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post #1 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony A7RIV- Here we go again

I continue to scratch my head at what Sony is thinking. With all the rumors and all the fanfare, still no mention of 4K60p!! Even with the understanding that this is a stills camera first and video camera second, you would have though a brand new late 2019 camera with new sensor & processor, would have 4K60p.

I remain convinced they can’t figure out the overheating issue. I never bought the thought it might be a processor related issue. A bigger body might have helped. I think they need some of the Panasonic R&D guys to come onboard.

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/
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post #2 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:33 AM
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Ken, I will wait for the GH6 since I know it will have the best video specs of any hybrid mirrorless.
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post #3 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:38 AM
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Here's a better link: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony...lly-announced/

"The camera precisely shifts the sensor in 1 or 0.5-pixel increments to capture 16 separate pixel-shifted images containing a total of 963.2 million pixels worth of data then composited into a 240.8 million pixels (19008 x 12672 pixels) image". That's some crazy resolution!

The "A7r" models are marketed more for stills than videos so Sony likely doesn't think 4k60 is a critical feature. Their biggest threat in the spec sheet was from Panasonic's S1R which had better pixel shift technology (higher final resolution, and in-camera). Now Sony pixel shift has surpassed Panasonic in resolution but still lags in convenience. Personally I'd much rather have pixel shift in camera (Panasonic) than on the desktop with crappy Windows software (Sony).
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post #4 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I’d still bet it was the old overheating bugaboo that stopped its inclusion. In a high end camera like this, it still should have been included. Its absence is telling.
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post #5 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Ken, I will wait for the GH6 since I know it will have the best video specs of any hybrid mirrorless.
I hear ya, Joe. I’ll stick with my AX700 for video until something better comes along. Hopefully Panasonic will switch to PDAF for the GH6, but I’m not holding my breath.

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post #6 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 08:48 AM
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For anyone looking for a high resolution full frame 6thAve is selling the 50mp Canon 5DS for $1,199.99 w/free shipping on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-5...a/201371891546
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post #7 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 09:53 AM
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I'm pretty sure they have witheld the 4K/60p along with 4K/30p and in-camera 10-bit, 4:2:2 sampling for the A7S III. Also pretty sure that camera will have more tricks up its sleeves via the HDMI out port than any of the hybrid cameras they have had to date including this A7R IV which is intended more for stills shooters. Not sure but the price likely will be in the range of $4K to $5K, rather than "only" $3K+ as this stills sibling.

Can't have 4K/60p now on the new R or the S would have a harder time selling.
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post #8 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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The reason I don’t think the absence of 4K60p on the A7RIV is for fear of scalping sales of the upcoming S model, is history.

Both the prior versions of the A7R & A7S had the same 4K30p capability. It would have been easy for Sony to limit video to HD resolutions in the R rather than provide the same 4K30p. No, the major differentiator of the S was its lowlight capability. Sony could have done the same with the newest iterations. Include 4K60p in both, but put a lower resolution, bigger pixel sensor for much better lowlight. But they didn’t.

Of course we’re assuming 4K60p will be in the next S model and, at this point, I would no longer say that’s a sure thing. Likely yes, sure thing, no. If anyone was listening to the Sony presser, it was almost embarrassing to hear how meager the applause was when the Sony Rep repeatedly asked the audience, “So what do you think of that?”. Yikes!

No, it was very clear the audience was expecting more.

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post #9 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I continue to scratch my head at what Sony is thinking. With all the rumors and all the fanfare, still no mention of 4K60p!! Even with the understanding that this is a stills camera first and video camera second, you would have though a brand new late 2019 camera with new sensor & processor, would have 4K60p.

I remain convinced they can’t figure out the overheating issue. I never bought the thought it might be a processor related issue. A bigger body might have helped. I think they need some of the Panasonic R&D guys to come onboard.

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/
The problem is the thermal efficiency of the processor and the body size of the camera. You will not get these higher video modes until they introduce a next generation processor.

Panasonic has more efficient processors, Sony admitted this quite a while back. That is the reason they are able to do 4k60p while Sony cannot at this point (with R type bodies anyway).
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post #10 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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The problem is the thermal efficiency of the processor and the body size of the camera. You will not get these higher video modes until they introduce a next generation processor.

Panasonic has more efficient processors, Sony admitted this quite a while back. That is the reason they are able to do 4k60p while Sony cannot at this point (with R type bodies anyway).
This is a next gen processor and it's discussed in the Sony literature on the new camera. I think they need better heat sinks and that probably requires a bigger body. It's absurd that after all this time they refuse to redesign the body to be slightly bigger so as to better dispel the heat. In fact this probably could have been done with the prior processor. I don't think any user would be so turned off by a slightly bigger body that it would drive them to a different company's cameras.

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post #11 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 06:37 PM
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Sony's game is not about customer expectations. It is and has always been about careful market segmentation. I don't think the key reason they have been holding out the release of the S III for so long is to have the new camera able to shoot at ISO 1 Million but rather some exclusive video-only features the other lesser models don't have.

Haven't you compared the 4K/60p and 4K/30 or 24p from either the GH5 or GH5S closely? They are not created equal. The IQ of the lesser framerate footage is still superior. This may be because that's the limit of the Panasonic processor or could also be because the processor's max speed is throttled down by the firmware to control the heat, we never know. And once suppose the A7S III actually comes out with the 4K/60p, its IQ as compared to the slower framerates or the full blown 4K/60p on their true cinema cameras may not be equal for that same reason of hardware limitations or careful market segmentation. Again we will never know.
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post #12 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Well that feature differentiation may be true of the A7Siii, only time will tell, but the major differentiator of the A7Sii was its lowlight. That was what was always pointed out as the selling point relative to the other A7 models, it could see in the dark.

However, if you remember, the AF was also significantly poorer in the A7Sii than in the other A7 models. So if it was only about features, superior AF certainly should have been a ‘feature’ of a camera whose purpose was video first and stills second. It wasn’t.

We shall see what the A7Siii offers, but judging by many comments I’ve seen (and the ‘applause’, or lack thereof, at today’s Sony event), Sony is 0 for 1 in the first of the new models...certainly among videographers. All those breathless rumors of 4K60p and even 8K, crashed & burned big time.

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post #13 of 23 Old 07-16-2019, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
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This is a next gen processor and it's discussed in the Sony literature on the new camera. I think they need better heat sinks and that probably requires a bigger body. It's absurd that after all this time they refuse to redesign the body to be slightly bigger so as to better dispel the heat. In fact this probably could have been done with the prior processor. I don't think any user would be so turned off by a slightly bigger body that it would drive them to a different company's cameras.
No, it is not a next gen processor, it is the same one as the a7III and a6400. If you read their press release carefully you should notice that the processor is described as "latest generation" in the overview points, but is not mentioned again at all in the more detailed descriptions of the new tech in the camera. The talk about all the other new components and tech in the camera, but say nothing about the processor. That means it is the same processor as used in the cameras from the last year or so. The processor capability (as measured by the oversampling of a direct readout image, which is 2.4x on the mark IV compared to 1.8x on the mark III) is exactly the same as the a6400 (as well as more recent older cameras). They do not have a new processor in this camera, so it is no surprise that it's video capabilities are similar to recent Sony models.

As for heat dissipation, it does have a larger body than the mark III, especially the grip which is much deeper. But, the mark IV has to work 33% harder to process the same image as the mark III due to the extra pixels that need to be handled, so you are not getting any net extra cooling.

Remember, this is primarily a high pixel specialist stills camera, which can shoot decent video as a secondary function. The video centric version of the a7 is the S camera, and that still has to arrive. That will have a lot fewer pixels it has to process, which means that something like 4k60 is realistic. It may even introduce the real next gen processor, since that is the camera type that really needs it. Waiting for the new processor may well be the reason why the a7SIII was delayed for so long.

One thing this camera will do is put some pretty impressive AF capabilities in the R line and bring it well before the mark III in this respect. Not to mention what sounds like a very nice viewfinder.
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post #14 of 23 Old 07-17-2019, 04:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I stand corrected. I was almost certain I heard the Sony presenter mention a new processor, which made sense given the greater pixel count and processing necessary for that as well as the improved AF. That’s apparently not the case as per this CNET blurb below which is quite specific regarding the processor:

”As with its predecessor, the a7R IV has built-in 5-axis image stabilization, which can reduce shake by up to 5.5 stops, according to Sony. It has the same Bionz X processor and tilting 1.44M-dot touchscreen display as the Mark III.”

We’ll see what the S brings to the table, but after the new R’s reveal, by no means, IMO, is 4K60p ‘in the bag’ for the upcoming S. Many were expecting it with the new R, which was not at all unrealistic given its 2019, the camera costs nearly $3,500 and Panasonic has had it for 2 years in the GH5. Yet it still didn’t happen. And whatever anyone says about ‘differentiation’, both the prior S and R had the same 4K30p resolutions. The S differentiator was the greatly improved lowlight as the result of a less dense sensor with larger pixels.

As I’ve said before, anyone listening to the presentation was painfully aware of how underwhelmed the audience appeared to be. I spoke to a video buddy of mine after the presentation and he said he actually felt embarrassed for the presenter. I must admit I had that same feeling.

Predicting what Sony will do next has proven to be a fool’s errand.

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post #15 of 23 Old 07-17-2019, 02:35 PM
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I think that it is "new" compared to the one in the mark III, but not new compared to their other cameras.

Bionz X is just the trade name for the processor, there are probably different versions. Sony's version of the Digic name.
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post #16 of 23 Old 07-17-2019, 06:48 PM
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After all is said and done if we were stills photographers this new Sony would be a really good camera compared to the current competition even at this price. The native resolution, the pixel-shift resolution, increased dynamic range, focusing capability, high continuous frame rates, large buffer etc. Not much else left to ask for except, ironically, a chunkier and heavier body to give a better support for handholding all those 5 pounds-plus mega lenses in the field.

Still pokey 8-bit "instant HDR" HLG? No real video pros I know of touch this feature for good reasons. Not surprising as we already know.

These video shortcomings don't mean much, or often at all for stills shooters.
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post #17 of 23 Old 07-18-2019, 12:51 PM
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I did a bit more searching and it is possible that the camera is actually using the same processor variant as the mark III. The Bionz X is a system on a chip based around a ARM core and a image processing unit. There are a number of variants, some with a more basic IPU, others with one or two of the current main IPU. Both the ARM core and the IPU used in most variants have not changed in years. That would appear to be the issue as it relates to video specs. Those things are determined in hardware by the IPU they are using, and if that is the same then the specs will be the same.

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post #18 of 23 Old 07-18-2019, 12:58 PM
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post #19 of 23 Old 07-18-2019, 06:55 PM
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You can see the camera wobbling around on the tripod at 2:54...

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post #20 of 23 Old 07-19-2019, 05:18 PM
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Ball heads suck , fluid heads for hybrid shooting is the way to go for no wobbling.
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post #21 of 23 Old 07-19-2019, 07:05 PM
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I think I have settled down on the tripod head + leg combo for this camera. I believe the one above Jogiba uses is adequate or perhaps more solid than mine but I have found the weak link to our range of support used for shooting video with the camera is likely to be the lens extension. Despite being quite rigid enough when moving the camera on the tripod with the lens fully extended at 3000mm, it certainly isn't when you have to manually focus it by turning the focus ring, no matter how gently. I can wait a second or so for the wobble or shake from my hand focusing it to die down and start shooting but the problem is the wobble itself often prevents me from judging the critical focus using either the LCD screen or VF. The peaking can't always be trusted for 100% accuracy and I need to clearly see the outline of fine details in the image to be sure if they are really in focus.

At shorter zooming distances there is less of a problem, the shorter the less and I often haven't had to use manual focus.

The ideal solution would probably be some sort of additional lens support either right behind the focus ring if there's need to constantly zoom in and out or under the extended section of the lens if the shooting is done at the fixed 3000mm position. The Manfrotto support shown in the previous demo video looks less than ideal to me for many reasons and I definitely have no expertise in 3D printing the parts I need. So what is left for me is more practice.
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post #22 of 23 Old 07-19-2019, 10:05 PM
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Sorry the above post should be on the Nikon P1000 thread not here. I saw Joe's camera in the picture and I mixed it up.
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post #23 of 23 Old 07-20-2019, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
The Manfrotto support shown in the previous demo video looks less than ideal to me for many reasons and I definitely have no expertise in 3D printing the parts I need. So what is left for me is more practice.
The lightweight carbon tripod with Benro ball head and 3D printed part is not my Manfrotto setup. This is:



BTW here is a Sony A7R IV video from Chris and Jordan:
Quote:
Sony just announced the a7R IV, its new high resolution flagship camera. DPReview TV was on hand for the launch and Jordan is here with a preview of the new model. Unfortunately, Chris picked this week to go on a big fishing trip, but we know a good website where he can learn about the camera when he gets home.
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