So how does the A7RII look in the real world? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 148 Old 11-17-2015, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
Ken, it's funny that DPR used video comparisons with the Canon 5DS and Nikon D810 instead of the NX1 and GH4 but I guess they wanted to compare full frame cameras. Here on this forum we never discuss the 5DS or D810 .
Very true, Joe.
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post #122 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 08:22 AM
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I have two major issues with Sony cameras. Extreme disregard for their existing customer base and lack of adequate native lenses.

Sony come out with new bodies far too frequently. They also produce bodies that are far too similar to each other and withhold certain features from one to make the other more marketable. The A7Rii and A7Sii are prime examples of this. Instead of offering owners of the A7Rii features such as Slog3, 120 fps @1080p or live display Luts, which they could easily have done, they expect us to spend another $3000 to purchase these features at the cost of resolution and AF capabilities.

The more serious issue with Sony E-Mount cameras, IMO, is the lack of adequate native lenses. It is true that you can use almost any lens on the A7Ri with adapters but at the cost of one of the best AF systems available. The current crop of Sony zooms are not up to par with the competition and, although they produce some excellent primes, the 35mm and 55mm are good examples, the range is still limited.

Imagine an A7rii with Slog3, 120 fps @1080p , a full range of primes and excellent native zoom lenses equivalent to Canon's 24- 70 USM Mark II. Now that would be a camera to be reckoned with.
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post #123 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Still, when assessing the entire package, picture quality, focusing ability in video mode, low light capabilities etc., IMO they're still the best game in town.

Not too many people will own both bodies and, frankly, Slog3 is certainly no rationale for me to have an extra body. Personally I think Sony has done an outstanding job with their newest cameras and I would not accuse them of 'extreme disregard for their existing customer base'. IMO, that's a bit over the top.

There are certainly other manufacturers other than Sony if they so annoy you, but good luck finding the Canons & Nikons of the world with these 4K capabilities. Each to his own, but with your 'issues', these Sonys are still, as almost all of the media agrees, cameras to be reckoned with.
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post #124 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 09:55 AM
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Still, when assessing the entire package, picture quality, focusing ability in video mode, low light capabilities etc., IMO they're still the best game in town.

Not too many people will own both bodies and, frankly, Slog3 is certainly no rationale for me to have an extra body. Personally I think Sony has done an outstanding job with their newest cameras and I would not accuse them of 'extreme disregard for their existing customer base'. IMO, that's a bit over the top.

There are certainly other manufacturers other than Sony if they so annoy you, but good luck finding the Canons & Nikons of the world with these 4K capabilities. Each to his own, but with your 'issues', these Sonys are still, as almost all of the media agrees, cameras to be reckoned with.
I think you missed one of the points of my post. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for Sony to not offer Slog3, or Live Display Luts in a firmware upgrade to A7Rii owners. The fact they choose not to is what makes them such a poor company when it comes to customer support. Simply google Sony customer support satisfaction and you will see many examples of poor support. Contrast this with a company like Fuji. If you are an owner of an A7Rii and pay over $3000 for a camera body, I don't see how this would not "annoy" you. Given your comments about "my issues" you are obviously not a professional and don't understand or appreciate how important manufacturer support is. Most knowledgeable reviewers agree that, although this camera has some outstanding technology, it is not for the professional photographer/videographer.
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post #125 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuck View Post
I have two major issues with Sony cameras. Extreme disregard for their existing customer base and lack of adequate native lenses.

Sony come out with new bodies far too frequently. They also produce bodies that are far too similar to each other and withhold certain features from one to make the other more marketable. The A7Rii and A7Sii are prime examples of this. Instead of offering owners of the A7Rii features such as Slog3, 120 fps @1080p or live display Luts, which they could easily have done, they expect us to spend another $3000 to purchase these features at the cost of resolution and AF capabilities.

The more serious issue with Sony E-Mount cameras, IMO, is the lack of adequate native lenses. It is true that you can use almost any lens on the A7Ri with adapters but at the cost of one of the best AF systems available. The current crop of Sony zooms are not up to par with the competition and, although they produce some excellent primes, the 35mm and 55mm are good examples, the range is still limited.

Imagine an A7rii with Slog3, 120 fps @1080p , a full range of primes and excellent native zoom lenses equivalent to Canon's 24- 70 USM Mark II. Now that would be a camera to be reckoned with.
When I purchased my full frame Sony VG900 camcorder with E mount in 2012 there was no full frame E mount lenses available but today there are over 50 full frame E mount lenses shown on B&H.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...428+3999800997
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search...151+4190025432
http://briansmith.com/sony-a7-a7r-a7s-lens-guide/


All camera companies have a myriad of cameras in APS-C and full frame with a myriad of specs but at least Sony has more choices than Canon or Nikon for video use under $7K with 4K. The A7s II is for full frame 4K video or low light 12mp still and the A7r II is for both 4K video in APS-C or full frame and 42mp stills and crop sensor APS-C stills. The A7 II is for entry level 24mp full frame still and 1080p video. The FS5 and FS7 4K E mount camcorders have the best specs in their price class.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._super_35.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...inema_eos.html
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post #126 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
When I purchased my full frame Sony VG900 camcorder with E mount in 2012 there was no full frame E mount lenses available but today there are over 50 full frame E mount lenses shown on B&H.
Sony may have 50 E-Mount lenses but unfortunately only a few of them are acceptable for pro use.


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All camera companies have a myriad of cameras in APS-C and full frame with a myriad of specs but at least Sony has more choices than Canon or Nikon for video use under $7K with 4K. The A7s II is for full frame 4K video or low light 12mp still and the A7r II is for both 4K video in APS-C or full frame and 42mp stills and crop sensor APS-C stills. The A7 II is for entry level 24mp full frame still and 1080p video. The FS5 and FS7 4K E mount camcorders have the best specs in their price class.
I agree with you that several manufacturers make a myriad of cameras with different specs but they don't expect their customers to buy one of each. Differentiating cameras based on different specs such as sensor size or resolution is one thing but differentiating models based on useful features is another. The only explanation for Sony withholding features from A7Rii owners such as SLog3 and Live Display Luts is to differentiate the models, which suggests they expect users who want all of these features to buy both. These cameras are tools, at a price point one would expect to be directed at professionals. If I needed a specialized tool for extreme low light situations and FF video without binning then I would buy an A7Sii, otherwise I would buy the more versatile A7Rii. A responsible company should provide the professional with all features reasonably available to make those tools as good as possible. It is senseless to not provide these features on both cameras.
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post #127 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 03:47 PM
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post #128 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jogiba View Post
None of these lenses are made by Sony and they are completely inappropriate for a body such as the A7Rii because of their cost and size. But more importantly none will utilize the incredible AF capabilities of the A7Rii/A7Sii for video.

The only reason my company would use a DSLR or mirrorless camera for video is because of its compact size. Having the ability to film in remote locations miles into the bush or at the top of a mountain at the quality these cameras are capable of is extremely attractive. Similarly, the ability to run and gun or shoot a wedding with the ability to shoot usable footage with autofocus is equally attractive. Sony does not offer nearly enough professional grade lenses to keep up with their bodies' capabilities. Maybe this will change in the future.
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post #129 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 04:29 PM
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Really ?
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post #130 of 148 Old 11-18-2015, 06:14 PM
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Knuck, I agree with you about the omission of the live LUTs display on the A7RII but not so sure if S-log 3 would be of much use on the camera.

On the A7SII this latest log profile has already showed the limits of an extreme gamma curve, noisy shadows, banding in the highlight areas (such as sky)near the upper exposure limit and what I think is probably the clearest example of this is the tradeoff between color accuracy and DR in the graded footage. It is borderline useable on the A7SII only because of the camera's unmatched sensitivity, at least 2-3 stops over that of the A7RII and even more in the latter's APS-C crop mode. Sony have pushed it as far as it goes at 8-bit and 4:2:0. It would undoubtedly does great if it could record in 12-bit raw or 4:4:4 like what the BMCC does. And that camera's sensor sensitivity is nowhere near that on the A7SII. You can compress literally the daylight out of any high contrast scenes but it is certainly no free lunch. The 8 bit depth and poor color sampling of difficult colors such as reds and blues will just manifest themselves when you stretch it up in post.

Agreed with you also on Sony's market mentality in general. As they have been blanketing the full frame video market with their numerous A-series cameras, they must be sensing they are nearing the monopoly of this market. Just look around, a Leica?, next Panasonic? Canon 1DC?, these are either weak or non-existent competitors. So it's no surprise if they can almost decide by themselves what to put on which camera and what not to.
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post #131 of 148 Old 11-19-2015, 09:22 AM - Thread Starter
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I think you missed one of the points of my post. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for Sony to not offer Slog3, or Live Display Luts in a firmware upgrade to A7Rii owners. The fact they choose not to is what makes them such a poor company when it comes to customer support. Simply google Sony customer support satisfaction and you will see many examples of poor support. Contrast this with a company like Fuji. If you are an owner of an A7Rii and pay over $3000 for a camera body, I don't see how this would not "annoy" you. Given your comments about "my issues" you are obviously not a professional and don't understand or appreciate how important manufacturer support is. Most knowledgeable reviewers agree that, although this camera has some outstanding technology, it is not for the professional photographer/videographer.
Because I don't use Slog3, does not mean I'm 'not a professional'. Please, don't play that condescending game, it's absurd.

Further, the fact that you have nothing good to say about Sony or their cameras, leads one to question why you're even posting here? Why not go to the forums that interest you? Sony doesn't apparently fall into that category. Nothing constructive here.
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post #132 of 148 Old 11-25-2015, 04:41 AM
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Video Field Test: Theron Humphrey w/ Sony A7R II


http://www.dpreview.com/articles/227...in-marfa-texas
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post #133 of 148 Old 11-30-2015, 05:14 PM
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I sent my A7sII back

The A7s suits my shooting better.

I have an external 4k recorder (7Q+)
The DownRes 1080P30 is better than anything recorded internally by the A7sII.
There is no time limit or overheating (I use a dummy battery with the A7s for three hours of Video). It did not work so well on the A7sII.

Everything I shoot is from a TriPod. I do not use image stabilization
I do not use a Sony to shoot hand held stills.

The main reason I bought the A7sII was for 1080P120.
It is unusable full of moire in low light due to the 2.2 crop instead of using the full sensor width.
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post #134 of 148 Old 12-16-2015, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony A7Rii at Rockefeller Center

See the sights & sounds of Rockefeller Center during the holidays, including 2 surprise marriage proposals on the ice, the taping of a SNL commercial with Tina Fey & Amy Poehler and more.



Here's the Vimeo version, but unfortunately, for whatever reason, 4K streaming is still unavailable for me. Of course 4K downloads are always available.

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post #135 of 148 Old 12-16-2015, 05:22 PM
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See the sights & sounds of Rockefeller Center during the holidays, including 2 surprise marriage proposals on the ice, the taping of a SNL commercial with Tina Fey & Amy Poehler and more.
Thanks for the visit to Rock Center. I've only been there once! From a Seattle suburb, it is like going to a foreign country. I use a Samsung HD TV/Computer Monitor combo for most Vimeo and YouTube viewing. Your footage is wonderful on it.

I may know about two things when it comes to video. One is that picture quality coming from the cameras talked about here for the last couple of years is very good. The second is that it makes no sense to have such massive equipment for a simple commercial. How long will it be for "pros" to become comfortable with smaller stuff?

Bill
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post #136 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 01:05 AM
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Ah, I saw quite a few people taking portrait videos, or was it just for stills? Forget about HD, UHD or Cinema DCI, 9:16 rules!
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post #137 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the visit to Rock Center. I've only been there once! From a Seattle suburb, it is like going to a foreign country. I use a Samsung HD TV/Computer Monitor combo for most Vimeo and YouTube viewing. Your footage is wonderful on it.

I may know about two things when it comes to video. One is that picture quality coming from the cameras talked about here for the last couple of years is very good. The second is that it makes no sense to have such massive equipment for a simple commercial. How long will it be for "pros" to become comfortable with smaller stuff?

Bill
Thanks Bill. Too bad you can't watch in UHD, that's really spectacular. I was fully expecting the 4K streaming to work on this video given what you experienced with your last video. But no such luck.

This was my first video edited with FCP X. I'm back to enjoying editing after Edius. Although PD was certainly capable and usable, it was nonetheless awkward to use. FCP X is a true joy to use once you get past the learning curve. I find it produces a nicer encode at a bitrate in the mid 60s than I was getting with 100mbs in PD14.

Yes, that commercial, with all the equipment, took well over an hour for what was probably a 10 second spot. You'd be amazed at how many takes they went through and what appeared to be mid-stream script revisions. However that's typical in their business. I have 4X the footage that I wound up with in the final edit and I think I may have still spent too much time with it in that edit.

P&S, yes, mostly stills from what I saw and mostly smartphones.
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post #138 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 08:55 AM
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Cool video Ken.
You should do an edit with just the SNL part. Would probably be popular.

Im with you on FCPX as well. Render speeds are insane imo.
Im finishing one last project in Premiere. After that I will be strictly Resolve + FCPX.
And buy a month of After Effects when needed.

https://youtu.be/4rp-Q7i2nEs
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post #139 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Mattias.

Regarding FCP X, yup! Frankly I've never used an editor that's so enjoyable and, as you say, so fast. Rendering times that are significantly better than real-time with results that look better at lower bit rates than other editors I've used at higher bit rates! Can't beat that. I've done A/Bs with ProRes vs the default H264 and the results are so close, I can't see the need for the huge files. To my eye the default H264 is visually lossless. Perhaps for some professional applications, ProRes might be the way to go, but otherwise...

The incredibly smooth scrubbing of both the timeline clips as well as clips in the bin, are a real pleasure. The program handles 4K like it's "SD" in terms of how easily it reacts to inputs.

It's a deep program, so I'm still learning.
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post #140 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 09:56 AM
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Thanks Mattias.

Regarding FCP X, yup! Frankly I've never used an editor that's so enjoyable and, as you say, so fast. Rendering times that are significantly better than real-time with results that look better at lower bit rates than other editors I've used at higher bit rates! Can't beat that. I've done A/Bs with ProRes vs the default H264 and the results are so close, I can't see the need for the huge files. To my eye the default H264 is visually lossless. Perhaps for some professional applications, ProRes might be the way to go, but otherwise...

The incredibly smooth scrubbing of both the timeline clips as well as clips in the bin, are a real pleasure. The program handles 4K like it's "SD" in terms of how easily it reacts to inputs.

It's a deep program, so I'm still learning.
Ken,

Glad to see that you have switched to FCP X for editing your 4K video. I enjoyed watching your 4K Rockefeller Center video on my Asus 32 in. 4K monitor. It was splendid!

I have been using FCP X now for more than 3 years, and I have also used PD, Sony Vegas, Edius, and Adobe's Premiere Pro CC 2015. I find FCP X to be the easiest, fastest, and most powerful of any of these editors, although I do like the fact that in the latest version of Premiere Pro I can bring in my h.265 clips from my Samsung NX-1directly without having to convert them to another format.

If you ever really want to delve further into FCP X (and their is a lot to learn about this editor) I find the training from Ripple Training to be absolutely outstanding and a terrific bargain to boot.

Merry Christmas and thanks for another fine video.

Tom
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post #141 of 148 Old 12-17-2015, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom, thanks much.

I'll look into that training you mentioned.

Happy holidays to you too.
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post #142 of 148 Old 12-19-2015, 10:03 AM
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....This was my first video edited with FCP X. I'm back to enjoying editing after Edius. Although PD was certainly capable and usable, it was nonetheless awkward to use. FCP X is a true joy to use once you get past the learning curve. I find it produces a nicer encode at a bitrate in the mid 60s than I was getting with 100mbs in PD14......
I continue to enjoy using Premier Elements. I'm a version behind the latest, but it does fine with 4K from my Panasonic LX100. It does 4K output with a semi-automated XVAC-S setting.

Back to the A7Rii topic.... I read somewhere that the A7Rii can do automated, in camera, time lapse with pan, tilt, zoom and slider effects. Is that in the camera menu somewhere, is it an app or is it done in post?

Bill
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post #143 of 148 Old 12-19-2015, 10:13 AM
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I continue to enjoy using Premier Elements. I'm a version behind the latest, but it does fine with 4K from my Panasonic LX100. It does 4K output with a semi-automated XVAC-S setting.

Back to the A7Rii topic.... I read somewhere that the A7Rii can do automated, in camera, time lapse with pan, tilt, zoom and slider effects. Is that in the camera menu somewhere, is it an app or is it done in post?

Bill
https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/usbdetail.php?eid=IS9104-NPIA09014_00-000003

Works in the RX100 too.
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post #144 of 148 Old 12-19-2015, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I continue to enjoy using Premier Elements. I'm a version behind the latest, but it does fine with 4K from my Panasonic LX100. It does 4K output with a semi-automated XVAC-S setting.

Back to the A7Rii topic.... I read somewhere that the A7Rii can do automated, in camera, time lapse with pan, tilt, zoom and slider effects. Is that in the camera menu somewhere, is it an app or is it done in post?

Bill
Yes, it's an app Bill.
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post #145 of 148 Old 12-19-2015, 01:29 PM
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Tom, thanks much.

I'll look into that training you mentioned.

Happy holidays to you too.
Hi Ken:
Glad You are using FCP-X for editing your 4K. I don't know what kind of computer you are using but I do all my editing in FCPX since it came out in 2011 lately since 2013 on a New Mac Pro (The Cylinder kind) pretty well soup up with 6 cores and it eats the original clips from the Sony XAVC at 100mbps like butter, I do all the editing using original 4K clips media I don't even bother to convert to Prores which you end up with a bigger file.
And Yes I agree with Tom about Ripple training is a must for getting really good with FCPX another one is Larry Jordan site Plenty of complete courses and tips I recommend both they are excellent for FCPX.
Merry X-Mas my friend, Good video.
Luis (Luidoly)
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post #146 of 148 Old 12-19-2015, 03:54 PM
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https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/usbdetail.php?eid=IS9104-NPIA09014_00-000003

Works in the RX100 too.
Quote:
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Yes, it's an app Bill.
Thanks. Interesting thought having apps for cameras. The link led to another with a bunch of Sony camera apps!

https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com/portal/

At first glance, my "old" RX100i doesn't use any. Seems to start with RX100iii and others including, of course, the A&Rii.
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post #147 of 148 Old 12-20-2015, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by luidoly View Post
Hi Ken:
Glad You are using FCP-X for editing your 4K. I don't know what kind of computer you are using but I do all my editing in FCPX since it came out in 2011 lately since 2013 on a New Mac Pro (The Cylinder kind) pretty well soup up with 6 cores and it eats the original clips from the Sony XAVC at 100mbps like butter, I do all the editing using original 4K clips media I don't even bother to convert to Prores which you end up with a bigger file.
And Yes I agree with Tom about Ripple training is a must for getting really good with FCPX another one is Larry Jordan site Plenty of complete courses and tips I recommend both they are excellent for FCPX.
Merry X-Mas my friend, Good video.
Luis (Luidoly)
Thanks Luis.

I'm using the new 5K I-Mac with a 3.3Ghz I5 and 2TB Fusion drive. It's not quite as souped up as your system, but it too handles the Sony XAVC @ 100mbps, like butter. Render times are crazy and I can honestly say I've never used such a silky smooth program for 4K.

My friends are seriously amused by my transition to Apple. I've long been in the PC camp, but I've been looking for a streamlined editing program that handles 4K easily and FCP X seemed to meet my needs the best. There is certainly room for both platforms and I'm still not ready to ditch my PC.

Thanks for the additional training reference. I'll take a look at that too.

Happy holidays to you too.
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post #148 of 148 Old 12-20-2015, 05:07 PM
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Hi Ken:
That is good, you will feel fine with Apple, the same way that I am enjoying my transition from Canon to Sony.
Thanks,
Luis
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