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chasteven 07-14-2019 12:37 AM

Sony FDRAX700.No HDR playback on Samsung Q9FN
 
According to the manual I have to connect via USB to view HDR recordings on the TV.
The camcorder confirms connection with the info screen showing the same info as if a computer had been connected but the TV does not recognise the input

I do not understand why such a weird arrangement is required for HDR playback since HDR is played back fine via HDMI from my Panasonic 4K blu ray player.
As both the camcorder and the TV are both HDR compliant perhaps someone could advise me what is going on.
Thank you

markr041 07-14-2019 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasteven (Post 58294130)
According to the manual I have to connect via USB to view HDR recordings on the TV.
The camcorder confirms connection with the info screen showing the same info as if a computer had been connected but the TV does not recognise the input

I do not understand why such a weird arrangement is required for HDR playback since HDR is played back fine via HDMI from my Panasonic 4K blu ray player.
As both the camcorder and the TV are both HDR compliant perhaps someone could advise me what is going on.
Thank you

Simple. The HLG clips from the AX700 are NOT HDR compliant. The HDR spec is 10bit. The Sony HLG files are 8bit. So they are not recognized as HDR.

Ken Ross 07-14-2019 05:43 AM

Mark is correct, and I too have an AX700. The only RAW HLG clips I was able to play back directly on my LG TVs, were the GH5’s 10 bit HLG clips. Sony’s version of HLG on all their consumer cameras (including the A7iii) is only 8bit and thus not recognized as true HLG.

There are only 2 solutions to the issue that I’ve found, one very simple but now very elusive & expensive and the other very easy with a caveat.

First solution- I have always used an Oppo 203 BluRay player for HLG playback of Sony’s RAW files. I use any of the Oppo’s USB inputs using an SD card reader. The reason this works is that the Oppo converts the 8bit Sony HLG to 10bit and it does this on the fly. The files are still really 8bit, but the on the fly conversion to 10bit is enough to fool HLG-capable displays into reading them as ‘genuine’ 10bit HLG. It works flawlessly.

The problem with this solution is that the Oppo is no longer available at normal retail and can only be found at scalper prices ($1,200 in many cases). I have a new Panasonic 805 BluRay player and despite the rave reviews it has received, it will not play Sony’s 8bit HLG files via the USB inputs. It would appear that only the Oppo can do an 8bit to 10bit on the fly conversion.

Second solution- In the editing process, as long as your editor permits, you can export your project as a 10bit HLG compliant video. As long as your parameters are set correctly, you’ll now be able to play back your project in HLG on your TV.

The issue you’ll have is that you won’t be able to see your clips in HLG as you edit. I never found that to be a deal-breaker since it rarely caused significant issues in judging my final output.

The problem (for me) that I’ve come to realize over time, is that I’m not enthralled with the color quality I see in HLG. This was true even using the 10bit HLG capability of the GH5. I’m not sure why this should be, but for me it’s enough of an issue with Panasonic or Sony, 8bit or 10 bit, that I’ve essentially stopped using it. Others may disagree, but for me it’s an issue.

Edit: Although I can’t recall testing it, it’s my understanding that recent vintage Sony TVs will play back Sony 8bit HLG properly. This is obviously not a practical solution unless you were already seriously considering a Sony TV and verified this capability.

P&Struefan 07-14-2019 07:00 AM

I can't recall the exact model but I remember a seemingly no-frill (i.e. rather cheap) Sony LED TV labeled as 4K HDR almost a year ago could playback HLG files straight from the AX700 I was testing at a dealer with no problem. The output from the camcorder was via the USB port (I can't recall if it was a standard Micro USB or some sort of proprietary) and input into the TV via a standard USB port, not via HDMI. The TV had no problem recognizing the files as HLG and the playback could also be controlled from the camcorder. I didn't test if unaltered files had been offloaded first onto a USB stick with the folder structure intact and with enough throughput it would also be recognized by the TV. It looks like up to now this 8-bit HLG format has still been a Sony's exclusive that causes more than a few headaches once it has gone out of the realm of Sony hardware.

I suggest you use a log gamma mode such as S-log 2 on your camera with BT.2020 color space if you want to render your output to either HDR10 or standard Rec.709. It is far easier on the NLEs and has no comparability issues on virtually all new TVs made over the past year or two provided you set the output parameters in your NLE correctly.

chasteven 07-14-2019 08:02 AM

Thank you for your replies.I am getting very confused since according to the manual the only way of playing back HDR is through the USB connection to a HLG(HDR)TV.
Sony also state that the recordings made are to the worldwide HLG standards,so why are Sony stating quite clearly how the HDR footage can be played back when it seems that realistically this is not possible.
Surely a manufacturer cannot put such blatant false information in their manuals?

Ken Ross 07-14-2019 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by P&Struefan (Post 58294606)
I can't recall the exact model but I remember a seemingly no-frill (i.e. rather cheap) Sony LED TV labeled as 4K HDR almost a year ago could playback HLG files straight from the AX700 I was testing at a dealer with no problem. The output from the camcorder was via the USB port (I can't recall if it was a standard Micro USB or some sort of proprietary) and input into the TV via a standard USB port, not via HDMI. The TV had no problem recognizing the files as HLG and the playback could also be controlled from the camcorder. I didn't test if unaltered files had been offloaded first onto a USB stick with the folder structure intact and with enough throughput it would also be recognized by the TV. It looks like up to now this 8-bit HLG format has still been a Sony's exclusive that causes more than a few headaches once it has gone out of the realm of Sony hardware.

I suggest you use a log gamma mode such as S-log 2 on your camera with BT.2020 color space if you want to render your output to either HDR10 or standard Rec.709. It is far easier on the NLEs and has no comparability issues on virtually all new TVs made over the past year or two provided you set the output parameters in your NLE correctly.

Some NLEs such as FCP are fully capable of taking 8bit HLG files and rendering them out as 10bit HLG. Those play perfectly on any HLG-capable TV with no issues, just as if they were originally recorded as a compliant 10bit HLG format. This approach requires no grading.

Ken Ross 07-14-2019 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasteven (Post 58294750)
Thank you for your replies.I am getting very confused since according to the manual the only way of playing back HDR is through the USB connection to a HLG(HDR)TV.
Sony also state that the recordings made are to the worldwide HLG standards,so why are Sony stating quite clearly how the HDR footage can be played back when it seems that realistically this is not possible.
Surely a manufacturer cannot put such blatant false information in their manuals?

I think it's not more of an issue because most people edit their footage and you can take the 8bit HLG footage and render the final project out as 10bit HLG. That will play perfectly. I, like you, do tend to play my raw files when I come back from shooting, but I also edit my material. Of course I do like to see the raw footage, prior to editing, on my large screen TV. As I said before, my Oppo has rendered this 8bit issue moot for me, but if you don't have an Oppo, it's a real issue if you want to immediately see your HLG footage.

Ken Ross 07-14-2019 08:42 AM

Here's more info directly from the AX700 user guide. Notice the emphasis on using a Sony TV for HLG playback. That was what I had recalled from visiting this topic on a prior occasion.

To view images recorded with HDR on a TV, connect the camcorder to an HDR (HLG) compatible TV manufactured by Sony via a USB cable.
When you connect a TV with an HDMI cable, you need to change the image quality setting of the TV manually in order to display images properly. Set the image quality of the TV as follows;
Gamma: Setting compatible with HLG
Color mode: Setting compatible with BT.2020 or 709


I think when they speak about connecting to other brands of displays, they are talking about setting the controls to a 'faux HLG' setting. Many (most?) HDR TVs have a setting for simulating HDR and I think that may be what Sony is alluding to when trying to show HLG files on a non-Sony TV.

P&Struefan 07-14-2019 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasteven (Post 58294750)
Thank you for your replies.I am getting very confused since according to the manual the only way of playing back HDR is through the USB connection to a HLG(HDR)TV.
Sony also state that the recordings made are to the worldwide HLG standards,so why are Sony stating quite clearly how the HDR footage can be played back when it seems that realistically this is not possible.
Surely a manufacturer cannot put such blatant false information in their manuals?

FYI all new 4K TVs sold now are HDR capable up to certain levels of color depths and brightness. These two factors alone make not all HDR TVs equal. Aside from these visual perception considerations there is all also the difference in algorithm standard. HDR10 is the most common. The majority of TVs now are also Dolby Vision and HLG (standard 10-bit) compliant in addition to HDR10. The newest TVs are also HDR10+ compliant, a latest standard that varies the dynamic range of the video frame by frame similar to Dolby Vision, not just being constant like HDR10.

chasteven 07-14-2019 02:55 PM

Thank you for all your replies on this subject.
I think that Sony at best are being very economical with the truth on this subject since they say in the manual that if you use the P10 profile that this confirms to Its RBT2100 standards for HLG

Charles Almond 07-14-2019 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chasteven (Post 58296082)
Thank you for all your replies on this subject.
I think that Sony at best are being very economical with the truth on this subject since they say in the manual that if you use the P10 profile that this confirms to Its RBT2100 standards for HLG

Sony also state that HLG is a system of high dynamic range TV defined in the international standard Recommendation ITU-R-BT2100.
From your detailed replies it is quite obvious that Sony are not conforming to these standards.If they were then the TV would recognise the HLG(HDR) recordings.
I will contact Sony in the UK regarding this issue and suggest they look at this forum since as it stands Sony are making very precise claims which are blatantly false
If Sony cannot correct this issue via a firmware update then it is essential that information is put on their website that this camcorder does not comply with these standards and that such information is changed in their manuals.
I am surprised that such a large company would make such blatant errors

Ken Ross 07-14-2019 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charles Almond (Post 58296306)
Sony also state that HLG is a system of high dynamic range TV defined in the international standard Recommendation ITU-R-BT2100.
From your detailed replies it is quite obvious that Sony are not conforming to these standards.If they were then the TV would recognise the HLG(HDR) recordings.
I will contact Sony in the UK regarding this issue and suggest they look at this forum since as it stands Sony are making very precise claims which are blatantly false
If Sony cannot correct this issue via a firmware update then it is essential that information is put on their website that this camcorder does not comply with these standards and that such information is changed in their manuals.
I am surprised that such a large company would make such blatant errors

It's not just this camera, it's any Sony consumer camera/camcorder that professes to do HLG. As I've said, the obstacles aren't insurmountable with the right equipment or NLE, but they're obstacles that buyers shouldn't have to deal with.

You are absolutely correct that the limitations of Sony's 8bit HLG should be noted in the advertising & manuals.

Sony will be discussing news this week about new cameras that will be coming out in the near future. Hopefully these HLG limitations will be addressed in the next iteration.


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