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post #2371 of 2386 Old 10-03-2019, 06:56 PM
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Any thoughts on my experience and question regarding 6CL vs 6ND dimmers?
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post #2372 of 2386 Old 10-07-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rapamatic View Post
Can you use a non-neutral dimmer (6D or 10D) for the lighting load in the barn? With those dimmers, the actual dimmer switch does not need to be on the load side...


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So, after talking with him a bit more, it seems like this might be pretty easy. He's pretty sure that the lights in the barn are fed from the barn's circuit panel (which makes sense). This means there's got to be be at least 3 wires (not including the neutral) to include the house switch in the circuit, and bring the load back to the barn. So I think an RD-RD in the barn and whatever required dimmer in the house. I haven't yet had a chance to open up the box and check. I'm not ENTIRELY certain it's like this. The switch in the house is in a 4 gang box. And the house is new enough that neutrals should be everywhere. Is there a neutral going from the barn to the house (AND BACK?). Can neutrals from different supplies like that even be in the same box code-wise (I'm very much not an electrician, and this is maybe totally fine, and maybe totally not fine. Just seems pretty suspect to me).
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post #2373 of 2386 Old 10-16-2019, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by freeoscar View Post
I admit I'm not an electrician, but in a 3-way switch aren't both sides load bearing? I mean, right now he presumably has 2 dumb switches and they both operate the load.
If it were traditional switching, yes you are correct, but in this case the Companion Dimmers and Switches do not bare the actual load, and for the Neutral connected device in Lutron the Load side of the 3 or 4-way has to be where the actual dimmer/switch is.

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post #2374 of 2386 Old 10-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Swancoat View Post
So, after talking with him a bit more, it seems like this might be pretty easy. He's pretty sure that the lights in the barn are fed from the barn's circuit panel (which makes sense). This means there's got to be be at least 3 wires (not including the neutral) to include the house switch in the circuit, and bring the load back to the barn. So I think an RD-RD in the barn and whatever required dimmer in the house. I haven't yet had a chance to open up the box and check. I'm not ENTIRELY certain it's like this. The switch in the house is in a 4 gang box. And the house is new enough that neutrals should be everywhere. Is there a neutral going from the barn to the house (AND BACK?). Can neutrals from different supplies like that even be in the same box code-wise (I'm very much not an electrician, and this is maybe totally fine, and maybe totally not fine. Just seems pretty suspect to me).
You got it. If it's traditionally 3-way wired you have enough wires for a non-neutral device at least. However be cautious in a 3-way wiring. The White wire is often used for one of the travelers but should be marked as such in the boxes. Tell-tale is the neutral used as a traveler (3-way wiring) should be marked or shoot your electrician, should be connected to a switch only and not to any other neutrals. If you see a bundle of neutrals spliced together, you should be able to assume they are your grounded conductor(s) and able to use as such for the Neutral connected devices.



Don't forget there is a non-neutral switch also, RRD-8S-DV you could place on either end.

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post #2375 of 2386 Old 10-16-2019, 09:15 AM
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A couple great questions lately, and somehow I'm not getting notifications from AVS again. Anyway looks like most questions are ironed out. I didn't address it but there are a couple interesting keypads configurations specific for shades. Pages back (page 68) I posted a couple screens shots showing all the keypad configurations but if you find the engraving sheet for your keypad or pico (luton.com/engraving) and load it into adobe (it may or may not work in your browser) when you select you options, the document is interactive and you should see a representation of it as you change from 3 button to 5 button, etc... Additionally if you have the design or programming software you can obviously see them there as well.

I've been getting a lot of emails for the PRO dimmer and we have only had it for a couple weeks. I don't have a lot of feed back yet, none actually, but no news is usually good news in this case. It has a fairly low 25watt non-neutral minimum which is great, but if you need the ELV, aka Reverse Phase, aka Trailing Edge or 5watt minimum you still need the neutral. Likely we'll see the 6NA go away, and perhaps the 6CL as well but just speculation at this point, don't quote me.... It's available now.

Here are some of the specifics:

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post #2376 of 2386 Old 10-16-2019, 08:27 PM
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I'll throw it out there one more time just in case someone with experience overlooked it.

Any thoughts on 6ND vs 6CL? My use is new construction so have neutral available everywhere. I ordered a dozen or more bulbs that were reportedly good dimmers and tested with both. I found 2 good with the 6ND, and both of those plus one or two more good with the 6CL. By good I mean no detectable flicker, reasonably low dimming level and minimal if any buzz at 1ft distance. I think the 6CL was as good in those qualities as the 6ND. I would have thought the 6ND would be superior though.

Are my results typical? Is there something I'm overlooking or some other reason not to deploy several dozen 6CL dimmers in a new construction?
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post #2377 of 2386 Old 10-17-2019, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I'll throw it out there one more time just in case someone with experience overlooked it.

Any thoughts on 6ND vs 6CL? My use is new construction so have neutral available everywhere. I ordered a dozen or more bulbs that were reportedly good dimmers and tested with both. I found 2 good with the 6ND, and both of those plus one or two more good with the 6CL. By good I mean no detectable flicker, reasonably low dimming level and minimal if any buzz at 1ft distance. I think the 6CL was as good in those qualities as the 6ND. I would have thought the 6ND would be superior though.

Are my results typical? Is there something I'm overlooking or some other reason not to deploy several dozen 6CL dimmers in a new construction?
Why not just go all 6ND? We did new construction and why not use the neutrals you have. I'd imagine it'd be more stable over time. I have 20 or more 6NDs all around the house. All good.

I installed Lutron blinds and boy are they nice (pre-wired for them). Ultra quiet!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2378 of 2386 Old 10-17-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
Why not just go all 6ND? We did new construction and why not use the neutrals you have. I'd imagine it'd be more stable over time. I have 20 or more 6NDs all around the house. All good.

I installed Lutron blinds and boy are they nice (pre-wired for them). Ultra quiet!
I had planned on going all 6ND but thought I'd test both that and the 6CL with a variety of bulbs.

If it were truly equal I'd still go with the 6ND, but to be honest I felt like a great eagle bulb with the 6CL gave the best performance of any combination, and that bulb is relatively inexpensive to boot.

I do worry a little about bulb manufacturers and models changing over time and maybe future bulb options are more likely to have good results with the 6ND? Or maybe there is something else I'm overlooking?

On paper the 6ND seems like the way to go. My real world testing has me second guessing.
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post #2379 of 2386 Old 10-17-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I had planned on going all 6ND but thought I'd test both that and the 6CL with a variety of bulbs.

If it were truly equal I'd still go with the 6ND, but to be honest I felt like a great eagle bulb with the 6CL gave the best performance of any combination, and that bulb is relatively inexpensive to boot.

I do worry a little about bulb manufacturers and models changing over time and maybe future bulb options are more likely to have good results with the 6ND? Or maybe there is something else I'm overlooking?

On paper the 6ND seems like the way to go. My real world testing has me second guessing.
Yep. I get it. I did real world testing with a number of bulbs using the Lutron tool at their website. Another finding was that the more bulbs / cans you had on a zone / circuit, the better the dimming. For example, I tried 6 LED bulbs on one switch and then pulled out 4 of them so only 2 remained on that zone and the dimming was not so great. In the end we used LED integrated cans and the dim super nice!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.

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post #2380 of 2386 Old 10-17-2019, 01:04 PM
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I'm making sure to test with anywhere from 1 to 5 bulbs at a time as load (I only bought five bases for some reason, even though some rooms will have 6 on a circuit).

I thought about integrated cans. Was a little worried about finding exact matches down the road. Too late (practically) now, cans are all installed and wired.
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post #2381 of 2386 Old 10-17-2019, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
I'm making sure to test with anywhere from 1 to 5 bulbs at a time as load (I only bought five bases for some reason, even though some rooms will have 6 on a circuit).

I thought about integrated cans. Was a little worried about finding exact matches down the road. Too late (practically) now, cans are all installed and wired.
We chose integrated as the look is cleaner, bezels smaller. Yeah, if some go bad, I'd have to replace a zone. But, I hope they last the rated 10K hours!!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2382 of 2386 Old 10-18-2019, 06:56 AM
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RE: Lutron Shade Programming

I had some shades installed and they work great. The installer put the shades on a toggle. How do I program discrete commands like 'down' or 'up'? FOr example, when turning off lights at night, I want shades to go down.

Thanks!

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #2383 of 2386 Old 11-12-2019, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
RE: Lutron Shade Programming

I had some shades installed and they work great. The installer put the shades on a toggle. How do I program discrete commands like 'down' or 'up'? FOr example, when turning off lights at night, I want shades to go down.

Thanks!
Shades are treated just like lights in the RR2 software. They are either 0% or 100% (or somewhere in between).
You could add them to an existing scene or a new button. Use them in conjunction with lights or not.
Say you had a "Good Night" Scene Button you could have them fade you lights off and close the shades on the same button.
I don't like this unless you have spare buttons, but it makes sense in some application.
Mostly my shades are on a time schedule on their own and I have buttons to manually adjust them at will.
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post #2384 of 2386 Old 11-12-2019, 05:31 PM
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Ok, so the topic of the day way dedicated(proprietary) vs. standardized housing for LED lights. We sell a lot of lighting, and getting parts down the road is typically difficult, especially now with LED and they have yet to come out with standardized/universal driver. So each manufacturer and even different models from same manufacturers use different drivers. It's not just a 12v transformer anymore, most are constant current in a many different ma ratings, and working at a range of voltages, matching these specs is rarely easy or possible other then ordering it straight from the OEM.

Standards like JA8 are now being set forth to guarantee a minimum set of performance requirements including dimming. This doesn't mean they need to do 1% dimming but they need to meet minimum guidelines to carry the rating and requirement in some areas.

The trend in manufacturing is to remove the driver all together. Diodes are available in higher voltages now so smaller arrays are required and they are getting better and cheaper.
Traditionally the dedicated model was the housing held a dedicated driver for the LED module, this made sense as first versions still required huge heat sinks. Later this model continued because the best dimming performance came from this model. Now we can get 5% or better from a universals or retrofit module if you are willing to pay for it, but still the prices are coming down and performance and color is better.

You have to remember LED coming to lighting was a huge flip in technology that hadn't been touched since Edison handed us the incandescent bulb. Sure we had fluorescent and HID, but this was more reserved to commercial applications until energy savings was more or less mandated and pushed the LED forward.

The current trend in LED is either a switch on the LED light to adjust the color temperature so you can decide later if you want 2700k, 3000k, 5000k, etc and not have to replace your lights. Additionally we are seeing LED that mimic incandescent by warming when you dim. This seems greats but opens up another set of problems in trying to control them. Yes they work on a LED dimmer, but getting multiple to sync and stay on track isn't 100% yet. For the most part I think people are getting use to lights that don't warm(color) as they dim. I don't think it's such a bad thing but a warm light is still more comfortable to relax under in my opinion.

Another one in the commercial spectrum is an LED that has 2 controls, one for dimming and another dimmer for color.

One more is integrated controls in the LED where as you could supply them from a single circuit and within an APP or special control you can address and group or zone each light. This is available now, but you could not use this with a dimmer or Radio Ra, you have to only switch and control from APP or Proprietary control.



So it was discussed a few thread back, but even though the high end lights are using the dedicated model, you can get great quality lights from a retrofit type product and standard housing keeping al the maintenance simply plug and play.

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post #2385 of 2386 Old 11-13-2019, 03:34 PM
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The Philips soft white dimmable LED (I tested BR30 I think) had a really nice warming as it dims effect with both RR-6CL and RRD-6ND dimmers. FWIW for anyone interested.
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post #2386 of 2386 Old 11-16-2019, 03:31 PM
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The trend in manufacturing is to remove the driver all together. Diodes are available in higher voltages now so smaller arrays are required and they are getting better and cheaper.
Thanks for all this info. I have noticed there is an uptick in 120V LED Strip (driverless) which is very interesting since you don't have to hide a driver somewhere. Has anyone tried these out and had any luck using a plug-in type dimmer, such as the RR2 plug-in dimmer? They come with 2 prong plugs, so wondering if it would work. I have so many areas it would be helpful for retrofit.

As for Dim-To-Warm, recently upgraded some Halo lights to their newer Dim-To-Warm module (ML4), they are awesome. Works very well with the 6CL dimmer where I didn't have a neutral, I can get to about 7% on the low end. Very high CRI and dimming curve with color is impressive.
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