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rtbatch 03-04-2010 03:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVB View Post

The issue isn't having spares - that insinuates defective devices. My point is that wireless just isn't as reliable as wired. Want proof? AVS search on wireless video, wireless dropouts, RF interference, etc. Anybody who says a wireless network is as reliable as a wired network is delusional. Full Stop. Period. End of Line.

Throwing a signal across an ever-increasingly-crowded spectrum simply cannot be as reliable or fast as a dedicated physical circuit. How much lower that reliability is based on A) your physical environment & B) the quality of the merchandise you select. For example, I might be able to get to 99% reliability if I went with RadioRA2 and several RF repeaters. My lot size is only ~40' x 100', so houses are really close together. On a good day, I've got 8 wireless networks, 3 baby monitors, overhead power lines, 6 neighbors cordless phones, and much other stuff to interfere with signals. I'd need many RF repeaters. I was hoping zWave's mesh concept would help me, but it just hasn't. If I opted for a hardwired network, all that wireless crap wouldn't affect me.

And how does this help? Well, I'd like to put in a Homeworks style keypad at the front door where each button turns on a different scene (multiple different lights, potentially different levels). Imagine if, due to wireless/other reliability issues, pushing the 'turn light on' button resulted in, well, nothing. Now imagine that it's late at night and me/wife are holding one of our young children because we stayed at a friends house too late (or maybe bringing in the groceries). How happy do *you* think they'd be that the light switch isn't working? How long before they ask to rip out the keypad and just put in a $2 light switch because it's more reliable?

I'm not trying to stoke the fires here, but anyone who thinks the benefit of automated lighting is using a touchscreen to turn on lights, or using a few rules here/there to turn lights on & off is missing the point of automated lighting. That's not automation, that's alternative manual control, and you can measure annoyance by spousal units in terms of 'milliseconds after opening the credit card statement' since they also don't see the point. It's one of these "Hey Ma! Looky see what I can do with a computer!"

And we wonder why so many women think this hobby is a waste of time.

Your "FUD" notwithstanding, you make some valid points. That said, separate control wiring is the only solution? I'm not sold. I have a question for you. When my land line goes down (icestorm) how come my cellphone still works?

Question 2, why are an increasing number of folks disposing of their land lines? Answer: Because, for the most part you have large, regulated companies providing wireless backbone service.

Applying that standard, why can't I have similar resiliency in a home wireless network (for lighting control or HA)? Answer: Mediocre engineering, half-baked standards and lack of scale. All problem that are fixable in a grown-up industry - one that makes resiliency, affordability and ease of use its hallmarks.

As far as I'm concerned, HA is still a heathkit market - with a lot of nice, smart folks not focusing on the right things.

The question for me is whether I want to wade deeper into this molasses. Jury's out. Still researching.

Thanks,

rtbatch

rtbatch 03-04-2010 03:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

He is not selling anything. He is an end user like you. And unless something has changed, while he likes Lutron, he hasn't installed one.


Give it some time. I had a friend who installed Insteon and at the beginning, was exceptionally happy. Fast forward a year later and he had a closet light that wouldn't turn off, making his wife very unhappy.


Touch your dimmer switch. Does if feel warm? If so, that is one thing centralized wired systems do better. The dimmer control is not stuffed in a little box, shortening its life due to heat. Centralized systems have nice large heat sinks and have open air flow.


I think you missed his point. He is saying lighting control must be treated as mission critical. It is night time, you hit a light switch to light up the stairway, it needs to work. If your DVD player doesn't play when you hit a button, that is OK. But not lighting. And certainly not if you are married and the other half doesn't consider this "hobby" fun .


Justification is hard no matter which way you go. $60 for a wireless dimmer is incredibly high compared to $2 standard switch. Sure, going up to $300+ makes the hole in your pocket bigger . But ultimately you need to decide how much you value the last bit of reliability. For me, it meant hardwired despite the huge increase in cost. The value was there the first day I powered it on and as long as the end points where correct, the system worked. I had no unknowns I could not "see."

The other way to look at this is the total value of the house. It doesn't make sense to spend $20K on lighting for a $150K house. But if the house is worth $1M+, then that is another matter.

$60 for wireless dimmer is ludicrous. Make billions of them and the price will fall to reasonable level. Scale is a big problem in the HA market. Land of the pygmies.

BTW, All safety / security affecting aspects of HA are mission critical, IMHO. Standards, engineering and products should reflect that fact. Full Stop. What's the MTBF on a good grade of light switch or circuit breaker?

Not for a second do I believe in your price vs reliability argument. That's HA industry sophism. Sorry.

rtbatch

ccotenj 03-04-2010 04:00 PM

^^^

so start a HA company and make "billions" of switches...

you aren't really getting anywhere by continuing to post (in various forms), "well, i think it should be different"... great... i get your point... but it's not...

you've been given some really good advice by people who know what they are doing... you can choose to accept it, you can continue to "want" it to be different, or you can move on... insulting them probably will not get you anywhere...

your cellular phone analogy, while clever, doesn't wash...

rtbatch 03-04-2010 04:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

so start a HA company and make "billions" of switches...

you aren't really getting anywhere by continuing to post (in various forms), "well, i think it should be different"... great... i get your point... but it's not...

you've been given some really good advice by people who know what they are doing... you can choose to accept it, you can continue to "want" it to be different, or you can move on... insulting them probably will not get you anywhere...

your cellular phone analogy, while clever, doesn't wash...

Well, as the expression goes, "If your taking flak, it's probably because you're over the target."

I beg to differ on my cell analogy. Wireless works when properly engineered - be that premise deployed or as a managed service. Maybe the right answer is "HA as a service," to a dual-homed wireless mesh - with mission critical interfaces/controls that revert to traditional manual operation in a worst case scenario.

I'd like to apologize for holding the HA industry to a higher standard - and seeking products that meet those very reasonable expectations, but I can't. If similar hadn't happened in the computer industry, we'd still be using command line mode. Another very apt, (but irritating) analogy to those inclined to ask "whats wrong with command line?"

Not an insult, but rather, a piercing insight.

Respectfully,

rtbatch

39CentStamp 03-04-2010 05:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Very funny :-D. Savant clearly has Crestron in its sights. To rich for my blood.

Everyone has Crestron in their sites. This is because Crestron is several years ahead of them all. The inside joke about Savant is that it is as expensive as Crestron with 50% of the feature set. Thats what my B&O (all form barely any function) and Control4 (entry level functionality with an ugly wrapper) was about.

39CentStamp 03-04-2010 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Here's how I got "unbaked" from your post, "But i promise you that this dealers patients will wear thin as you constantly call for support when the hardware doesn't do what the control4 website says its supposed to."

Are we dealing with lousy documentation, or lousy quality?

As a technical professional, I would most certainly do my homework before lunging for the phone.

Thanks :-)

Rather than build an extensive set of manuals and hand-holding documentation for the average joe.. they provide training classes. These training classes are geared towards professionals who already (or should ) know the basics of HA and DAV installation.

This system means that HA companies don't have to invest a significant amount of time and money trying to teach the world how to use a soldering iron or tone out a cable. They can focus on teaching people how to use their product.

The typical DIY response to this is that "its not rocket science" meaning that they think they can do it themselves. Or "these companies are trying to rape the end user" meaning they can't understand why Crestron doesn't want to invest money in teaching 1 end user how to install and program the product.

There is no behind the scenes conspiracy going on here. No one has dropped the ball by not creating a series of Dummies books for installation and configuration. The business model is different.

I keep hearing the comparison to PC and IT. 99.9% of PC's purchased for home use are off the shelf and cheap with a fixed feature set. The other 1% are custom and expensive. 99.9% of home owners have cheap linksys routers that work just fine for 2 laptops and a printer. The other 1% require expensive solutions.

Same goes for our industry. 99% of the population has switches and dimmers that cant be controlled and they are cheap. The other 1% have HA dimmers and switches and they are not cheap.

Most of the self proclaimed technical professionals who lunge into Home Automation with preconceived notions end up with several grand of unusable products in their garage and a system thats only utilizing 50% of the available feature set. Its like the guys who buy Crestron on ebay and beg for a copy of System Builder. Then several years later when they figure out how to program it they have a very capable Crestron system thats limited by the System Builder programming environment.

Neurorad 03-04-2010 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

Maybe you should wait until a universal HA platform has been formed, before installing one. Shouldn't be more than 10-15 years.

Robert, you can lament all you want, but you're building a house, and decisions need to be made now. Do you want to buy into this crap fest, or don't you.

C4, or no C4.

Nobody is holding a knife to your throat, many have walked away, complaining of the ridiculous prices.

Have you considered becoming a C4 dealer?

nexus99 03-04-2010 07:24 PM

Man, I really want to get into this argument ... but I don't really have anything to say :-)

Ok, I will make some points that probably aren't on topic at all...

It seems to me that if you are building a house you really need to worry about wiring... and then you can decide everything else later.

I have been shaking up my magic 8 ball trying to see the future... and it looks like IP to me. Persinally I hate serial and I'm a happy camper just sticking IP serial servers everywhere and running everything over an IP network. And many devices that aren't IP devices still use CAT 5 or 6 to connect up.

So this means lots and lots of CAT6 drops all over the place. It sucks to have to go back and add more after the fact.

For me I really didn't understand what I needed from HA for a long time. And I am honestly still learning.

I did discover that I dont really need fancy touchscreens. But I do need a way to write custom code to manage my devices. Having lights come on automatically is really cool. Having them go off automatically is even cooler. And that is just the tip of the iceburg.

Think security, then think conveniance, then think about flash. Thats a good way to figure out what you need.

Dean Roddey 03-04-2010 07:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

I'd like to apologize for holding the HA industry to a higher standard - and seeking products that meet those very reasonable expectations, but I can't. If similar hadn't happened in the computer industry, we'd still be using command line mode. Another very apt, (but irritating) analogy to those inclined to ask "whats wrong with command line?"

Not an insult, but rather, a piercing insight.

Respectfully,

rtbatch

You are holding up two utterly different industries and complaining that one doesn't work like the other. They have completely different markets, and one will always require a fairly labor intensive setup and the other just sells you canned boxes. Therefore one is inherently a lot more expensive than the other.

You could ask yourself why doesn't every home in the country have an in ground swimming pool? Because it's labor intensive and expensive. Therefore the market remains somewhat limited and someone coming out with a great and inexpensive pool cleaning robot isn't going to make everyone go put in an in ground pool and suddenly change the market, because that's not what's limiting the market acceptance. It's the cost of digging the big hole and putting in the lining and tiles and plumbing and concrete and all that.

So it's a chicken and egg situation, where no one is in the position to suddenly make home automation go massive scale and drop the costs, since no one can really come up with a system automagical enough to drop the costs such that it will become massive scale.

It's not that all the people in the industry are too stupid to realize that going massive would be a nice thing. It's just that that would require something that no one is going to be able to do. It could probably really only happen if the housing industry agreed to put a completely standard automation infrastructure into every home built and every customer was willing to pay for that. The automation vendors could target that standard infrastructure with a plugin solution. And of course then that every hardware vendor (in the home theater, lighting, security, sprinklers, etc... worlds) agreed to use a common protocol and create devices that really integrate well, which is not remotely the case.

Short of that, it will remain a manual and laborious process like putting in pools, and so the market will remain limited, and so the massive R&D available to something like the PC industry won't be available.

nexus99 03-04-2010 08:49 PM

Dean is right. Once the TCP/IP of the HA world is created and signed on by everyone then we will see things change.

Of course the HA would could just use TCP/IP :-)

But then you need a standard set of controls. I wonder which venders you would need to get on board to actually have a go at it. Crestron, Elk, HAI, ZigBee, UPB, Z Wave?

If there was a conglomeration of 5 or 6 of the big players everyone else would fall into line I bet.

Neurorad 03-04-2010 09:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

it will remain a manual and laborious process

too many rules, too 'custom', too time intensive

Dean, figure out a more efficient way of programming the rules.

Maybe start with exhaustive questionaires, for each family member? The type of survey that could take 10 hours to fill out? Questions to include

-what religion are you, and how devout? (what holidays and daily rituals could be observed)
-what time do you typically wake up on Mondays? On Saturdays?
-what lights would you like to come on when you pull in the garage?
-would you like to control most of the lights in the house from your bedside?
-what's your favorite room in the house? 2nd favorite?

Then you import/enter the answers into the SW (or the clients use the SW to answer the Q's), and it programs itself. Idiots love to fill out forms. Zero programming time.

If something isn't working right, then the client presses the 'Help' button on the touchscreen/RC.

I bet Crestron uses questionnaires already, for this.

If someone, or a group, worked hard enough, 98% of the important questions could be culled to construct a proper questionnaire.

IVB 03-04-2010 11:36 PM

everyone please stop feeding the troll. Or perhaps he's not a troll, out of the tens of thousands of people in this space, he alone has the answer. We all await him starting a company, putting everyone out of business, and making a bazillion dollars. Either way, further engagement doesn't seem to add value.

39CentStamp 03-05-2010 05:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

too many rules, too 'custom', too time intensive

Dean, figure out a more efficient way of programming the rules.

Maybe start with exhaustive questionaires, for each family member? The type of survey that could take 10 hours to fill out? Questions to include

-what religion are you, and how devout? (what holidays and daily rituals could be observed)
-what time do you typically wake up on Mondays? On Saturdays?
-what lights would you like to come on when you pull in the garage?
-would you like to control most of the lights in the house from your bedside?
-what's your favorite room in the house? 2nd favorite?

Then you import/enter the answers into the SW (or the clients use the SW to answer the Q's), and it programs itself. Idiots love to fill out forms. Zero programming time.

If something isn't working right, then the client presses the 'Help' button on the touchscreen/RC.

I bet Crestron uses questionnaires already, for this.

If someone, or a group, worked hard enough, 98% of the important questions could be culled to construct a proper questionnaire.

There is a TV show that is built on this idea. It is called Caprica. A very unique and powerful search engine that can create an artificial life form and give birth to the cylon race.

rtbatch 03-05-2010 08:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVB View Post

everyone please stop feeding the troll. Or perhaps he's not a troll, out of the tens of thousands of people in this space, he alone has the answer. We all await him starting a company, putting everyone out of business, and making a bazillion dollars. Either way, further engagement doesn't seem to add value.

OK IVB, add some value. Instead of walking around with hurt feelings because I'm not buying self-serving HA industry BS. Define an affordable, high-availability HA system architecture. My apologies in advance if I offend by using the words architecture and HA in the same sentence.

I suggested a dual-homed (wireline / wireless) mesh, preferably IP-based - perhaps tied to HA as a Service. Anyone else care to live in the 21st century?

What is this crap between Zigbee and Z-Wave. Yet more technology religion. Although it took time, grown-ups sorted out Beta vs VHS and Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD. Still feels like chimps fighting over bananas to me.

rtbatch

rtbatch 03-05-2010 08:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

You are holding up two utterly different industries and complaining that one doesn't work like the other. They have completely different markets, and one will always require a fairly labor intensive setup and the other just sells you canned boxes. Therefore one is inherently a lot more expensive than the other.

You could ask yourself why doesn't every home in the country have an in ground swimming pool? Because it's labor intensive and expensive. Therefore the market remains somewhat limited and someone coming out with a great and inexpensive pool cleaning robot isn't going to make everyone go put in an in ground pool and suddenly change the market, because that's not what's limiting the market acceptance. It's the cost of digging the big hole and putting in the lining and tiles and plumbing and concrete and all that.

So it's a chicken and egg situation, where no one is in the position to suddenly make home automation go massive scale and drop the costs, since no one can really come up with a system automagical enough to drop the costs such that it will become massive scale.

It's not that all the people in the industry are too stupid to realize that going massive would be a nice thing. It's just that that would require something that no one is going to be able to do. It could probably really only happen if the housing industry agreed to put a completely standard automation infrastructure into every home built and every customer was willing to pay for that. The automation vendors could target that standard infrastructure with a plugin solution. And of course then that every hardware vendor (in the home theater, lighting, security, sprinklers, etc... worlds) agreed to use a common protocol and create devices that really integrate well, which is not remotely the case.

Short of that, it will remain a manual and laborious process like putting in pools, and so the market will remain limited, and so the massive R&D available to something like the PC industry won't be available.

Dean,

Everyone I know (who wants to have it) has hot and cold running water and lights that reliably turn on and off. That, IMHO is the proper analogy.

Although the IT industry still has companies that attempt to use proprietary technology to create market advantage, open standards are greatly undermining that business approach.

There are plenty of big companies who could sort the big technology issues out and drive serious openness / standardization efforts - so that HA is not like putting in swimming pools. What perplexes me is why they haven't. The problems are not that hard. As far as industry comparisons go, that's really easy. One is an adult, the other is a child. Children hate to be told to grow up, even when that's precisely the advice they need.

I will be voting with my dollars.

Respectfully,

rtbatch

rtbatch 03-05-2010 08:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nexus99 View Post

Man, I really want to get into this argument ... but I don't really have anything to say :-)

Ok, I will make some points that probably aren't on topic at all...

It seems to me that if you are building a house you really need to worry about wiring... and then you can decide everything else later.

I have been shaking up my magic 8 ball trying to see the future... and it looks like IP to me. Personally I hate serial and I'm a happy camper just sticking IP serial servers everywhere and running everything over an IP network. And many devices that aren't IP devices still use CAT 5 or 6 to connect up.

So this means lots and lots of CAT6 drops all over the place. It sucks to have to go back and add more after the fact.

For me I really didn't understand what I needed from HA for a long time. And I am honestly still learning.

I did discover that I don't really need fancy touchscreens. But I do need a way to write custom code to manage my devices. Having lights come on automatically is really cool. Having them go off automatically is even cooler. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Think security, then think convenience, then think about flash. That's a good way to figure out what you need.

Nexus 99,

Prepare to be accosted for asking reasonable, politely pointed questions, like why the king has no clothes. I, for one, will not be installing wire line controls in my home. And my hope is that someday (soon) my cat6 runs will go dark when HD video is wirelessly distributed via IP.

In the interim, I'll probably have to prop-up uninspired engineering with copper. Even at that, no one can offer an affordable, resilient HA architecture, a completely reasonable expectation I believe.

rtbatch

nexus99 03-05-2010 09:46 PM

After shaking up the crystal ball and peering into the future some more it looks like HA is going to have to go the way of TCP/IP. Just like telco and network have melted together into one big soup I think HA will follow suit.

Imagine this... a lightswitch communicating over 802.11n (or whatever is next down the pipe... the security here is more important than the speed) connecting to a backbone of multiple access points. Taht would be pretty cool.

Thinking about my own home.... I have Verizon FIOS. A strand of fiber delivers everything to my MPOE. Form there Coax, CAT6, twisted pair, and wireless break off to feed TV, internet, POTS, and internet again respectively. On top of that I have HAI wireless connecting devices to the HAI security panel.

If you could keep all of these services running over the same media and just plug everything in to the same backbone imgiane how much easier life would be. Thats the big leap that needs to happen.

Neurorad 03-06-2010 07:53 AM

Everyone can dream about the ideal setup, and most people here have done that. But some people want systems installed in their houses today, and not in 20 years. Welcome to right now.

You can't justify a giant pile of money for a control system that isn't designed to your liking. Neither can I, and fortunately, my (relatively) new hobby is home automation, and it will give me great pleasure to control my Nuvo distributed audio system, Lutron RA2 dimmers, alarm, security cameras, and thermostats (TBD) with CQC. I'm eager to install the subsystems so I can get started with CQC.

amirm 03-06-2010 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

There are plenty of big companies who could sort the big technology issues out and drive serious openness / standardization efforts - so that HA is not like putting in swimming pools. What perplexes me is why they haven't.

They have in some pockets. For example, Ethernet is used in all the products as is TCP/IP running on top of it. And of course, cat5 beneath is universally supported. What is not standardized is the protocol. But they do for the most part provide the interface letting you control the box over IP.

Of course, other things like serial ports, IR and such are also the same.

To the extent we don't have one driver for every device we connect to our PCs, these companies take the same approach when it comes to needing a protocol driver to control their systems.

In that sense, you can wire your house almost as you would if you were wiring it for data. Cat-5 cabling can be used for both Ethernet and serial control.

Quote:


The problems are not that hard. As far as industry comparisons go, that's really easy. One is an adult, the other is a child. Children hate to be told to grow up, even when that's precisely the advice they need.

It is true that it is not hard. The dynamics are a bit like Apple. Apple wants to be vertically integrated so that you buy everything from them so it doesn't license things like its DRM or its iTunes store interface to others. These companies by virtue of having an extensive catalog of parts, have the same strategy: "why do you want to buy the other guy's XYZ? Mine is better!"

All is not lost though. My house is a hybrid of IT and home automation technologies. Wiring was more or less the same.

Quote:


I will be voting with my dollars.

By all means do. But do read and try as much as you can. I have yet to find any simple solution that doesn't require hundreds of hours of learning to deploy and maintain. Worse yet, you can't always get help. You will likely come up with combination of products no one has tried and hence, problems are harder to resolve. Professionals come up with components that they can make work together and by selling them in that manner, avoid most of these issues.

IVB 03-06-2010 10:55 AM

No idea why you guys are continuing to post here, despite all our attempts to educate him his response is that we're uninspired, BS, banana eating chimp children spreading FUD. Prepare for everything you've just posted to be mocked and insulted, even though it's all legitimate and accurate.

Not that we've actually seen specific technology suggestions & a company to be founded by rtbatch, then again the type of guy who is a technology strategist at a hundred trillion dollar company probably doesn't want to post that stuff for free on a public forum.

39CentStamp 03-06-2010 01:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by IVB View Post

No idea why you guys are continuing to post here, despite all our attempts to educate him his response is that we're uninspired, BS, banana eating chimp children spreading FUD. Prepare for everything you've just posted to be mocked and insulted, even though it's all legitimate and accurate.

Not that we've actually seen specific technology suggestions & a company to be founded by rtbatch, then again the type of guy who is a technology strategist at a hundred trillion dollar company probably doesn't want to post that stuff for free on a public forum.

Nothing new but its surprising to find it in the automation forum at AVS. It usually shows up @ remotecentral in the "which remote should i buy" forum.

This occurs when the uneducated assume things should be the way they want them or need them to be. If i could make the world what i want it to be then chubby balding mid 30 year old men would be considered the most attractive

Dean Roddey 03-06-2010 01:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Dean,

Everyone I know (who wants to have it) has hot and cold running water and lights that reliably turn on and off. That, IMHO is the proper analogy.

They have that because enormous amounts of enforced public financing provides the infrastructure to get the water to their homes and extensive construction rules force compliance and so forth. Again, it's not really at all the same. We are talking here about something that is very much in the swimming pool category, i.e. not required for survival, and therefore has to compete with all the other possible ways to spend discretionary income.


Quote:


Although the IT industry still has companies that attempt to use proprietary technology to create market advantage, open standards are greatly undermining that business approach.

That's true but meaningless, because standards exist at many levels. Yeh, there are lots of open standards used in the PC world. But that's not what makes them all work together. That happens because there are proprietary drivers for each device that use those standards to COMMUNICATE, the standards themselves don't make one end of the wire understand the other end.

It's only because there are two massively dominant companies that force each hardware manufacturer to come to them that this works, because that forces every hardware manufacturer to create a driver for that platform and insure it works. If you are on Linux, that manufacturer isn't going to write that driver most likely, and you can connect that Linux box to the computer with as many standard protocols as you want, but it won't work without the driver.

Ask anyone trying to get into the OS game how it works. You cannot beat MS because you cannot write all the drivers required to get your OS widely accepted. MS doesn't have to, because the manufacturers are forced to do it in order to sell their hardware.


Quote:


There are plenty of big companies who could sort the big technology issues out and drive serious openness / standardization efforts - so that HA is not like putting in swimming pools. What perplexes me is why they haven't. The problems are not that hard. As far as industry comparisons go, that's really easy. One is an adult, the other is a child. Children hate to be told to grow up, even when that's precisely the advice they need.

One of the most interesting things about the internet is that people always seem to assume that something that they came up with 5 minutes of thinking has somehow never dawned on any of the people in an entire industry, ideas that would make them vastly wealthy if they just bothered to get up and do it. I mean, think about it. Do you really believe that a huge group of extremely intelligent and highly profit motivated people haven't thought of everything you will ever think of and worked out whether they could make it happen or not? Of course they have.

There is no company other than Crestron in the automation world that's remotely comparable to Microsoft/Intel, and even there it's only vaguely close. They do have the advantage that most hardware manufacturers serious about automation will insure their products work with Crestron. But Crestron is not in any real position to force those other companies (many of which are massively larger, e.g. Sony) to comply with any standards.

39CentStamp 03-06-2010 04:00 PM

I think this may be the technology that rtbatch is looking for.

Home Automation Experts

From their website :

Quote:


Our products will change the way complex electronic systems are controlled. We are combining wireless and green "zero-energy" technologies into our complete control solution line.

Control all of your Audio Video and subsystems with ease. No software is required! You are not slaving yourself to an integrator!


AnthonyZ 03-06-2010 04:25 PM

Stamp, well played. You're right, that is exactly what the OP is demanding. Since it's clear that Mr. Hubris is the most important person on the face of the planet and is clearly an expert on all things RF, we should simply bow down and accept his wisdom as gospel. Or not...

IVB 03-06-2010 04:53 PM

Now that's a hell of a 500th post :-)

Neurorad 03-06-2010 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 39CentStamp View Post

I think this may be the technology that rtbatch is looking for.

Home Automation Experts

The wire puller can perform double duty as the controller.

Time to invest in banana futures.

rtbatch 03-06-2010 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyZ View Post

Stamp, well played. You're right, that is exactly what the OP is demanding. Since it's clear that Mr. Hubris is the most important person on the face of the planet and is clearly an expert on all things RF, we should simply bow down and accept his wisdom as gospel. Or not...

Would someone appropriately qualified mind responding to my question about an affordable, resilient, HA architecture?

I suggested a dual-homed (wireline / wireless) mesh, preferably IP-based - perhaps tied to HA as a Service.

Anyone ever heard of 802.11n and USB3? The former seems to work very affordably, reliably and securely for mission corporate networks, and the latter seems to work for all manner of mobile and wire-line smart devices.

Regarding Z-Wave - there is no such thing as a "proprietary-standard." That's called a cartel.

Regarding Zigbee - there is a big difference between an alliance "incorporating" an IETF standard versus the IETF ratifying an RFC submitted by an alliance.

Is there another architect in the house - you know, a technical professional whose currency is insight rather than invective?

Fiasco 03-06-2010 11:13 PM

You're under the mistaken impression that you know more than the people here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Would someone appropriately qualified mind responding to my question about an affordable, resilient, HA architecture?

I suggested a dual-homed (wireline / wireless) mesh, preferably IP-based - perhaps tied to HA as a Service.

Anyone ever heard of 802.11n and USB3? The former seems to work very affordably, reliably and securely for mission corporate networks, and the latter seems to work for all manner of mobile and wire-line smart devices.

Regarding Z-Wave - there is no such thing as a "proprietary-standard." That's called a cartel.

Regarding Zigbee - there is a big difference between an alliance "incorporating" an IETF standard versus the IETF ratifying an RFC submitted by an alliance.

Is there another architect in the house - you know, a technical professional whose currency is insight rather than invective?


nexus99 03-06-2010 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Would someone appropriately qualified mind responding to my question about an affordable, resilient, HA architecture?

I suggested a dual-homed (wireline / wireless) mesh, preferably IP-based - perhaps tied to HA as a Service.

Anyone ever heard of 802.11n and USB3? The former seems to work very affordably, reliably and securely for mission corporate networks, and the latter seems to work for all manner of mobile and wire-line smart devices.

Regarding Z-Wave - there is no such thing as a "proprietary-standard." That's called a cartel.

Regarding Zigbee - there is a big difference between an alliance "incorporating" an IETF standard versus the IETF ratifying an RFC submitted by an alliance.

Is there another architect in the house - you know, a technical professional whose currency is insight rather than invective?

I don't think that any HA professional is going to respond to the quoted post. I know I wouldn't if this was my industry... but I am not a HA professional. I am a professional in other areas though that have some similarities.

The gap here is that Rtbatch is demanding a highly available industrial solution in a consumer market segment. What he wants does not exist where he is looking. And I would guess that it probably never will exist.

No one is going to build multi homed light switches for residential applications. The market will not bear it. Its like asking for dual power supplies in a toaster or FM-200 installed in a garage. Sure, they would be great but it will never happen in a million years.

No one can answer the questions above because they are the same as demanding magic ponies to appear shoot rainbows out of their butts. They just don't exist.

IVB 03-06-2010 11:43 PM

Quote:


The gap here is that Rtbatch is demanding a highly available industrial solution in a consumer market segment.

Don't forget that it must be turnkey, wireless, and cost less than $1.75,


Quote:
Originally Posted by nexus99 View Post

I don't think that any HA professional is going to respond to the quoted post. I know I wouldn't if this was my industry... but I am not a HA professional. I am a professional in other areas though that have some similarities.

nobody is going to respond because he repeatedly resorts to insulting & demaning words from those he is asking for help. Even in his most recent post he's using bold italics as a means of underscoring his disdain.

He's the technology strategist for a 14 quadrillion dollar company, he throws around words like magic quadrant and says there's only one way to create it (not true), us mere mortals have exhausted our patience in attempting to answer his questions, so now we want to hear his infinite pearls of wisdom.

He's only got a handful of posts, my advice is to create a different username and try this again using a slightly more humble or at least non-insulting approach, or else he'll have a hard time getting any answers. And for those you who have seen/created corporate strategy language, that's a 1.0 probability.


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