Samsung Galaxy (Rear) Three-Lens Phone Videos - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old 10-13-2019, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung Galaxy (Rear) Three-Lens Phone Videos

New premium phones from Samsung have three lenses. Having three lenses - ultra-wide, wide and telephoto - that you can choose at the flick of a finger is really neat. Stabilization works well (ultrawide does not need it, as you will see. And HDR10+ video too. So, how do the 4K videos look?

First, two HDR10+ 4K video clips straight from the phone - if you have any late-model Samsung phone you can see this in HDR, or a Samsung or TCL TV:

Ultrawide 4K HDR10+:


Wide 4K HDR10+:


Now, two real 4K videos (not HDR10+). First, opening day at the new Museum of Modern Art:


Washington Square Park, including a test of the audio (music!):

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post #2 of 10 Old 10-15-2019, 04:19 PM
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HDR10+ video not playing on Windows 10, has audio but screen frozen on one image. Will try it on Samsung TV later.
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INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #3 of 10 Old 10-15-2019, 06:51 PM
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On my Samsung Galaxy S4 Tablet's SDR screen, the videos look surprisingly good. Shadow areas that normally appear blocked up in typical cellphone footage show good detail while the black level doesn't seem to be set too high. Highlight detail is also good with less blowouts. Color balance looks good and color saturation is no longer Samsung like, i.e. oversaturated, which is a good thing.

Overall, a good image rendering even in SDR from a cellphone.
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post #4 of 10 Old 10-15-2019, 07:14 PM
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Forgot to mention that all these new Samsung mobile devices that can shoot in either HDR10 or 10+ appear to have a definite advantage over other devices or cameras that shoot in HLG or Rec.2020 log gamma in terms of compatability and adaptability for online viewing. HLG has so far been like a crab-shoot and Rec.2020 log gamma graded to Rec.709 requires careful manipulation and conversion, not least a true 10-bit Rec.2020 HDR monitor plugged into your NLE and not just a viewing simulation on your Rec.709 computer display.

I like this workflow from Samsung's new cellphones. Relatively simple and effortless. If you set the parameters right while shooting, you can simply trim, cut and merge the clips and upload to YouTube, which seems to handle the files very well, inputting good looking videos in both SDR and HDR for all kinds and levels of viewing devices. Not some weird looking psychedelic crap that you like to switch off from after 5 seconds of viewing.

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post #5 of 10 Old 10-16-2019, 06:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&Struefan View Post
Forgot to mention that all these new Samsung mobile devices that can shoot in either HDR10 or 10+ appear to have a definite advantage over other devices or cameras that shoot in HLG or Rec.2020 log gamma in terms of compatability and adaptability for online viewing. HLG has so far been like a crab-shoot and Rec.2020 log gamma graded to Rec.709 requires careful manipulation and conversion, not least a true 10-bit Rec.2020 HDR monitor plugged into your NLE and not just a viewing simulation on your Rec.709 computer display.

I like this workflow from Samsung's new cellphones. Relatively simple and effortless. If you set the parameters right while shooting, you can simply trim, cut and merge the clips and upload to YouTube, which seems to handle the files very well, inputting good looking videos in both SDR and HDR for all kinds and levels of viewing devices. Not some weird looking psychedelic crap that you like to switch off from after 5 seconds of viewing.
How do you trim cut and merge and *render* an HDR10+ video from HDR10-+ clips? What software renders that? And how to keep the metadata? I uploaded HDR10+ clips, not videos, precisely because I know of no software that renders in HDR10+ or even has a transform (ACES, for example) from it to anything else (like REC709).
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post #6 of 10 Old 10-16-2019, 09:33 PM
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Here's a little primer on HDR10+; the intent of the "plus" format is scene by scene or even frame by frame dynamic metadata. Whenever you convert from a larger color volume (BT2100) to (Rec.709), there will be code values in the center that are shared but as you approach the boundaries of the larger space, the smaller space no longer contains any corresponding data values. In other words, for an average scene no difference, but for a very bright or very dark or very colorful scene the BT2100 code values fall outside the range of Rec.709. There are no implications for HDR but the SDR layer will play much better. So the intent of HDR10+ is better playback of the SDR layer with no advantage for an HDR device that supports the full range of the recording.

Authoring HDR10+ is exactly the same for the HDR layer as regular HDR10 except that it is followed by a computer analysis. After the analysis, a panel is opened that has various curves with handles you can adjust to tweak the image so that each scene looks its best, but the image being tweaked is for the SDR or the <4000Nit display. For Dolby Vision it is exactly that; any level below 4000 nit, 3000, 2000, 1000, 200 etc. For HDR10+ it's really only the SDR layer being adjusted at all. Once you've made these adjustments, by scene or by frame, you save the results in a *.json sidecar file. The file is attached to the HDR video file inside a container, like *.MKV. when the file is loaded by the playback device, the metadata is also loaded which points to different tone mapping for each frame or clip for the entire length of the video.

I don't think YouTube yet supports HDR10+. When I encoded an HDR10+ file around a year ago when it was announced, it would not play on YouTube then. If it would, the problem it solves is the problem we have with the YouTube SDR conversion that looks flat and weak compared regular, non-HDR content, a problem again caused by the smaller color volume of SDR space.

When I saw the Galaxy HDR10+ videos, the SDR looked great(!!) which gave hope that HDR10+ was working, but then it was the HDR stream itself that would not play, exactly as happened to me a year ago when I tried it. Unfortunately, I've never seen HDR10+ high dynamic range video because I've not had a play with a compatible Samsung device, however the HDR layer did play fine on my Samsung, and I don't know when you would see the benefit of the enhanced SDR layer on a device that is already compatible with the HDR layer. My Samsung which is not HDR10+ compatible, plays the HDR10+ fine because it just ignores the dynamic metadata which it doesn't need anyway to play the HDR stream. Presumably there could be some tablets or phones that don't have the full brightness >1000 nit of HDR, could use the HDR10+ scene by scene tone mappings, and would be the beneficiaries of HDR10+.
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HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #7 of 10 Old 10-17-2019, 05:10 AM
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Actually, in the world of video displays, the intent of HDR10+ was somewhat different. Samsung wanted to have their own version of Dolby Vision. DV bests HDR10 by looking at the display its being played on and seeing its limitations in terms of its ability to produce peak whites. In that way DV will not clip whites the way the same material, mastered in HDR10, would. The DV whites will be less bright on a display with a lower peak nit output, but detail in the whites will be preserved.

OTOH, HDR10 will send the same peak white signal on any display, regardless of its peak white capability. Thus, on displays not capable of producing the same peak whites the content was recorded at, the whites will clip. The degree of clipping is based on the delta between the recording’s peak white encoding and the display’s peak brightness capability. If the delta is large enough, the results can be ugly

In addition, DV does a dynamic scene by scene adjustment as opposed to HDR10, which uses one value for the entire video.

HDR10+, in theory, attempts to do what DV does in terms of dynamically adjusting on a scene by scene basis. I haven’t heard of HDR10+ being able to match the content’s peak white output to the display’s capability.

At this point HDR10+ doesn’t have the same buy-in in the professional world as does DV. Of course it’s also newer. I’ve read a number of pros claiming they see very little difference between HDR10 and HDR10+. I haven’t seen HDR10+ myself, since none of my displays have HDR10+ capability, but all have DV capability. At this point there is very little professional content encoded in HDR10+.
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post #8 of 10 Old 10-17-2019, 10:19 AM
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HDR10+ actually does tone map, for a tv with peak nits between SDR (about 220) and the mastering monitor, (up to 4000), it interpolates. This is the same as DV with the exception that up to 4 monitors can optionally be used, each one dedicated to a separate trim pass; for 600, 2000, 3000 and 4000 nit. The user’s tv then interpolates between its nearest neighbors. With HDR10+ only one mastering monitor is used, (HDR) and the SDR trim pass is graded on this monitor in a HDR tone mapped to 220 nits for equivalent SDR. The user’s tv interpolates between the two points to tone map to its peak nits. With either DV or HDR10(+) the majority of mastering work uses the Sony DVM 300 which is a 1000 nit monitor.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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post #9 of 10 Old 10-18-2019, 08:36 PM
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At the end of the day what really counts is do the audience see the difference, preferably on widely available, standard tools? And in the case of Mark's four clips above, yes. I later watched all 4 on my purely consumer grade Sony 4K HDR TV whose peak brightness I suspect would be around 400-500 nits at best (because I never looked for the specs when I bought it) yet the difference between the first two HDR10+ clips and the last that is supposedly shot in standard SDR is readily noticeable.

Though my TV is certainly not HDR10+, the first two clips show not only more pleasing brightness but better dynamic range. Both the shadow areas and bright highlights clearly look better than the SDR version displayed on my tablet and reveal more minute detail than what can be seen in the SDR version. The olor looks perfctly normal, no weird shifts. The last SDR clip on the other hand, apparently looks a bit darker while at the same time shows some highlight clippings on the musician's face and some part of his clothing. The clip also exhibits a subtle flattened gamma look that is quite similar to the graded footage when the luma levels are pushed a little too far in the NLE. The color is also more saturated but I guess this is par for the course for typical footage shot with Samsung devices.

Last year Sony came out with cellphones advertised as capable of shooting in HLG (of course, only 8-bit as per Sony's usual practice). Unfortunately the footage didn't play well on whatever widely used platform most typical consumers used, including Sony's own HDR TVs via YouTube. The only places where it appeared to work was on the phone screens themselves or via a direct hookup to newer Sony HDR TVs from the phones. As far as I know Sony is still pushing this, albeit a lot more quietly, on its latest 2019 cellphones but I haven't seen anyone who use the phones even bother, for a good reason.
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post #10 of 10 Old 10-18-2019, 09:27 PM
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That’s the point, I’ve never seen a HDR10 delta so large that it was ugly or the audience would care that wasn’t just a poorly shot or authored HDR10; there isn’t going to be a poorly authored DV complement since only professional authoring by the 5 major studios are doing it but any kid with a tablet/or phone can upload badly shot or badly authored HDR10 for YouTube.

HDR Colorist and Conversions
INTO THE CAVE OF WONDERS
Directed by MANUEL BENITO DE VALLE Produced by PEDRO PABLO FIGUEROA
Cast MANUEL ANGEL REINA, CLAUDIA GARROTE
LOVETHEFRAME STORIES, SOUNDTRACKS AND FILMS
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