rendered error.

So. You having no problem playing the video, is unfortunately you not being experienced enough to see the problem.

Now, when you say "Perhaps we can help you avoid the mistakes you must be making..." I assume that's the royal we, as in, you? But as anyone can clearly see, I don't need help, especially with what you are suggesting I need help with, as it's already proven that your video has problems.

I shoot loads of stuff on iPhone and don't have this issue. Maybe you haven't looked properly into ways for making proper edited footage from your 4K source material. It may help you to look out for software that does smart rendering, or something that does not re-encode. Now, while this won't give you the same flexibility as a full NLE solution, it will allow you to truncate and stitch files into one, without rendering an incorrect frame rate that has frame blending.

BTW. How are you getting on with pan shots? How does VFR look when connecting your footage direct to a TV? Does your TV lock to the VFR, or does it try to fix to one frequency and frame blend? How does it look when converting a source clip via something like Vimeo or YouTube, or an offline encoder?

Now, before you reply, take a deep breath first. I have noticed that you have tried to correct me on a number of posts, but I didn't need correcting and you have made a number of basic errors in your assumptions that you were correct. You may want to double check first, that whatever you believe to be correct is actually correct, before posting anything to do with correcting someone else.

You make suggestions without any content.

Smart rendering: I have software that does smart rendering - Power Director 12; it does not do smart rendering correctly, resulting in glitches. Smart Renderer 4; it cannot smart render 4K video. There are no editing software packages that smart render 4K files from the GH4, the Galaxy S 5, or the Sony AX100. You obviously have no experience using smart rendering or you would have known this. You obviously have not shot any 4K video either.

Does the iPhone shoot constant frame rates, or variable? What software do you use to edit the clips? If it does variable, what technique do you use to avoid frame blending? How about some actually useful advice?
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post #25 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 05:41 AM
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You make suggestions without any content.

Smart rendering: I have software that does smart rendering - Power Director 12; it does not do smart rendering correctly, resulting in glitches. Smart Renderer 4; it cannot smart render 4K video. There are no editing software packages that smart render 4K files from the GH4, the Galaxy S 5, or the Sony AX100. You obviously have no experience using smart rendering or you would have known this. You obviously have not shot any 4K video either.

Does the iPhone shoot constant frame rates, or variable? What software do you use to edit the clips? If it does variable, what technique do you use to avoid frame blending? How about some actually useful advice?

You are now starting to look very ignorant and arrogant. You are making huge general assumptions about my understanding of production, without even asking me anything about my experience.

Maybe it helps you to think that I don't shoot 4K or have no experience in smart rendering.

I have given you useful advice, but you just want to ignore it and I have also posted useful advice elsewhere on this forum.

Just because a person does not know every single software package available, is no justification to say that they obviously have no experience with such things. That really is a silly and child like thing to say, especially coming from you, as you obviously are unaware of certain software or technology to do with what you are talking about. But I am not assuming that you obviously have no experience, just because you don't know of a certain product.
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post #26 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 06:12 AM - Thread Starter
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You are now starting to look very ignorant and arrogant. You are making huge general assumptions about my understanding of production, without even asking me anything about my experience.

Maybe it helps you to think that I don't shoot 4K or have no experience in smart rendering.

I have given you useful advice, but you just want to ignore it and I have also posted useful advice elsewhere on this forum.

Just because a person does not know every single software package available, is no justification to say that they obviously have no experience with such things. That really is a silly and child like thing to say, especially coming from you, as you obviously are unaware of certain software or technology to do with what you are talking about. But I am not assuming that you obviously have no experience, just because you don't know of a certain product.

Your advice is not useful, because it is not specific.

I have asked you specific questions, and you still do not answer: What software technique other than frame blending is better for variable frame rates? Does the iPhone shoot variable frame rates? What smart rendering software exactly deals correctly with 4K vfr video? You do not answer questions, you just throw out stuff, some of which you know evidently little about (smart rendering for 4K videos).

You insinuate you have shot and edited 4K. What experience do you have smart rendering that is relevant for 4K shooting? What experience do you have dealing with variable frame rates in editing (even non-4K) that will help us? I do want to know, and that will help others.
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post #27 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 07:15 AM
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Your advice is not useful, because it is not specific.

I have asked you specific questions, and you still do not answer: What software technique other than frame blending is better for variable frame rates? Does the iPhone shoot variable frame rates? What smart rendering software exactly deals correctly with 4K vfr video? You do not answer questions, you just throw out stuff, some of which you know evidently little about (smart rendering for 4K videos).

You insinuate you have shot and edited 4K. What experience do you have smart rendering that is relevant for 4K shooting? What experience do you have dealing with variable frame rates in editing (even non-4K) that will help us? I do want to know, and that will help others.

You say that there is nothing to Smart Render 4K AX100 clips, but you are wrong. You may want to visit this site and it may give you some pointers to other video formats, it may even help with your VFR footage?

 

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/index.html

 

To be clear, I wasn't insinuating, I am very experienced in most forms of audio and video post and have been doing it for nearly 30 years. While I am not a DP, I also do a lot of shooting and know more than most about the the technologies of digital filming. I own a number of recording systems from SD upto UHD and am experienced with resolutions beyond 4K. And also own a couple of NLE systems that range from realtime online HD up to the same in 4K, using both dedicated DSP and GPU acceleration as well software only solutions.

 

Maybe this is enough information to show that you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions that I lack certain skills.

 

As for the iphone, it is similar to your format, natively it is VFR. I use an app that can force a fixed frame rate. Even without the source correction it is still possible to force a file to be read at a frame rate other than what it was recorded at, in certain instances this can be done with VFR material.

 

I dare say that we both use different approaches and equipment/software to shoot and edit with. So I am quite sure I may not know all about the stuff you use, as you me, but this doesn't mean that one of us doesn't know what they are talking about.

 

If you post me a native file, I may be able to help you with a workflow that will give you a fixed frame rate. 

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post #28 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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You say that there is nothing to Smart Render 4K AX100 clips, but you are wrong. You may want to visit this site and it may give you some pointers to other video formats, it may even help with your VFR footage?

http://tmpgenc.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/index.html

To be clear, I wasn't insinuating, I am very experienced in most forms of audio and video post and have been doing it for nearly 30 years. While I am not a DP, I also do a lot of shooting and know more than most about the the technologies of digital filming. I own a number of recording systems from SD upto UHD and am experienced with resolutions beyond 4K. And also own a couple of NLE systems that range from realtime online HD up to the same in 4K, using both dedicated DSP and GPU acceleration as well software only solutions.

Maybe this is enough information to show that you were incorrect in your earlier assumptions that I lack certain skills.

As for the iphone, it is similar to your format, natively it is VFR. I use an app that can force a fixed frame rate. Even without the source correction it is still possible to force a file to be read at a frame rate other than what it was recorded at, in certain instances this can be done with VFR material.

I dare say that we both use different approaches and equipment/software to shoot and edit with. So I am quite sure I may not know all about the stuff you use, as you me, but this doesn't mean that one of us doesn't know what they are talking about.

If you post me a native file, I may be able to help you with a workflow that will give you a fixed frame rate. 

Thanks for the info. I guessed you have a lot of video experience, but not a lot with any of the new stuff out there for consumers. I am sure that both of use can learn from each other.

But please, just refrain from saying "You are wrong." It is not only aggressive, it makes you look bad. In this case, you really do not know what is out there. I have been searching for smart render software for years. And that software you linked me too is exactly the software I use to produce scores of HD videos as I told you (Smart Renderer 4). It does NOT work for 4K videos; I tried it with AX100 and GH4 and Samsung Galaxy S5 videos. No go: It thinks that Samsung clips at different frame rates are not identical, and thus does not smart render them. The software crashes when it uses GH4 clips (on a machines with 12 GBs of RAM), and the software rejects certain AX100 clips for reasons no one has figured out.There is nothing out there. As I said, Power Director 12 produces glitches in the resulting video (GH4 4K).

Sony Vegas does smart render MXP 4K files, but not the AVC files from the AX100 or the GH4 or the Samsung.

"it is still possible to force a file to be read at a frame rate other than what it was recorded at, in certain instances this can be done with VFR material." I do not understand this for editing. Frame blending is the default to produce a constant frame rate output in rendering. Project settings require one frame rate also. So, what is the alternative?

Thanks for the offer to further help on vfr. Btw, is the frame rate constant within a clip and just varies across clips? Or does the fr vary even within a clip on cell phones?
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post #29 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 08:02 AM
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Thanks for the info. I guessed you have a lot of video experience, but not a lot with any of the new stuff out there for consumers. I am sure that both of use can learn from each other.
 
I am sure that is correct, and I am always up for learning.

That software you linked me too is exactly the software I use to produce scores of HD videos as I told you (Smart Renderer 4). It does NOT work for 4K videos; I tried it with AX100 and GH4 and Samsung Galaxy S5 videos. No go: It thinks that Samsung clips at different frame rates are not identical, and thus does not smart render them. The software crashes when it uses GH4 clips (on a machines with 12 GBS of RAM), and the software rejects certain AX100 clips for reasons no one has figured out.There is nothing out there. As I said, Power Director 12 produces glitches in the resulting video (GH4 4K).
 
You obviously have experience with certain formats that proves SR4 does not work with everything. But I have had different results with the AX100 and stuff like GoPro etc. Infact, it was another AX100 user who recommended it, in order to do simple stitching and truncation. The issue I have with it is that it repacks it into a container that most decoders/players/NLEs wouldn't expect to see the codec in, and consequently refuse to play it.

Sony Vegas does smart render MXP 4K files, but not the AVC files from the AX100 or the GH4 or the Samsung.
 
​I don't use Vegas, but it seems a pain that even Sony don't Smart Render their own XAVCS codec, assuming that by MXP you mean MXF and XAVC. I kind of understand that between their inter and intra codecs, that one is way easier to smart render. But when others are smart rendering long gop codecs, you would expect Sony to be doing it as well. I have a sneaky suspicion that Sony's XAVC S, isn't really that much different than standard 5.1 H264, unlike XAVC, which seems more Sony than most other implementations of H264. 

"it is still possible to force a file to be read at a frame rate other than what it was recorded at, in certain instances this can be done with VFR material." I do not understand this for editing. Frame blending is the default to produce a constant frame rate output in rendering. Project settings require one frame rate also. So, what is the alternative?
 
For editing, this is the most important place to apply the fixed Frame Rate, or correction. You are right that frame blending is the default when the clip and timeline mismatch. But this is what is causing the ghosting, and fixing the frame rate at the edit, if possible, is what will get shut of the blending. The terminology is well varied for this process, terms like conform are used. So for want of a better term, and I am not an Avid fan BTW, conforming your bin content to the timeline is the best way, if possible. And as long as any correction is not too far from the original speed, such as 23.976 to 24 or even 25, there shouldn't really be too many other knock on effects. 
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post #30 of 33 Old 05-28-2014, 08:14 AM
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But please, just refrain from saying "You are wrong." It is not only aggressive, it makes you look bad. In this case, you really do not know what is out there. I have been searching for smart render software for years.

 

Now that seems a bit off, adding this extra line after the fact, and very much Pot and Kettle.

 

You were wrong in the instance i was referring to. And you didn't seem to have any problem pointing the same to me when you thought i was wrong.

 

If you want to talk about aggressive, than go back and look at your posts. Saying I obviously didn't know what i was talking about, is very aggressive.

 

So that extra line you added was very unnecessary and hypocritical.

 

If you want to carry on conversing on a pleasant level, then fine. But if you simple want to pick at things and chastise, then you will get no further response from me.

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