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post #31 of 42 Old 09-11-2019, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I agree, but Sony cameras (even the little RX100's) already down- or over-sample from 5.7K to produce 4K video. And you have to really squint to see the difference between non-oversampled 4K and 6K or oversampled 4K. Diminishing returns on resolution. Increased frame rate capability is a more interesting frontier I think, not more resolution improvements
It does make a difference in subject matter with high detail, such as anything with vegetation for example. It really depends on what your subject matter is.

Talking heads, it does not matter, since you are focused on the macro detail rather than the micro detail. Natural history on the other hand, you need that detail.
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post #32 of 42 Old 09-11-2019, 04:47 PM
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What many people forget in discussing resolution is what size screen are you viewing on and how far from the screen are you.

There are detailed charts that clearly show how large a screen you need to see these differences in resolution. To clearly differentiate 4K from 6K (or even 8K) you need at least an 80” screen viewing from about 8’ (I’m approximating). If you have a smaller screen at that distance, you’re kidding yourself if you think you’ll see these differences. Even differentiating HD from 4K requires relatively close distances from a more typical 65” screen.

This is why I will continue to yawn when manufacturers tout 6K, 8K or beyond...and you know we will see resolutions beyond 8K. How else can they sell more cameras and more displays?
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post #33 of 42 Old 09-11-2019, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
And what a shame that is.
I believe Zacuto has, or used to have and accessory VF to hook on any camera via HDMI. This VF is quite bulky but yet wouldn't look too out of place on a modular block like the ZCam E2 or cinema camera form factor. It is also highly adjustable with good resolution and refresh rate as I heard from some people who had used it.

Personally I only shoot with an LCD screen anyway, either built-in (preferably fully articulated) or external. 7" is mostly enough to allow you to see what you need to see but this popular size looks to be a bit cumbersome on cameras with the smaller size like the E2 so if your priority is maneuverability it often gets in the way rather than being useful.
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post #34 of 42 Old 09-11-2019, 07:48 PM
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Homework assignment for Mark- Check out the EVF by Zacuto. There will be a quiz.
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post #35 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 08:46 AM
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There's a moderately interesting comparison of the BMPCC 6K with a pre-production Z CAM E2 S6 here:


He suggests they may use the same Super 35 sensor.
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post #36 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tugela View Post
It does make a difference in subject matter with high detail, such as anything with vegetation for example. It really depends on what your subject matter is.

Talking heads, it does not matter, since you are focused on the macro detail rather than the micro detail. Natural history on the other hand, you need that detail.
The GH5 oversamples 4K, the GH5s does not, and I cannot see this difference to any significant degree, meaning if there are differences in the default look I can match them in post.

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post #37 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
What many people forget in discussing resolution is what size screen are you viewing on and how far from the screen are you.

There are detailed charts that clearly show how large a screen you need to see these differences in resolution. To clearly differentiate 4K from 6K (or even 8K) you need at least an 80” screen viewing from about 8’ (I’m approximating). If you have a smaller screen at that distance, you’re kidding yourself if you think you’ll see these differences. Even differentiating HD from 4K requires relatively close distances from a more typical 65” screen.

This is why I will continue to yawn when manufacturers tout 6K, 8K or beyond...and you know we will see resolutions beyond 8K. How else can they sell more cameras and more displays?
I generally agree but *IF* the pixel sizes on the displays were the same, it would be easy to spot because the 6K/8K image is now blown up in scale yet the per pixel sharpness has not degraded. This is like an 8x10 photo enlargement that didn't suffer when blown up from the 4x5 size. But I agree, if the screen frame sizes are the same it comes down to seating distance only. No surprise then that displays are getting bigger.

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INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
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post #38 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudstrewn View Post
There's a moderately interesting comparison of the BMPCC 6K with a pre-production Z CAM E2 S6 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-cWvAQCXGE

He suggests they may use the same Super 35 sensor.
I don't take exception to anything he said about the cameras but he is manifestly wrong in some of his complaints about DaVinci Resolve. He is abjectly wrong to say you can't copy BRAW settings from one clip globally to all the others, he just doesn't know how. (It's trivial). He also did not understand why his waveform monitor looks different or even over exposed because he didn't apply the correct input gamut and gamma color spaces to his clips. Lastly, he didn't seem able to match the look attributing this to a difference in how the cameras were recording the number of stops above and below middle gray. Although there may indeed be that difference, when I match clips I do a split screen that puts the images, side by side, or top to bottom, or displaying only the difference. Using these tools I can match them identically where you would not have been able to tell them apart in any of the scenes he chose. As it was, most of the scenes appeared slightly richer in the P6K which I found preferable, but not relevant since either camera clip could have had that look if chosen.

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INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
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post #39 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
I generally agree but *IF* the pixel sizes on the displays were the same, it would be easy to spot because the 6K/8K image is now blown up in scale yet the per pixel sharpness has not degraded. This is like an 8x10 photo enlargement that didn't suffer when blown up from the 4x5 size. But I agree, if the screen frame sizes are the same it comes down to seating distance only. No surprise then that displays are getting bigger.
Tom, even that’s a problem. I spend more time on the displays threads (obviously a far more active area than our camcorder threads) and most people are already hitting the size limits they can reasonably accommodate. Many condos, homes and apartments will have problems accommodating displays in excess of 80” where, if seating distances are close enough, some actual slight benefit can be discerned. I’ve got a 77” OLED and although I can see some difference between HD and 4K at my approximately 8’ seating distance, I’d be lying if I told you it was day & night. It’s not.

I can honestly tell you that I see more requests for OLED screen sizes less than 55” than a wish for sizes in excess of 80”. People are also very resistant to moving furniture closer to their display so as to be able to enjoy higher resolutions. Chalk that one up primarily to spousal resistance.

Gigantic 8K screens will simply be a real issue in many/most cases. In some cases it will be a limitation of wall space, in other situations it will be a spousal/partner resistance issue and in many cases it will simply be price. I don’t see resolutions in excess of 4K being widely discerned by owners of 8K displays. They may feel good about having an 8K display for bragging rights, but chances are they won’t actually see the difference between 4K & 8K. We haven’t even discussed content. 4K has been around for several years and there’s still a dearth of content. 8K content? Good luck.

IMO, the benefits from well produced HDR exceed that of the resolution differences by a significant degree (and they can be appreciated at any screen size)...and I’m a huge fan of 4K’s higher resolution as you know. But the physiology of the human eye is what it is and we can’t ignore that.
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post #40 of 42 Old 09-13-2019, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Roper View Post
The GH5 oversamples 4K, the GH5s does not, and I cannot see this difference to any significant degree, meaning if there are differences in the default look I can match them in post.

That is because the oversample in the GH5 is relatively mild. It is still not enough to approach real 4K.
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post #41 of 42 Old 09-14-2019, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Lots of news lately about new cameras. LensProToGo tested the p6k.


HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #42 of 42 Old 09-14-2019, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
I can honestly tell you that I see more requests for OLED screen sizes less than 55” than a wish for sizes in excess of 80”.
Probably price and delivery, not the space at home. I don't believe that even a small condo has no space on a wall for an 80" TV.

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