The new Fujifilm XT4 visits a local lake - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 05-17-2020, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The new Fujifilm XT4 visits a local lake

Fujifilm XT4 with Fuji 18-135 lens shot in 4K60p with the Provia simulation:

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post #2 of 16 Old 05-17-2020, 07:40 AM
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Has exposure stepping in shutter priority mode gone yet?
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post #3 of 16 Old 05-17-2020, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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It's still there but definitely improved. I used a shutter speed of 1/120 for this video and it's really minimal. Most users pooh pooh it, saying they use full manual 'as all pros do'. Obviously I don't, so I guess that puts me in the enthusiast class.

I had returned an XT3 for that issue. In the XT4 not only is it minimized, but the AF is truly excellent. For me a bit of stepping is worth it for the Fuji colors and overall PQ. The colors are just the best I've ever seen. Flesh tones are just beautiful.
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post #4 of 16 Old 05-17-2020, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I should have mentioned there are quite a few film simulations for those that are into this.
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post #5 of 16 Old 05-17-2020, 01:23 PM
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2:55 - very smooth AF, but I expect more AI/ML and whatever other buzzwords one may use for more clever focusing. The camera should have recognized panning, the subjects in the back, an obstruction in the front, and should have kept focus on the back at least for another couple of seconds waiting for the camera to stop moving, then the stupid electronic brains would realize you wanted to shoot the tree, not the people. It should have focused on the tree when you jerked the camera back, but it refocused on the tree while you were still panning left.

Same with those bellies five seconds earlier. You keep the camera relatively steady, it is focused on the back, there are two obstructing objects moving through the frame, the camera does not follow them, why the heck it refocused?

Not impressed. It is not 1995 after all.
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post #6 of 16 Old 05-18-2020, 03:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
2:55 - very smooth AF, but I expect more AI/ML and whatever other buzzwords one may use for more clever focusing. The camera should have recognized panning, the subjects in the back, an obstruction in the front, and should have kept focus on the back at least for another couple of seconds waiting for the camera to stop moving, then the stupid electronic brains would realize you wanted to shoot the tree, not the people. It should have focused on the tree when you jerked the camera back, but it refocused on the tree while you were still panning left.

Same with those bellies five seconds earlier. You keep the camera relatively steady, it is focused on the back, there are two obstructing objects moving through the frame, the camera does not follow them, why the heck it refocused?

Not impressed. It is not 1995 after all.
There are many AF adjustments for speed, ‘stickiness’ to a subject and tracking AF. The fact is you may wish the AF to perform differently at different times. In fact, as you pan, you may actually want the camera to refocus on different objects. How would the camera know your intent unless there was a means to tell it so? Your comment is silly and not particularly thoughtful of videography in the real world.

It was my first day out with the camera and my intent was to test out basic functions (PQ, basic AF, color, detail etc.). The AF, without any dialing in, was extremely fast, responsive and as reliable as the best Sony AF system I’ve used.

In terms of overall image quality and functionality, the camera passed with ‘flying colors’. If you think a 1995 camera could match this overall performance, you’re on drugs.
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post #7 of 16 Old 05-22-2020, 11:20 AM
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How would the camera know your intent unless there was a means to tell it so? Your comment is silly and not particularly thoughtful of videography in the real world.
My comment takes into account improvements made in the field of AI/ML in the last two decades. I expect more brains from 2020 camera than from a 1995 camera.
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post #8 of 16 Old 05-22-2020, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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My comment takes into account improvements made in the field of AI/ML in the last two decades. I expect more brains from 2020 camera than from a 1995 camera.
Then you expect too much from AI/ML. If the shooter isn't sure what he wants as he pans, how will the camera? If one day you decide as you pan you want objects that are coming into the FOV to be in focus and the next day it's important to you that the subject behind the tree stays in focus as you pan, how the hell is the camera going to know? C'mon, Ungermann, put your thinking cap on. Many of these cameras have the ability to do one or the other when they are told to do so. There is no other way it will ever know. If that day ever comes, then all the creativity of videography will be gone. You'll need nobody behind the lens. You might as well use an iPhone.

AI isn't even close in videography to where you 'think' it should be. Most of us buy cameras for the critical areas of PQ that are important, great color, AF, DR, detail and IBIS among others. Cameras of a 1995 vintage don't cut it. Maybe for you. Is that what you're using? The fact that a camera hasn't autommatically figured out that as I pan I want to keep a particular person in focus as opposed to other things that are coming into the FOV, isn't important to me at all.
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post #9 of 16 Old 05-22-2020, 04:45 PM
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If the shooter isn't sure what he wants as he pans, how will the camera?
It should be trained by the manufacturer, of course. If the shooter does not know, the camera would not do any worse by following the most predictable path than doing something else. It WILL do something anyway, focusing here or there, focusing on the center or focusing on the highest-contrast part or focusing on a moving object or NOT focusing on the moving object, it will do SOMETHING. In this case, it rather should be doing the most predictable action.

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If one day you decide as you pan you want objects that are coming into the FOV to be in focus and the next day it's important to you that the subject behind the tree stays in focus as you pan, how the hell is the camera going to know?
If I decide to do something that goes outside of the most common path, I would turn AF off, as simple as that, and the camera will store this use case as an exception. Moreover, if the camera is Wi-Fi enabled, it will send this exception back to the manufacturer - with my approval, of course - where it will be added to the training program.

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C'mon, Ungermann, put your thinking cap on.
I try not taking it down, thank you very much. But I also want the camera to put it on.

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If that day ever comes, then all the creativity of videography will be gone. You'll need nobody behind the lens. You might as well use an iPhone.
Do you drive manual or automatic? Just curious. If you drive manual, how does it affect your creativity in choosing the route and in figuring which car to overtake? Do you know how many controls the very early cars had? Almost as many as a backhoe nowadays. Have you tried operating a backhoe? It is fun, but I almost have fallen a tree in my backyard operating one.

Yes, iPhone and Android are getting better and better. Their main limitation is a single lens with fixed focus length, but new phones with two, three, four lenses and smart software that figures out distance to different objects make shooting with these phones a different experience compared to standalone cameras, which now feel like dinosaurs and their only redeeming quality is a big hunk of glass in the front.

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Cameras of a 1995 vintage don't cut it. Maybe for you. Is that what you're using? ;
Thank you for asking. My oldest camera is made in 2006... or is it 2005? I recently bought a 50 Hz DV camcorder from Germany because it has more lines than a 60 Hz version (576 vs 480). It has CCD sensor that uses global shutter. It uses MiniDV cassettes, which to me are akin Super8 cartridges. I think the experience of shooting DV is somewhat in between of shooting Super8 and shooting HD onto a memory card. I bet in five years people will be hunting DV cameras like presently they are in awe from 1960s technology that allows shooting three minutes of murky silent image.

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post #10 of 16 Old 05-22-2020, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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It should be trained by the manufacturer, of course. If the shooter does not know, the camera would not do any worse by following the most predictable path than doing something else. It WILL do something anyway, focusing here or there, focusing on the center or focusing on the highest-contrast part or focusing on a moving object or NOT focusing on the moving object, it will do SOMETHING. In this case, it rather should be doing the most predictable action.
Ungermann, the point is you CAN tell the camera what you're thinking and have it respond in an appropriate way. But your AI doesn't exist in today's cameras to automatically make those decisions. You seem to think it's the sole rationale for not buying any modern camera. That's utterly absurd. You never seem to be someone who is overly concerned about PQ. Many of us here are and that's the overriding decision we make when considering what to purchase, not the presence of AI. You have a long history of pointing out what you feel are the flaws of new cameras but you never comment on the strengths of these same cameras. This has been your way from day one on this forum. I think if you've posted 2 of your own videos in the many years I've been here, it's a lot.

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If I decide to do something that goes outside of the most common path, I would turn AF off, as simple as that, and the camera will store this use case as an exception. Moreover, if the camera is Wi-Fi enabled, it will send this exception back to the manufacturer - with my approval, of course - where it will be added to the training program.
Well there ya go, you missed your calling, you should apply for chief design engineer for any & all of the major camera companies.

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Do you drive manual or automatic? Just curious. If you drive manual, how does it affect your creativity in choosing the route and in figuring which car to overtake? Do you know how many controls the very early cars had? Almost as many as a backhoe nowadays. Have you tried operating a backhoe? It is fun, but I almost have fallen a tree in my backyard operating one.
I drive a Jaguar I-Pace that has a CVT. No shifting, so no manual. It's a ton of fun to drive, exceedingly fast, handles great and I don't need a manual to enjoy it. With its acceleration I can overtake virtually any car I choose to. But I don't drive like a maniac, so I pass when I need to, not to show off. What relevance this has I have no idea, but there it is. Perhaps we should talk about whether you prefer margarine or butter?
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Yes, iPhone and Android are getting better and better. Their main limitation is a single lens with fixed focus length, but new phones with two, three, four lenses and smart software that figures out distance to different objects make shooting with these phones a different experience compared to standalone cameras, which now feel like dinosaurs and their only redeeming quality is a big hunk of glass in the front.
And the above doesn't surprise me in the least and explains far better than I can why you feel the way you do about today's modern mirrorless DSLR 'dinosaurs'.

Adios my friend.
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post #11 of 16 Old 05-22-2020, 09:18 PM
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Ungermann, the point is you CAN tell the camera what you're thinking and have it respond in an appropriate way. But your AI doesn't exist in today's cameras to automatically make those decisions.
Exactly, the AI that I want does not exist in the cameras made now. This situation is going to bury these cameras as more and more people switch to smartphones. Consumers already have forgotten about small point-and-shoot dedicated cameras. They almost abandoned handheld camcorders. The same will soon happen to larger cameras if camera manufacturers do not catch up with Apple et al, which will be hard, because they do not have such a massive database.

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You seem to think it's the sole rationale for not buying any modern camera.
Nope, I simply commented on AF in your video. I do not buy new cameras because I have nothing that warrants 4K, HDR or whatever other features they can offer. My videos suck. A better camera will not help me.

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You have a long history of pointing out what you feel are the flaws of new cameras but you never comment on the strengths of these same cameras.
You know the joke, a young family gave birth to a child, but he is mute. 1 month, 6 months, 1 year, 2 years... he says nothing. The parents are devastated that their child is deaf and thus, mute. Then one day he says, "Hey, guys, the milk in the cereal is sour." They are like, "You can talk! Why haven't you said anything before?" — "Because until today everything was fine."

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I drive a Jaguar I-Pace that has a CVT.
No, it does not have CVT. I see, as there are no gear changes, you are not faced with the problem whether you should allow the car to choose gears for you. This is quite ingenious.

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I think if you've posted 2 of your own videos in the many years I've been here, it's a lot.
You are right, I should advertise myself better, although I don't think this will significantly boost the number of views and subscribers. Here is a fairly recent one, feel free to dislike. You are right, I am trying to shoot videos that have some info in them. But not everyone can be a Techmoan.


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post #12 of 16 Old 05-23-2020, 05:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I do not buy new cameras because I have nothing that warrants 4K, HDR or whatever other features they can offer.
Practically speaking, Mark & I are the only ones that post videos here, but given your feelings about these cameras, why do you bother watching them?

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No, it does not have CVT. I see, as there are no gear changes, you are not faced with the problem whether you should allow the car to choose gears for you. This is quite ingenious.
I said CVT because that’s an easier concept for most to understand and functionally not much different than the actual use case in an I-Pace where there is no gear shifting as in a conventional multi-speed transmission. Torque is instant as is typical in electric cars like Teslas, I-Pace etc.

Of course in describing the transmission I could have said this if it would have made you happier:

“The two Jaguar-designed synchronous permanent magnet electric motors drive the front and rear axles. Each motor fits concentrically around a compact, single-speed epicyclic transmission and differential, enabling instant and precise distribution of torque to all four wheels as the I-PACE continuously adapts its front-rear balance to suit road conditions.“

Ungermann, I’ve said it before, you must be so much fun to live with.
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post #13 of 16 Old 05-23-2020, 12:34 PM
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I said CVT because that’s an easier concept for most to understand and functionally not much different than the actual use case in an I-Pace where there is no gear shifting as in a conventional multi-speed transmission. Torque is instant as is typical in electric cars like Teslas, I-Pace etc.

Of course in describing the transmission I could have said this if it would have made you happier:

“The two Jaguar-designed synchronous permanent magnet electric motors drive the front and rear axles. Each motor fits concentrically around a compact, single-speed epicyclic transmission and differential, enabling instant and precise distribution of torque to all four wheels as the I-PACE continuously adapts its front-rear balance to suit road conditions.“
You think that CVT, with its rather complex design having planetary gear, a couple of motor-generators and an electronic brain with licked-out software is an easier concept than an electric motor? Jaguar was incapable of designing hub motors that would be compact and lightweight and powerful enough. Its marketing team had to make do with what was available to them, that is, a mundane electric motor driving the wheels via a differential.

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post #14 of 16 Old 05-23-2020, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Where did I say anything related to what you stated? Don't put words in my mouth.

You know Ungermann, I truly grow tired of your inane remarks. You have nothing good to say about anything you don't own. I shouldn't even dignify your ignorant remarks with an answer. If you'd truly like to educate yourself, you might try reading some of the many reviews that think quite differently than you. The car has received many rave reviews.

The I-Pace is an incredibly fast, incredibly well-designed, great handling, luxurious vehicle that's put together extremely well. I know what drives your constant criticisms of the things you don't own, but I won't go there. It's been obvious for years. As I said, I'm tired of your blabber and just as a point of information, this isn't a car forum, it's a camcorder forum. Check at the top of this page for confirmation.

You speak of old sayings, let me give you one, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". You seem to take the opposite tact.

I'm done here.

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post #15 of 16 Old 05-23-2020, 06:14 PM
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As I said, I'm tired of your blabber and just as a point of information, this isn't a car forum, it's a camcorder forum. Check at the top of this page for confirmation.
It wasn't me who brought up the i-Pace. It was not me who incorrectly claimed it has CVT. Sure, we don't need to discuss it any further, it is a nice car. It is not the first mass-produced electric car, nor the first electric crossover SUV, it does not have the most inventive transmission, but it carries a lovely badge. Indian ownership seems to work well for Jaguar; just like Porsche before them, they realized that low-slung sports cars and tourers are difficult for aging baby boomers to get in and out, so they pushed the former maker of "the most beautiful car ever made," as Enzo Ferrari called the E-Type, into making more profitable crossovers. Good business, now even Ferrari wants to make one.

As this is a camcorder forum, I wanted to attach an amateur video of the upcoming Ferrari Purosangue, but alas, the car is not being produced yet. Maybe in a couple of years.
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post #16 of 16 Old 05-23-2020, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Good grief Ungermann, YOU asked me what I drove!!

I explained why I used the easier term CVT. I was differentiating typical multi-speed transmissions used in ICE cars from the type used in BEVs, which tend to be single speed since the torque from electric motors is so instantaneous.

I told you to check reviews of the car when in your usual, not so subtle way, you criticized the car. So here’s a brief synopsis from Wikipedia:

“Ostensibly the most highly decorated production car (of any powertrain type) in modern history, the Jaguar I-Pace, in its first year received 62 international awards from automotive industry groups and media publishers in the areas of automotive design, handling/performance, technological innovation, powertrain design, environmental consideration, and passenger safety, with more than a dozen international "Car/SUV of the Year" selections including Germany, United Kingdom, Norway, Sweden, Scotland, Ireland, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and ultimately 2019 European Car of the Year, as well as 2019 World Car of the Year Award (also capturing Best Design and Best Green Car, an unprecedented treble)”

Out of respect for others, this will be my last post on cars in a camcorder forum.

Goodnight Ungermann. Maybe tomorrow you’ll be a more pleasant person. We can only hope.

Last edited by Ken Ross; 05-23-2020 at 07:46 PM.
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