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post #31 of 62 Old 06-08-2019, 07:40 PM
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It’s funny, no matter what kind of computer I’ve ever bought, all-in-one or regular desktop, I’ve never upgraded parts other than adding more RAM. So I just don’t worry about that anymore.
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post #32 of 62 Old 06-08-2019, 09:07 PM
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I guess the storage is not upgradable later, only by Apple, but memory/gpu/pcie options are.

Every tower system I've had I've always upgraded at least once. Power Mac G4 two of those, G5 had 3 of those, 2009 Mac Pro current upgraded to 3.33 12-core and 2 Xserve servers.

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post #33 of 62 Old 06-09-2019, 04:09 AM
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Storage was never an issue since you can either offload projects upon completion to an external drive or start them on an external drive.

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post #34 of 62 Old 06-09-2019, 08:17 AM
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I previously posted the Mac Pro was user upgradable vs an iMac it wasn't, aside from HDD it is so just making a correction there. But say you configure 2 256gb slots and want to add more later, you'd have to visit an Apple store to get the upgrade done and pay whatever they charge plus labor, as the parts don't exist for user upgrading. Internal storage is way faster than external so for speed critical tasks like rendering it would make a huge difference in processing time. Every pro machine I've owned I've had user upgradable storage options so that would be an issue for me especially as the cost for storage comes down later. You would have to pay a premium price up front.

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post #35 of 62 Old 06-09-2019, 01:11 PM
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Since I offload projects, storage is never an issue.

Current displays- LG 65C9, LG 77G7, LG 65B6
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post #36 of 62 Old 06-09-2019, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It’s funny, no matter what kind of computer I’ve ever bought, all-in-one or regular desktop, I’ve never upgraded parts other than adding more RAM. So I just don’t worry about that anymore.
Ken, I could upgrade my RAM, SSD and CPU in my Mac Pro but never did since it's fast enough for me.
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memo...e-mac-pro/2013
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/ssd/owc/mac-pro/2013
https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/proc...-cylinder-2013
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post #37 of 62 Old 06-09-2019, 05:35 PM
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I've always been a WinPC user, but was issued a MBP at my new job. Hated it for the first two months, but then loved it so much that bought two for my wife and kid. Sure, I bought used 3rd gen MBPs without the idiotic touch bar and with better keyboard. Overall, I love 3rd get MBP, think it is the best laptop ever made. 4th gen MBP is plagued with issues, from usability to design to production to reliability. I think these 3rd gen MBPs will remain the only Apple products I voluntarily own. Never cared for iPads or iPhones. First and second gen iPads as thick as a pillow were a joke. The first iPad Mini with 164 PPI was a joke. Their overall ecosystem without direct access to file system does not work for me.

On the plus side, built in command line and bash makes development easy. But, Chromebooks now will have real Linux underneath, and Windows getting more and more serious with Linux subsystem for Windows. So, less reason to get MBP, maybe just for its aluminum body.
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post #38 of 62 Old 06-10-2019, 12:29 PM
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I build my own systems, so upgradeability is important. Most systems I own have been upgraded at least once. I stopped buying prebuilt systems because very often when something fails there is some proprietary bit or some compromise made in the original build that means you either can't repair it or use the components you want to use.

Regarding tablets, they are primarily content consumption devices. They are very good at that task, no so much for productivity.
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post #39 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 08:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I built my own PCs since Windows 2.0 in full tower cases but I got tired of all the crap they collect after a few years and did not like all the drives powered on in the system 100% of the time. I much prefer my current Mac Pro form factor with Thunderbolt 2 20GB/s ports and USB 3.0 ports for using low cost fast storage on 4TB 7200 rpm HDDs/SSDs that pop into dual toaster ext. USB 3.0 drives or PCIe ext. TB2 drives. Why should I have my images and 4K videos on HDD/SSDs powered on when they are just in storage like in a full tower case.
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post #40 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 11:29 AM
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Non-boot HDDs power down when not in use. There are all sorts of power settings in the OS depending on how you want to use the system.
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post #41 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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My two Windows 10 PCs (one mid-tower, one full tower gaming PC) just have a single SSD in them and use storage on an external USB 3.0 ( StarTech USB 3.0 to Dual 2.5/3.5" HDD/SSD Docking Station with UASP) just like my Mac Pro.
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With a USB 3.0 connection, the USB 3.0 to Dual 2.5/3.5" HDD/SSD Docking Station with UASP from StarTech makes it simple to connect both 2.5" and 3.5" SATA III drives to a system running Windows, Mac, or Google Chrome OS. Once connected this drive dock supports both SATA III (6 Gbps) and UASP connectivity ensuring optimal performance. The dual bay, top slot loading design allows the drives to be easily installed and removed while the integrated slot doors protect the slots when not in use.


Supports SATA III (6 Gbps) and UASP for optimal performance Independent power buttons for each hard drive Compatible with SATA revision I/II/III (1.5/3.0/6.0 Gbps) drives Compatible with USB 3.0/2.0/1.1 (5 Gbps / 480 Mbps / 1.5 Mbps) Supports both 2.5" and 3.5" form factor hard drives (HDD) and solid state drives (SSD) Dual bay, top slot-loading design with drive doors
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...dual_sata.html


My Mac Pro also has the LaCie Little Big Disk Thunderbolt-2 Portable Hard Drive 1TB SSD with 1375MB/s speeds for 4K video editing as shown with my Mac Pro and GH4 back in 2014.
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post #42 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 01:22 PM
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PC Build with top processor for base Mac Pro money

AMD 32 core 2990wx (add 1805.00)
32gb memory 2933 (add 156.00) DDR4 3200 available
Nvidia 2080 11GB (add 1165.00)
overclocking (add 99.00)
1200 Watt psu (add 140.00)
m.2 512gb 3.5gb read (add 162.00)
m.2 open
HD 3 open
HD 4 open
HD 5 open

Supports 4 gpu's

Final price: 6323.00

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post #43 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
PC Build with top processor for base Mac Pro money

AMD 32 core 2990wx (add 1805.00)
32gb memory 2933 (add 156.00) DDR4 3200 available
Nvidia 2080 11GB (add 1165.00)
overclocking (add 99.00)
1200 Watt psu (add 140.00)
m.2 512gb 3.5gb read (add 162.00)
m.2 open
HD 3 open
HD 4 open
HD 5 open

Supports 4 gpu's

Final price: 6323.00
Bet it doesn't run FCP very well.

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post #44 of 62 Old 06-11-2019, 08:35 PM
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Bet it doesn't run FCP very well.
It would if you install OSX.

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post #45 of 62 Old 06-12-2019, 04:42 AM
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It would if you install OSX.
Don’t like jumping through hoops and booting a dual OS. That’s just my choice and I’m sure you don’t consider it ‘jumping through hoops’. As I said, it’s a choice and preference. My late 2015, 27” 5K Imac, continues to serve me well and it’s the computer I’ve held on to the longest precisely because it does continue to serve me well. That plus the fact that I really like the Mac OS and for me, I find it superior to Window.

I enjoy the all-in-one construction and top notch integrated Apple display. As I said, my newest PC is also an all-in-one. For my needs the IMac offers enough power and speed for both creating and exporting my 4K projects. Could I get faster speeds with a newer Mac or different computer, sure, but what I’ve got is fast enough. Display quality is more important to me than having the fastest Geek Bench scores. I grew tired of that never-ending race and eventually realized that these changes really didn’t result in any life altering differences in my project or export times.

I moved away from towers/traditional desktops 4 years ago and haven’t looked back. I realized since I never bothered replacing components in my towers, that the tower concept was not serving me well and just creating clutter. Each to his own.
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post #46 of 62 Old 06-12-2019, 09:00 AM
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For quick use I'll likely always use my Macbook Air and my next laptop will probably be another Air because they're so light. I don't need the fastest specs for web/email casual use. I also like the Mac mini.

But for handling edit work as well as maintaining my movie server, I'll always have a more robust desktop. Apple's pretty much weeded out the home Pro user with this Mac Pro. It would take some doing but you could install OSX on a second drive and never use Windows on a PC build, I prefer OSX as well but I get along in Windows OK as needed to run a few programs. Just to run FCP though, no. I'd use Premiere, Vegas Pro or Edius. Windows, it's not as bad as it once was. I can at least tolerate it to get some work done.

Personally, I'd rather not have my main edit system as an all-in one. If something goes wrong with the display, the entire system is down. I only say that because we had numerous iMacs over the years and every time they go out it's usually the display or some other catastrophic failure that is more expensive to repair than to replace. In fact, pretty much every computer that has a display tied to it has not survived that I've owned, which includes laptops. 2 iBooks, 3 Power Books, 3 Mac Book Pros, at least 3 iMacs all of those died and have been recycled. Still have the original iMac from 1998 though downstairs on shelf, needs a new drive and install but it still runs. And an old Power Book from 1998 and a TAM, other than that only my desktop machines are still around and still work last I checked. I will say they are getting better post 2010. My 2013 Air is still going, we'll see.

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post #47 of 62 Old 06-12-2019, 01:15 PM
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We’ve had great luck with my 27” IMac and my wife’s 21” 4K IMac, no problems. If they develop a serious, expensive issue, we’ll replace them. No biggie.

I’ve used Edius for many years and have always liked it. However as I used FCP more and more, my preference definitely moved to FCP. In fact I so favor FCP, I almost never use Edius anymore.

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post #48 of 62 Old 06-12-2019, 01:16 PM
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That is the problem with any all in one system.

Personally though, the hardware failures I have experienced almost always have something to do with the display system. I have had three monitors die on me. One was a CRT, the other two were LCDs. The LCD display must have had a design fault though, because one of the two that failed was a replacement for the original, it had the same problem. Mostly the components that fail are graphics cards, I have gone through quite a few of those. Probably because they pump out a lot of heat and eventually the fans have some issue or dust accumulates too much, resulting in the GPUs dieing. I have had one SSD fail for no obvious reason (that was one of the original consumer versions though - modern ones seem more reliable), and one hard drive (a portable that fell while operating, that knocked the heads out of place). I had one motherboard fail, a Dell, which used a proprietary motherboard they no longer made, so it was not repairable at reasonable cost and the whole system had to be junked as a result - one of the reasons I no longer buy systems that use proprietary components. If I can't fix a failed part without paying the cost of virtually a new system, then you don't get my business. Sorry.

Other than that, most systems I have had end up on the scrapheap because they have become obsolete, not because of some failure. Especially the last 5 or 6 years, modern technology seems to be much more reliable than the older stuff.

That said, I expect the motherboard on my current computer to die sometime though, since it has started producing random failed IRQs in the sound system. I think the sound chip on the board is failing, either that or there is some problem with the speakers that has manifested itself with age. It certainly is annoying because it causes the sound driver to restart randomly, resulting in the system display freezing for a few seconds while that happens.
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post #49 of 62 Old 06-12-2019, 05:46 PM
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Believe it or not the lowly new MacBook Air without a dedicated GPU runs FCPX well. How well? A few times that I have used it, which by the way was my client's and not mine, it handled a single 8-bit stream of 100Mbps XAVC-S 4K from Sony or 8-bit 150Mbps MP4 4K/60p from Panasonic very well especially when the footage was transcoded to the standard ProRes 422 or 422 HQ before editing. Scrubbing, trimming and playing back on the timeline was smooth with no stuttering. Rendering and exporting was reasonable, definitely taking longer than my trash can Mac Pro does but nothing catastrophic or too annoying. Going up to dual streams of those or 10-bit raw footage or rendering to H.265 in an HDR10 project in particular would most likely strain the machine to the point of not being practically useable but usually in that case you would want to do it on a more capable or desktop system anyway.

I think this is a good example of the beauty of Apple's full integration between their hardware and software. No matter how paltry the specs of their new hardware may look, they always make sure it works reasonably well with their exclusive software (in the case of FCPX, not only platform exclusive but also industry dominant), up to at least the real limitations of the hardware. Things are probably different with Davinci Resolve or Premier Pro but you are likely to have better choices with the PC then.
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post #50 of 62 Old 06-13-2019, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
That is the problem with any all in one system.

Personally though, the hardware failures I have experienced almost always have something to do with the display system. I have had three monitors die on me. One was a CRT, the other two were LCDs. The LCD display must have had a design fault though, because one of the two that failed was a replacement for the original, it had the same problem. Mostly the components that fail are graphics cards, I have gone through quite a few of those. Probably because they pump out a lot of heat and eventually the fans have some issue or dust accumulates too much, resulting in the GPUs dieing. I have had one SSD fail for no obvious reason (that was one of the original consumer versions though - modern ones seem more reliable), and one hard drive (a portable that fell while operating, that knocked the heads out of place). I had one motherboard fail, a Dell, which used a proprietary motherboard they no longer made, so it was not repairable at reasonable cost and the whole system had to be junked as a result - one of the reasons I no longer buy systems that use proprietary components. If I can't fix a failed part without paying the cost of virtually a new system, then you don't get my business. Sorry.

Other than that, most systems I have had end up on the scrapheap because they have become obsolete, not because of some failure. Especially the last 5 or 6 years, modern technology seems to be much more reliable than the older stuff.

That said, I expect the motherboard on my current computer to die sometime though, since it has started producing random failed IRQs in the sound system. I think the sound chip on the board is failing, either that or there is some problem with the speakers that has manifested itself with age. It certainly is annoying because it causes the sound driver to restart randomly, resulting in the system display freezing for a few seconds while that happens.
And that’s why I don't worry about this stuff. I can’t recall the last failure I had with either a display, HDD, GPU or any other part. Thus I have zero qualms about all-in-ones.

Current displays- LG 65C9, LG 77G7, LG 65B6
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post #51 of 62 Old 06-13-2019, 01:28 PM
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And that’s why I don't worry about this stuff. I can’t recall the last failure I had with either a display, HDD, GPU or any other part. Thus I have zero qualms about all-in-ones.
GPUs are the most likely to fail because they accumulate dust quite easily in their cooling fins and inside the shroud on components. The fans also tend to develop problems as they age. Those things result in hotter components over time and eventually they fail. It is less of an issue nowdays because graphics card manufacturers pay more attention to cooling than they used.
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post #52 of 62 Old 06-13-2019, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand why Apple sticks with AMD graphics but will not use AMD CPUs since the new AMD CPUs look like they will kill Intel this year in performance and value.


https://www.anandtech.com/show/14525...-and-epyc-rome

Last edited by jogiba; 06-13-2019 at 06:46 PM.
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post #53 of 62 Old 06-14-2019, 02:07 PM
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I don't understand why Apple sticks with AMD graphics but will not use AMD CPUs since the new AMD CPUs look like they will kill Intel this year in performance and value.
https://youtu.be/v7hofCnniJE


https://www.anandtech.com/show/14525...-and-epyc-rome
Probably because AMD CPUs were not competitive performance wise at the time machines were designed. Remember, these are Xeons we are talking about, not consumer processors.

AMD's next generation CPUs might top Intel's last generation processors, but what will Intel produce in their next product cycle, which should arrive later this year? Remember the 9900K was launched 8 months ago not this month. Presumably Intel's 10th generation desktop processors will outperform the 9th generation, and where will AMD be then?
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post #54 of 62 Old 06-16-2019, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the new Mac Pro base 256GB SSD and AMD Radeon Pro 580X GPU (8GB) for $5,999 ( $12K with 32" Retina 6K display & stand) is just as bad as the price of the $999 monitor stand.

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post #55 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 07:53 AM
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Joe, I like the price of the iMac a lot more!
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post #56 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree Ken, it might even run faster then the base $5,999 Mac Pro since the 512GB SSD is faster and the 3.6GHz 8-core Intel Core i9 has a faster Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz. vs 3.5/4.0GHz Turbo Boost on the base 8-core Mac Pro.
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post #57 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 11:30 AM
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Perhaps for ‘some’, but surely nobody that I know that uses a Mac.

BTW, mine is a ‘late 2015’ 27” 5K IMac, and it still does a great job today. Never really felt the upgrade urge.
They might not say so, but yeah, that is in the back of their mind. A lot of people would not be seen dead using something other than an Apple product, I see that at the University a lot (even though literally all of their instruments run off high end windows systems, lol). You are not cool if you are using a Windows/Andriod system (it means that you, or your parents, don't have enough money to buy an Apple) There is a definite snob factor involved. In the old days you would see some high end equipment which had graphic presentation as an important component use a mac, but that was when PCs were mostly using DOS or the crude Windows of the early days. Not so any more, it has been a very long time since I have seen ANY instrument being run by an Apple computer.
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post #58 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 12:33 PM
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They might not say so, but yeah, that is in the back of their mind. A lot of people would not be seen dead using something other than an Apple product, I see that at the University a lot (even though literally all of their instruments run off high end windows systems, lol). You are not cool if you are using a Windows/Andriod system (it means that you, or your parents, don't have enough money to buy an Apple) There is a definite snob factor involved. In the old days you would see some high end equipment which had graphic presentation as an important component use a mac, but that was when PCs were mostly using DOS or the crude Windows of the early days. Not so any more, it has been a very long time since I have seen ANY instrument being run by an Apple computer.
So who knew Tugela was one of the great mind readers of our time?

It couldn’t be because they like the OS and find it easier to use than Windows?- Nah
It couldn’t be because they’ve had good luck with Macs before and find them more reliable. - Nah
It couldn’t be because they find the tech support far better than Windows-based computers. - Nah
It couldn’t be that although not immune to viruses, Macs are less susceptible to them. - Nah

Just so you know, all of these have been rationales told to me by Mac users and many are far from young people who are style conscious with their electronics. A casual glance at some of the other electronics in their homes would convince you ‘style’ is a non-issue.

So no, I’m convinced you are totally wrong. Are there some who do buy for the reasons you mentioned? Sure, but I don’t know them nor do I socialize with them. In my case, I could care less about the superficial issues. I have both Mac & PC all-in-ones and have no axe to grind. I started out with a Mac because of FCP, but before long grew to really like the Mac OS and now use it as my ‘everyday driver’.
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post #59 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
So who knew Tugela was one of the great mind readers of our time?

It couldn’t be because they like the OS and find it easier to use than Windows?- Nah
It couldn’t be because they’ve had good luck with Macs before and find them more reliable. - Nah
It couldn’t be because they find the tech support far better than Windows-based computers. - Nah
It couldn’t be that although not immune to viruses, Macs are less susceptible to them. - Nah

Just so you know, all of these have been rationales told to me by Mac users and many are far from young people who are style conscious with their electronics. A casual glance at some of the other electronics in their homes would convince you ‘style’ is a non-issue.

So no, I’m convinced you are totally wrong. Are there some who do buy for the reasons you mentioned? Sure, but I don’t know them nor do I socialize with them. In my case, I could care less about the superficial issues. I have both Mac & PC all-in-ones and have no axe to grind. I started out with a Mac because of FCP, but before long grew to really like the Mac OS and now use it as my ‘everyday driver’.
No I am not wrong. At least thee quarters of the students here use them, and they would not have used them prior to coming to university. They buy them with student loans and such (I think they may get a discount from the University bookstore as well), before coming here most of them would have had PC machines. They want them for the "cool" factor and because it is an upmarket item. These are people who use them for emails, web browsing and writing book reports. Ironically a lot of the more specific software they use is actually for Windows, and they have to run their Macbooks as a Windows machine, lol. They know nothing about computers for the most part.

I don't think too many people have reason to call tech support. Maybe with a Mac you need to, I don't know. In any event it is a lot easier and cheaper to get a Windows system serviced/repaired than an Apple system (Apple actively discourages "unauthorized" third party providers in this respect). That is one of the main reasons I will never get an Apple product. I don't want a "big brother" deciding what I can and can't do with my system after I buy it.

I have only ever had a virus once on any of my PC computers in 20+ years (that came from a shareware program I tried once). If you don't download "free" stuff and have a reasonable anti-virus program you are mostly safe from that sort of stuff.

Gamers of course use Windows systems, you would be stupid not to. Usually those sorts of folk know a bit more about computers than the average user here at the University though.

They are status symbols.

Last edited by Tugela; 06-17-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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post #60 of 62 Old 06-17-2019, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
No I am not wrong. At least thee quarters of the students here use them, and they would not have used them prior to coming to university. They buy them with student loans and such (I think they may get a discount from the University bookstore as well), before coming here most of them would have had PC machines. They want them for the "cool" factor and because it is an upmarket item. These are people who use them for emails, web browsing and writing book reports. Ironically a lot of the more specific software they use is actually for Windows, and they have to run their Macbooks as a Windows machine, lol. They know nothing about computers for the most part.

I don't think too many people have reason to call tech support. Maybe with a Mac you need to, I don't know. In any event it is a lot easier and cheaper to get a Windows system serviced/repaired than an Apple system (Apple actively discourages "unauthorized" third party providers in this respect). That is one of the main reasons I will never get an Apple product. I don't want a "big brother" deciding what I can and can't do with my system after I buy it.

I have only ever had a virus once on any of my PC computers in 20+ years (that came from a shareware program I tried once). If you don't download "free" stuff and have a reasonable anti-virus program you are mostly safe from that sort of stuff.

Gamers of course use Windows systems, you would be stupid not to. Usually those sorts of folk know a bit more about computers than the average user here at the University though.

They are status symbols.
The scope of my contacts goes beyond school kids, so I am in contact with an entirely different pool of people than you. For the group I associate with, the reasons I gave ARE the reasons they buy. Believe what you want based on the kids you're in contact with, but it does not apply to the adults I associate with. I'm totally unimpressed with what you think is the uber-knowledge of gamers. They are prone to the same bias as you.

It's clear your anti-Mac bias will prevent you from seeing the truth. As I said, I have both with no axe to grind. Each serves its purpose. These Mac/PC arguments are quite old and will go on forever.

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