I am going to produce an HDR video to play in Youtube - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 149 Old 11-09-2016, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I am going to produce an HDR video to play in Youtube

The challenge is make an HDR video that can be shown in HDR by Youtube.

First, why is HDR a big step up in video quality from what we shoot now (REC709 at 8-bit 4:2:0)? Three reasons:

1. More colors - 1 billion, compared with 16.8 million. Closer to what we actually see in the world.

2. Greater gradations of colors (shades of each color) - what 10-bit allows compared with 8-bit, so no “bands” - smooth gradations (4:2:2 helps).

3. Greater dynamic range, more like we are able to see: 5-7 stops (REC709) versus 12.

Here are the ingredients to produce an HDR video:

1. We need camera that can shoot HDR:

I upgraded my Panasonic GH4 to shoot Vlog L. That ups the dynamic range to 12 stops and has the color gamut that is wider than REC709. That cost $100.

The GH4 also outputs 10-bit uncompressed 4:2:2 video, in Vlog L, from its HDMI port. So, 10-bit, 4:2:2, wide color gamut, and high DR. We have shot in HDR!

2. We need a device that records HDR:

The Atomos Shogun Flame ($1500) and Shogun Inferno ($1700) record 10-bit, 4:2:2 video, whether Vlog L or anything into an HDMI port. It works with the GH4, in real 10-bit.

3. We need to see what our videos look like while we shoot:

The Atmos Shoguns are also 10-bit HDR monitors, and you can view the camera output transformed from Vlog L to HDR or REC709 in full color with the dynamic range right in the field! Built-in transform for Vlog L (and others, like Slog 2/3) to HDR.

4. We need software to edit the video produced in the Shogun (Pro Res HQ in Vlog L) and produce and see it in HDR.

DaVinci Resolve (free!) does that, even inputting the meta data that Youtube needs. And it is easy, really easy (and did I say it was free?):

You choose under "Master Project Settings" “DaVinci Resolve YRGB Color Managed” as the Color Science.

You then choose Panasonic V gamut/Vlog L as the Input Color Space and ST.2084 1000 as the Output Color Space (REC2020). Voila, the program transforms the ugly log videos to full color, wide gamut in HDR that you can see as you edit, with the appropriate monitor and graphics card.

5. We need an HDR graphics card and Monitor to see our HDR video in HDR while editing:

The GeForce GTX 1050 Ti is a cheap ($144) brand new graphics card that outputs 10-bit HDR and 4K at 60p, and does not need more power than supplied by the PCI-E slot (so can be put in any old computer).

And the Shoguns can act as HDR monitors! Just attach the device to the graphics card by HDMI and you have a true (7") HDR monitor! I can see my videos in HDR.

So, I went to a nearby woods to capture the Fall colors in bright sunshine using the GH4/Shogun combo (and tripod!), shooting at 4K30p into the sun and in woodsy areas with deep shadows using Vlog L and 10-bit output.

To warm up again in Resolve, I color-graded a small portion of the clips in REC709 (no LUTs). This is that graded 4K video:


Of course, this is just REC709, but there will be (I hope) a true HDR version.

Here is the money shot (in REC709):



Already you can see that the 12-stop DR is helping - this is as extreme a contrast as you can get. Now imagine it in HDR!

So, we will see if all this will work.

Last edited by markr041; 11-09-2016 at 02:57 PM.
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post #2 of 149 Old 11-09-2016, 04:08 PM
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Looks like it is going to work. You start off with a 10-bit 4:2:2 recording, either via the I-Frame ProRes or some sort of 10-bit H.264 such as Sony's XAVC-L, do the editing in 10-bit color space (again ProRes) and render out the final video using Resolve as you described. The absolute requirement is you have to post on YouTube with all the Resolve-tagged metadata so that YouTube can publish this in HDR with a readily truncated version for watching on the 99% of displays people use out there. What I'm not sure about is if any desktop browser other than Chrome now supports this. On mobile device screens this won't be a problem since most people already watch YouTube content via the YouTube app either in Android or iOS.
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post #3 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 06:59 AM
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The YouTube process that says DaVinci Resolve automatically parses HDR metadata did not work for me, at least not in the specified DNxHR HQX codec. I had to use the alternate process to include metadata with Matroska.

Below is a video I was hired by the director to grade in HDR. I did not shoot the video. I can't view the HDR stream at this time so I've only seen HDR from the reference master which was graded PQ with 4000 nit rec. 2020. The YouTube streaming version is 1000 nit 2020. The YouTube generated down-convert to SDR loses all the punch and still looks flat but not nearly as flat as PQ encoded master. My opinion is it will be a lot safer in most cases (better SDR downconvert) if you grade in rec. 709.


HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS

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post #4 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 07:25 AM
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This is not a cheap proposition at a cost of anywhere from $1500-2000 just for the HDR piece, forget the camera.

The other thing is that expanding the color gamut beyond 709 raises questions. How much beyond 709? How far in to 2020? There are currently no consumer displays capable of reproducing anything close to full 2020.

Then you have the issue of color accuracy. Expanding beyond 709 is one thing, but are those color points the camera is producing within the accepted areas of color accuracy? Is the display capable of accurate 2020 reproduction? Not many are, for the amount of 2020 they might reproduce.

These kinds of issues are not new. For example, I've seen cases where a video produced in the Rec709 color space displays accurately on a given display. However the expanded color version of that same video, is not as accurate.

Of course the 'trigger' for HDR is critically important and all this work & expense could be for naught if the display doesn't recognize the metadata and switch in to HDR mode.

We're into unchartered waters, but it's an interesting exercise nonetheless.
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post #5 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The YouTube process that says DaVinci Resolve automatically parses HDR metadata did not work for me, at least not in the specified DNxHR HQX codec. I had to use the alternate process to include metadata with Matroska.

Below is a video I was hired by the director to grade in HDR. I did not shoot the video. I can't view the HDR stream at this time so I've only seen HDR from the reference master which was graded PQ with 4000 nit rec. 2020. The YouTube streaming version is 1000 nit 2020. The YouTube generated down-convert to SDR loses all the punch and still looks flat but not nearly as flat as PQ encoded master. My opinion is it will be a lot safer in most cases (better SDR downconvert) if you grade in rec. 709.
Tom, did you use "DaVinci Resolve YRGB Color Managed" in Resolve and choose ST.2084 1000 as the output color space? It does look like DNxHR HQX is the only viable output codec (12-bit as opposed to all the others that are 8-bit. How do you read the metadata?
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post #6 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
This is not a cheap proposition at a cost of anywhere from $1500-2000 just for the HDR piece, forget the camera.

The other thing is that expanding the color gamut beyond 709 raises questions. How much beyond 709? How far in to 2020? There are currently no consumer displays capable of reproducing anything close to full 2020.

Then you have the issue of color accuracy. Expanding beyond 709 is one thing, but are those color points the camera is producing within the accepted areas of color accuracy? Is the display capable of accurate 2020 reproduction? Not many are, for the amount of 2020 they might reproduce.

These kinds of issues are not new. For example, I've seen cases where a video produced in the Rec709 color space displays accurately on a given display. However the expanded color version of that same video, is not as accurate.

Of course the 'trigger' for HDR is critically important and all this work & expense could be for naught if the display doesn't recognize the metadata and switch in to HDR mode.

We're into unchartered waters, but it's an interesting exercise nonetheless.
I agree that it is not clear what we are going to get. And I think the main hurdle is whether a TV will recognize the metadata. Indeed it seems from Youtube's statement that none will, based on the fact that they say that Samsung SUHD TV's soon will.

I am confused, however, by your saying that no consumer displays are capable of reproducing REC2020. I thought that was the HDR standard that the HDR TV's claim to conform to? Wikipedia: "HDR10 uses PQ, a bit depth of 10-bits, and the Rec. 2020 color space" The Atomos Shogun inputs PQ. The Resolve transforms in color management mode take a specific camera's extended color gamut and translates it into REC2020. Of course, that translation may be error-prone so the result may indeed be less accurate color. But no HDR TV's actually conform to the official standard? That is big news.

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post #7 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 08:20 AM
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The problem with the youtube hdr is there 4 hdr videos in youtube but right now number of supported devices is very small.
For example i have hdr tv (2016 LGC6V Oled). Using tv app or using a computer i cant get hdr video from youtube)
I tried with a computer which has Sapphire Radeon RX480 8GB. Video card has hdmi 2.b using windows 10. No luck. Only sdr version.
Internal youtube app give me just sdr. Tried download those videos with 4k downloader & internet download manager but ended 4k 8 bit sdr mp4 files. They should be in vp9-pq format. Some other forum someone tried youtube-dl script and ended vp9 files which they look in hdr but for some reason they not play as hdr. They has washed colors. Either they are not correct format or tv doesnt support them yet.

So i you able to create hdr video check them first at hdr capable tv make sure they are hdr files. Then upload them to youtube. But getting hdr from youtube still not easy.
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post #8 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soyhakan View Post
The problem with the youtube hdr is there 4 hdr videos in youtube but right now number of supported devices is very small.
For example i have hdr tv (2016 LGC6V Oled). Using tv app or using a computer i cant get hdr video from youtube)
I tried with a computer which has Sapphire Radeon RX480 8GB. Video card has hdmi 2.b using windows 10. No luck. Only sdr version.
Internal youtube app give me just sdr. Tried download those videos with 4k downloader & internet download manager but ended 4k 8 bit sdr mp4 files. They should be in vp9-pq format. Some other forum someone tried youtube-dl script and ended vp9 files which they look in hdr but for some reason they not play as hdr. They has washed colors. Either they are not correct format or tv doesnt support them yet.

So i you able to create hdr video check them first at hdr capable tv make sure they are hdr files. Then upload them to youtube. But getting hdr from youtube still not easy.
Ok, so I will make available for download what I think is an HDR video so folks can try it on an HDTV. But, how does the TV know whether the file is HDR - do HDR TV's need specific metadata to go into HDR mode? My only 10-bit HDR viewing device is the 7" Atomos Shogun. But it does not need metadata; I can manually make it go into HDR mode.
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post #9 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I agree that it is not clear what we are going to get. And I think the main hurdle is whether a TV will recognize the metadata. Indeed it seems from Youtube's statement that none will, based on the fact that they say that Samsung SUHD TV's soon will.

I am confused, however, by your saying that no consumer displays are capable of reproducing REC2020. I thought that was the HDR standard that the HDR TV's claim to conform to? Wikipedia: "HDR10 uses PQ, a bit depth of 10-bits, and the Rec. 2020 color space" The Atomos Shogun inputs PQ. The Resolve transforms in color management mode take a specific camera's extended color gamut and translates it into REC2020. Of course, that translation may be error-prone so the result may indeed be less accurate color. But no HDR TV's actually conform to the official standard? That is big news.
Yes, unfortunately no consumer display can currently do anything near all of the Rec2020 color space. Some displays can get to 60%, others less. So it's not that they can't do 2020, they simply can't do anything approaching 100% of 20200.

The DCI P3 color space has a far more 'attainable' success %, with many displays at or near 95-98%. Rec2020 is a different animal at this point.

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post #10 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:08 AM
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Ok, so I will make available for download what I think is an HDR video so folks can try it on an HDTV. But, how does the TV know whether the file is HDR - do HDR TV's need specific metadata to go into HDR mode? My only 10-bit HDR viewing device is the 7" Atomos Shogun. But it does not need metadata; I can manually make it go into HDR mode.
I think they do beacuse if is valid hdr video file (which is should look washed out color on a computer which doesnt use madvr by the way i mean hdr-10 ) a tv will switch hdr mode. For example you can check demo-uhd3d.com there is few hdr-10 files under hdr section. When they played on hdr capable tv they force the tv switch to hdr mode. Maybe you can mediainfo. Also madvr can convert hdr to sdr. But i really don't know how it reads metadata. Also when i try encode hdr video file with tools that i have always metadata is lost. Output video looks same but madvr convertion does not work and tv doesnt switch hdr mode. Picture has always washed out colors.

Also if you refer that video below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7w...k5dkstNkE/view
An avsforum member Tom Rober did that video. This video also in hdr format. It plays as hdr on tv.
There is special topic in avsforum where you can hdr content:
Master List of currectly hdr titles

I will try upload a valid hdr video (hdr-10) to youtube.
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Last edited by soyhakan; 11-10-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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post #11 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Ok, so I will make available for download what I think is an HDR video so folks can try it on an HDTV. But, how does the TV know whether the file is HDR - do HDR TV's need specific metadata to go into HDR mode? My only 10-bit HDR viewing device is the 7" Atomos Shogun. But it does not need metadata; I can manually make it go into HDR mode.
Here are YouTube's HDR instructions: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552

And zmarty uploaded one. Maybe you can talk to him.
Quote:
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I have published an HDR video on YouTube that you can view with Chromecast Ultra: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW2DKBGCvEs

If you view it on an SDR (non-HDR) screen you will actually look at an HDR > SDR conversion that YouTube creates automatically.

It took a couple of days to set up a workflow for processing and uploading HDR videos for YouTube. Their HDR implementation is atrocious because they rely on custom command line tools to attach HDR metadata to exported video. It's a total mess. And it's their fault because they do not support the actual standard as input (HEVC/H.265 with embedded HDR metadata).

Subscribe to the channel if you want to get notified of new videos as I post them in the next few days.
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post #12 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soyhakan View Post
I think they do beacuse if is valid hdr video file (which is should look washed out color on a computer which doesnt use madvr by the way i mean hdr-10 ) a tv will switch hdr mode. For example you can check demo-uhd3d.com there is few hdr-10 files under hdr section. When they played on hdr capable tv they force the tv switch to hdr mode. Maybe you can mediainfo. Also madvr can convert hdr to sdr. But i really don't know how it reads metadata. Also when i try encode hdr video file with tools that i have always metadata is lost. Output video looks same but madvr convertion does not work and tv doesnt switch hdr mode. Picture has always washed out colors.

Also if you refer that video below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7w...k5dkstNkE/view
An avsforum member Tom Rober did that video. This video also in hdr format. It plays as hdr on tv.
There is special topic in avsforum where you can hdr content:
Master List of currectly hdr titles

I will try upload a valid hdr video (hdr-10) to youtube.
Interestingly, the Roper video is 4:2:0 (mediainfo)! It was also produced in an old version of Resolve and did not follow the YouTube instructions on how to use Resolve to produce an HDR video with the metadata (specifically it used ACES, not Resolve color management), according to the very useful description at the start of the video. The video is indeed REC2020 and 10-bit. It looks atrocious on an SDR screen, so it must be HDR!
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post #13 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Here are YouTube's HDR instructions: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/7126552

And zmarty uploaded one. Maybe you can talk to him.
First, my original post repeated the YouTube instructions, so I know how to make an HDR video using Resolve that YouTube can decode, although the Resolve output video is DNxHR, which I am not sure YouTube can use.

Second, zmarty's complaint ("It took a couple of days to set up a workflow for processing and uploading HDR videos for YouTube. Their HDR implementation is atrocious because they rely on custom command line tools to attach HDR metadata to exported video") is irrelevant if, as YouTube indicates, Resolve injects the appropriate metadata automatically.

But we will see. Anyway, this is all great information (some of it a little disturbing).
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post #14 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Interestingly, the Roper video is 4:2:0 (mediainfo)! It was also produced in an old version of Resolve and did not follow the YouTube instructions on how to use Resolve to produce an HDR video with the metadata (specifically it used ACES, not Resolve color management), according to the very useful description at the start of the video. The video is indeed REC2020 and 10-bit. It looks atrocious on an SDR screen, so it must be HDR!
Tom's video of the lake and mountains (as I recall) actually looked quite nice on my HDR displays and did trigger the HDR function.
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post #15 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 11:09 AM
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Here is the skinny, for everyone.

Last gets to go first

@soyhakan - It will not be successful uploading HDR including mine (thanks for posting link) to YouTube because they don't accept HEVC. They don't want to pay licensing. All HDR up to this point has been HEVC. You are correct that unflagged HDR will play flat with washed out color. In fact you are correct in everything you said.

@Ken Ross - I agree it was probably a mistake for UHD Premium certification to choose rec. 2020 over P3 colorspace.

@markr041 - The usual way for the TV to kick into HDR mode is HEVC metadata. All consumer HDR10/Dolby Vision displays are encoded with HEVC. There is one other path to HDR through a flag sent over HDMI 2.0a. Only works with HDMI 2.0a or later. That's how it will have to work with PC video cards and the Chromecast Ultra dongle. When you manually choose HDR on the Shogun, you are choosing a Lut. Yes I used Resolve YRGB color managed space and chose 1000 nit ST2084. No metadata went into the DNxHR encode, which is impractical anyway for YouTube as that 45 second video I posted was 3.7 GB. I can't say whether Prores or h.264 would carry HDR metadata but I don't think so. My experience has been that only the HEVC codec carries HDR metadata. YouTube's workaround is to wrap your encode inside a mkv container since matroska does support HDR10 metadata. The problem is, that's only good for YouTube because all TV's currently require HEVC. Isn't that funny, that what YouTube makes possible, the only current path for some watching their own creations in HDR will mean uploading to YT and streaming it to themselves! Also, to do HDR properly, not only the monitor but as important to have the paid version of Resolve called Studio, because you really need the HDR grading toolset and scopes. It's a great upgrade. Also h.264 does come in 10 bit varieties. Exporting from Resolve to XAVC-I could be an option for you, that's 10 bit, but no metadata I am aware of, but for YT you could add it with the metadata tool. You can read the metadata with mkvinfo.

@All - The YT workflow is at least somewhat ambiguous at this point. It will be hard to get it to work. The video I embedded above (post #3) I confirmed does have the metadata embedded, and the YT system automatically generated and SDR re-code although not as good as your own SDR encode does indicate that YT reads the metadata inside the mkv container. Also, the YT help page for HDR lists some sample HDR metadata which includes mastering for P3 color inside the rec. 2020 container. That's a good thing, except that elsewhere they said they did not read mastering data, just color primaries (2020), color matrix (2020 non-constant luma) and transfer (ST2084). So I included the mastering data but if they don't read it, then as Ken says colors could be wonky. I think they will be okay but that said, in general you will be safer and likely better off just choosing 709 color. That is just my opinion of course, but I think using the ACES workflow is better than DaVinci YRGB color managed, I get a better result overall with ACES for HDR10, but in this case I followed YouTube instructions to use YRB color managed. I conclude there is some ambiguity in the YT help page, probably to keep it short, and maybe even to screen/filter low end productions from cluttering up their HDR content, but that is only speculation.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Interestingly, the Roper video is 4:2:0 (mediainfo)! It was also produced in an old version of Resolve and did not follow the YouTube instructions on how to use Resolve to produce an HDR video with the metadata (specifically it used ACES, not Resolve color management), according to the very useful description at the start of the video. The video is indeed REC2020 and 10-bit. It looks atrocious on an SDR screen, so it must be HDR!
I originally encoded it with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling but then I got reports it would not playback on all HDR TV's at the time, and that the HDR10 spec calls for 4:2:0, so I reposted it with 4:2:0 which solved the compatibility problem.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #17 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 11:20 AM
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But to Ken's point, it was HEVC content, and HEVC supports HDR metadata. YT won't accept HEVC, so the only way I found so far to deliver the metadata for YT was using the alternate process they posted on the help page.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #18 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Tom,

Thanks for the info. Two questions:

What HDR "tools" in Resolve Studio does the full version add that are necessary? Are you saying without those tools you cannot grade in HDR in Resolve (with an appropriate monitor)? Note to everyone: upgrading to Resolve Studio costs $995!

I do not see any option for encoding in XAVC in any flavor in my Resolve (latest version, but not Studio). Is this just an option in Studio, or am I missing something? The only codec that had more than 8-bit that I saw was indeed DNxHR HQX. I have XAVC -I as an option in Vegas, and that is what I export to when I have 10-bit video (but not HDR). But I just do not see that in Resolve.
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post #19 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 01:06 PM
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Tom,

Thanks for the info. Two questions:

What HDR "tools" in Resolve Studio does the full version add that are necessary? Are you saying without those tools you cannot grade in HDR in Resolve (with an appropriate monitor)? Note to everyone: upgrading to Resolve Studio costs $995!

I do not see any option for encoding in XAVC in any flavor in my Resolve (latest version, but not Studio). Is this just an option in Studio, or am I missing something? The only codec that had more than 8-bit that I saw was indeed DNxHR HQX. I have XAVC -I as an option in Vegas, and that is what I export to when I have 10-bit video (but not HDR). But I just do not see that in Resolve.
When you right click on a node, you see an option (grayed out in the free version) to choose HDR MODE. When you do that, for everything you grade within that node, all the tools are remapped, all the color wheels, curves etc. It makes it easier to make grading adjustments targeted to HDR. The other thing is the waveform monitors, parade, vectorscope are remapped 0-10,000 nits. This is important too because the scaling is logarithmic, sometimes only a tiny change to the gain wheel, or highlights, and your peak shoots up to 4000-10,000 nits, at other times a big change to a wheel makes only a small change to the peak. You can't see this with the standard scopes that are mapped 0-1023. It doesn't make it impossible to grade HDR, but you can't always, in fact you can't usually properly judge the difference between a 1000-4000 nit peak, or a 100-300 peak, or 300-1000 peak, or a 4000-10000 peak. Some of those your monitor can't show, and others that can show look almost the same particularly if it's all one color or white. Not impossible without but much easier with.

As for XAVC, and for this I have to assume a PC platform; on the DELIVER page; for your EXPORT setting you choose FORMAT: OP1A, and then under CODEC: you choose one of the XAVC-I flavors.

I do not know if that is exclusive to Studio or not...I didn't think it was but you'll have to check for yourself.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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When you right click on a node, you see an option (grayed out in the free version) to choose HDR MODE. When you do that, for everything you grade within that node, all the tools are remapped, all the color wheels, curves etc. It makes it easier to make grading adjustments targeted to HDR. The other thing is the waveform monitors, parade, vectorscope are remapped 0-10,000 nits. This is important too because the scaling is logarithmic, sometimes only a tiny change to the gain wheel, or highlights, and your peak shoots up to 4000-10,000 nits, at other times a big change to a wheel makes only a small change to the peak. You can't see this with the standard scopes that are mapped 0-1023. It doesn't make it impossible to grade HDR, but you can't always, in fact you can't usually properly judge the difference between a 1000-4000 nit peak, or a 100-300 peak, or 300-1000 peak, or a 4000-10000 peak. Some of those your monitor can't show, and others that can show look almost the same particularly if it's all one color or white. Not impossible without but much easier with.

As for XAVC, and for this I have to assume a PC platform; on the DELIVER page; for your EXPORT setting you choose FORMAT: OP1A, and then under CODEC: you choose one of the XAVC-I flavors.

I do not know if that is exclusive to Studio or not...I didn't think it was but you'll have to check for yourself.
Thanks, Tom. The XAVC options are not there. Confirmed from Blackmagic: "Sony XAVC Intra encoding (Full version only)"

Someone reports that if you render to DNxHR 444 in MXF OP1A the metadata will be there. The file size is immense. I can play the rendered file in Resolve, but that is about it.

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post #21 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 05:01 PM
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On a computer with Rec.2020 compliance (compliance here doesn't mean full 100% color space or close as on a those studio master monitors that can run up to US$ 20,000+ for a decent screen size) one way to check if what you see is a YouTube-compliant HDR material is for example,

Clip #1 on the YouTube HDR playlist (white bengal tiger in the thumbnail)

- at normal 8-bit standard sRGB or the likes screen setting, the clip would play back with normal-looking colors but nothing special that you would say it is different from other well shot video clips you have seen. However on my display, there's an option to select various color profiles at this 8-bit setting and when I choose Rec.2020 instead of the usual Rec.709, sRGB or some others the clip will become washed out with the telltale desaturated, and shifting towards magenta/maroon in the crimson red.

- at 10-bit sRGB or the likes setting, the clip would play back with over the top, pumped up colors. Just the first shot down from maybe a drone onto the beach and turquoise sea below you could immediately tell there is something wrong with the video. The motorcross shot which Joe posted screenshots of would show greens with neon looking tinge and a shift to cyan. When I choose the Rec.2020 profile everything suddenly looks right. It is also looks distinctly vibrant especially the first shot from a drone as I mentioned above and the last shot at and from the beach with waves rolling in. This particular one is a real killer of a shot to show off the DR and color due to the high contrast of the white water waves and some shadows in the ground and trees with a mid-range sky and everything else in between. Never once in my entire video shooting peroid of nearly 30 years have I been able to shoot or seen anything like it with ANY equipment.

These are still early days so it's just natural we are fumbling a bit. The matter has not been made easier with the major players now seeming to be carving out their own territories and imposing the rules of visiting on all of us. But this is what makes our experience great, doesn't it?
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post #22 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Progress So Far

I made the HDR Video, graded in HDR in Resolve 12.5 and output as DNxHR 444 with metadata that is supposed to inform Youtube the video is HDR.

I watched the video in HDR on the Shogun in full screen (all 7") and it looks great. The Shogun is a 10-bit 1500 nits screen, that is higher brightness than some HDTV's. Watching on my regular computer screen the colors look washed out; in HDR on the Shogun in HDR mode - wow! So, I have seen my own video in HDR. On the Shogun set for PQ input and REC2020 color, any video in REC709 looks terrible and the luminance is blindingly high not watching an HDR video.

Now the bad news - the 1 minute 46 second video is - wait for it - 21.6 GB's! The bitrate is 1747 Mbps. And it plays not smoothly - 12-bit, 1747 Mbps, forget it, even with my GTX 1050 GPU and current-generation i7 with 16 GB's of RAM.

Ok, so now I am uploading the video to YouTube for the next test - will it recognize it as HDR?

Help I need: how do I best convert the DNxHR 444 UHD file to a 10-bit HEVC MP4 file, keeping all the quality (I know how to reinsert the metadata given YouTube)? Vegas Pro cannot read the file. If I can make an HDR HEVC video, it can be directly played (via usb) on a UHD TV.

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post #23 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 08:14 PM
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One thing I think I've mentioned before, even professionally produced HDR is highly variable in terms of quality. There is far too much over-the-top HDR that simply looks as if the only rationale for production was to blind you with the look of HDR.

I was at a BB last week and they had an HDR demo, on a Sony Z9D, of some Tom Cruise movie. A night scene exhibited rain slicked streets with overhead street lights reflecting off the wet pavement. Those reflections were just absurdly bright, far far brighter than anything you'd see in the real world. This is HDR gone bad. Of course with judicious setting of the picture controls, things could probably be improved.

However when it's done right and produced realistically, it can be quite beautiful.
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For everybody that was asking how to export HDR videos to YouTube, please follow the thread I opened at the Blackmagic forum website: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...53625&p=309414

As you can see from the thread, YouTube HDR is currently a bit half baked.

I may publish a tutorial video a bit later once they confirm and hopefully fixed the bugs I opened.
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post #25 of 149 Old 11-10-2016, 10:05 PM
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Ok, so now I am uploading the video to YouTube for the next test - will it recognize it as HDR?
From my experience and from the way they responded to the GitHub bugs I opened, it will not. The only reliable way is to create an mkv container using mkvmerge - see the thread I linked to: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...53625&p=309414

Also by the way, you need DNxHR HQX. If you do not follow their documentation exactly you will run into trouble. For instance I had an H.264 file and it did not work because it was 8 bit instead of 10 bit and here is what they said: "It seems you uploaded a 8bit H264 bitstream. To trigger the HDR-SDR conversion, you have to wrap a 10bit stream in mkv."

Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
Help I need: how do I best convert the DNxHR 444 UHD file to a 10-bit HEVC MP4 file, keeping all the quality (I know how to reinsert the metadata given YouTube)? Vegas Pro cannot read the file. If I can make an HDR HEVC video, it can be directly played (via usb) on a UHD TV.
I have another thread on a related subject here: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...50329&p=295284

Last edited by zmarty; 11-10-2016 at 10:09 PM.
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post #26 of 149 Old 11-11-2016, 12:10 AM
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I was at a BB last week and they had an HDR demo, on a Sony Z9D, of some Tom Cruise movie......
Just walked past a Sony showroom demoing this exact same Sony model (Z9D, 75"). The content it was playing was Sony-made with the Sony logo watermarked on the video of mostly night time scenes in San Francisco together with some random shots of wildlife. It looked like what you described, blinding highlights, oversaturated colors and overall having an over-processed look to it. It seems some people who should know better are confused between over-contrasty and over-saturated image and good looking image. As we all know this thing about looks is highly subjective so I'd rather say it's just not my liking.
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post #27 of 149 Old 11-11-2016, 12:34 AM
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Just walked past a Sony showroom demoing this exact same Sony model (Z9D, 75"). The content it was playing was Sony-made with the Sony logo watermarked on the video of mostly night time scenes in San Francisco together with some random shots of wildlife. It looked like what you described, blinding highlights, oversaturated colors and overall having an over-processed look to it. It seems some people who should know better are confused between over-contrasty and over-saturated image and good looking image. As we all know this thing about looks is highly subjective so I'd rather say it's just not my liking.
I actually own a 4K Blu-Ray which in my opinion has a similar problem: Ender's Game. They somehow messed up the black level and made everything too bright in a lot of scenes.

When I started coloring HDR videos I made the same mistakes. Hopefully I am wise enough now not to do it and only use higlights when necessary. It is quite OK not to hit that 1000 or whatever nits peak all the time

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post #28 of 149 Old 11-11-2016, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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First Result

Not surprisingly, given other's experience, following Youtube's instructions to the letter did not succeed in YouTube processing my HDR video as they said they would.

Here is the video:


As you can see, it has the washed out look, meaning you are watching an HDR video in SDR. YouTube claimed it would transform the HDR video for SDR viewing when people had SDR screens. If, on the other hand, your screen is in HDR mode, you will see it in HDR. But that will not happen evidently from metadata.

I can assure you, having seen it in HDR, the video is colorful (but not gawdy) and more realistic than the true SDR version I posted.

Btw, I do not understand the surprise voiced here at the quality of the commercial HDR demos - the 4K demos were just as bad, in exactly the same way - they went overboard on contrast, and saturation and sharpening. So now, they go overboard on DR too. While I am no fan of the pretentious muted "film" look, I like videos that look natural. Part of the reason for the look in the stores, may be the settings of the TV's also, though I thought in HDR mode there was less ability to muck around with TV settings to precisely prevent looks that were unnatural (like "vivid" or "sports" modes).
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post #29 of 149 Old 11-11-2016, 11:17 AM
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Not surprisingly, given other's experience, following Youtube's instructions to the letter did not succeed in YouTube processing my HDR video as they said they would.

Here is the video:

https://youtu.be/0c--s8UMb0g

As you can see, it has the washed out look, meaning you are watching an HDR video in SDR. YouTube claimed it would transform the HDR video for SDR viewing when people had SDR screens. If, on the other hand, your screen is in HDR mode, you will see it in HDR. But that will not happen evidently from metadata.
I hope you didn't invest too much money in this endeavor.
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I can assure you, having seen it in HDR, the video is colorful (but not gawdy) and more realistic than the true SDR version I posted.

Btw, I do not understand the surprise voiced here at the quality of the commercial HDR demos - the 4K demos were just as bad, in exactly the same way - they went overboard on contrast, and saturation and sharpening. So now, they go overboard on DR too. While I am no fan of the pretentious muted "film" look, I like videos that look natural. Part of the reason for the look in the stores, may be the settings of the TV's also, though I thought in HDR mode there was less ability to muck around with TV settings to precisely prevent looks that were unnatural (like "vivid" or "sports" modes).
Actually when I was referring to the very spotty nature of quality HDR, I was referring to Hollywood produced movies that are already out on UHD BluRay. In actuality, the best HDR I've seen are some of the demos I have.

As for the ability to adjust picture parameters while the display is in HDR, that varies by manufacturer. Some give you more than others. You can generally adjust the main picture parameters (black levels, color etc.) while in HDR. This ability needs to be retained since the viewing environment changes from user to user.
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post #30 of 149 Old 11-11-2016, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I hope you didn't invest too much money in this endeavor.
Oh no, this is just the first step. We know the additional steps needed to get the video to work in YouTube and to make the video readable in HDR via usb on TV's; it's just more complicated and a pain in the neck. It will work, as others have shown. This is the cost of being on the cutting edge, but it is also the fun. And in the process we learn a lot. The end result is really an visible improvement, just like going from HD to 4K.

The main investment was being able to shoot and monitor in HDR in the field and edit in HDR at the computer. And that all works perfectly and easily; in fact HDR video on the Shogun looks better than on most TV's because of the 1500 nits brightness capability (I wonder how much of the REC2020 gamut it can display?).

Ultimately, the very last steps for making HDR home-made videos visible to all will get easier.
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Last edited by markr041; 11-11-2016 at 11:45 AM.
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