HA Standards and Costs - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #151 of 255 Old 03-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So, rtbatch would like to automate his home with an overall solution that is reliable, relatively inexpensive, and doesn't involve proprietary protocols. And, he'd like to do it now.

Without even a precise definition of "reliable" and "inexpensive", I think we're in agreement that the current product/service landscape does not readily support his goals.

The next two questions are, 1) Why not?, and 2) What can be done about it?

A few possible answers:

1. We need increased scale
2. We need standards (Transports, APIs, Message Structures, etc.)
3. We need better architecture

So, what can we be doing to push these pieces alonge?
And, what other pieces need pushing?
crosen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #152 of 255 Old 03-07-2010, 10:45 PM
IVB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
IVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 5,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosen View Post

The next two questions are, 1) Why not?, and 2) What can be done about it?

A few possible answers:

1. We need increased scale
2. We need standards (Transports, APIs, Message Structures, etc.)
3. We need better architecture

We need to give the CEO and CFO of many major HA equipment production companies a compelling business case that their sales or profit margin will increase if they do this by a greater amount than the current strategies they're pursuing.

The best target is the larges ones that are already successful. We need to convince them that they're not surrendering their competitive differentiator.

Otherwise they won't bother spending 1 wooden nickel on any of it, indeed they may very well bar the COO and CIO from putting any resources or time on it. God knows I've witnessed that more than once.

------------------------------------
Yes, I'm "that" Home Automation Guy.
IVB is offline  
post #153 of 255 Old 03-07-2010, 11:06 PM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Best you can do is convince the CXOs there is a theoritical standard, which would reduce the cost to buil, which would result in more sales, which would drive even better economics and even better margins ad even more sales.

Trouble: the standards only work if they are also adoped by vendor V and competitor C and so one.

Now, how do you get past this one?
crosen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #154 of 255 Old 03-07-2010, 11:42 PM
IVB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
IVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 5,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 17
It's worse than that. In my day job, I was recently asked to take point on evaluating a potential industry solution that hasn't yet been adopted by our sector. Implementation is never exactly aligned across companies due to competing projects. My final evaluation showed that even with a guarantee by the other players, the first movers were at a clear disadvantage. We'd take 90% of the risk, and the second movers would waltz in and learn from our mistakes to build products at a much lower cost. We wouldn't be able to share product development costs due to anti-competitive issues.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's a very hard nut to crack and most times, not worth it to companies as there's typically higher ROI projects on which to spend scarce organizational resources.

------------------------------------
Yes, I'm "that" Home Automation Guy.
IVB is offline  
post #155 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The enclosed schematic represents a very feasible HASP architecture:

1) This architecture is derived from an enterprise policy management topology that could be easily adapted to HA. Such a system exists, and is in widespread deployment today. The in-home HASP gateway could run using a light-weight server running the Chrome OS and a similar lightweight XMPP server instance.

2) Rather than a p2p mesh, lightweight pub-sub is probably a superior method of communicating with and monitoring end-point devices. This would be a very straightforward adaption of the technology used to operate instant messaging systems (presence technology).

3) End points are silicon with 802.11n and light weight (imbedded) XMPP clients. At scale they could be very inexpensively produced (<$50). Devices would function manually if control logic was lost (default condition).

4) All monitoring and control would be cached on-premises. All authoring and topology would be done via a (dual-homed) cloud-based service. Alerts / exceptions / changes would be transmitted to the cloud via HTTP.

Anyone have a better architecture / fully informed technical commentary they'd like to offer for thoughtful dialogue or peer review :-)

Others, save the ad-hominem invective for someone who is listening to that crap.

 

HASP Three-Tier Architecture.pdf 5.337890625k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf HASP Three-Tier Architecture.pdf (5.3 KB, 45 views)
rtbatch is offline  
post #156 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosen View Post

Best you can do is convince the CXOs there is a theoritical standard, which would reduce the cost to buil, which would result in more sales, which would drive even better economics and even better margins ad even more sales.

Trouble: the standards only work if they are also adoped by vendor V and competitor C and so one.

Now, how do you get past this one?

Draft a well thought out HAXML submission to IETF, W3C or Oasis. Proponents of open systems will be attracted to that like bees to flowers. (aka OpenSocial, Android, etc). Proprietary opponents will adapt or die. Apple vs Android = Crestron/Lutron vs HAXML. How long did it take Android (far more sophisticated than HA devices) to come to market?
rtbatch is offline  
post #157 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 06:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
By the way,

For those of you who are doubters, what do you think Apple uses as the underlying protocol for their ichat clients that run on their wi-fi enabled device? Yup XMPP. The technology and end-point economics are there. Fifty bucks says someone at Google is lurking this (feeble) thread, and has an HAXML prototype system modeled in the lab. Prepare to be disrupted.

"Fiasco" care to propose an rs-232-based alternative?
rtbatch is offline  
post #158 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 06:03 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Draft a well thought out HAXML submission to IETF, W3C or Oasis. Proponents of open systems will be attracted to that like bees to flowers. (aka OpenSocial, Android, etc). Proprietary opponents will adapt or die. Apple vs Android = Crestron vs HAXML. How long did it take Android (far more sophisticated than HA devices) to come to market?

I believe ultimately these standards will arrive. The challenge I see is that they need to come from/with the support of existing players with far reach and deep pockets. Without this, no one pays attention because no one has to. This is true in nearly all cases where the innovation is subject to a network effect.

It currently is not in the best interest of the incumbants to rally behind such a standards initiative. So, unless/until an Apple or Google get behind something like this to shake things up, how does it get any traction?

(Pardon the numerous typos in last night's messages - more proof that Ambien and proof reading are not compatible.)
crosen is offline  
post #159 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 06:19 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Everyone I know (who wants to have it) has hot and cold running water and lights that reliably turn on and off. That, IMHO is the proper analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

They have that because enormous amounts of enforced public financing provides the infrastructure to get the water to their homes and extensive construction rules force compliance and so forth. Again, it's not really at all the same.

I'm not sure rtbatch's point was taken, here. Public financing may help with the utility side, but there are three critical reasons electricity is successfully deployed in nearly every American home:

1. Well defined practices and standards around how to implement electricity, lighting, etc.
2. Availability of service professionals and product that conform to these standards
3. Public awareness and demand for these services

(Together, the first and second points lead to the reliability and cost effectiveness required for the third to be relevant.)

All three of these factors are obstacles in terms of HA going mainstream. Looking at it another way, these factors are _opportunities_ for HA to go mainstream, when thought of as problems that we can and will solve.
crosen is offline  
post #160 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 06:46 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

The enclosed schematic represents a very feasible HASP architecture:

I think penning out designs is a great way to drive this conversation forward. This draft, though, is a bit high level. How would you feel about going down a few levels and depicting a scenario that incorporates UI devices, controllers and target devices? I think that would set the stage nicely for further discussion.
crosen is offline  
post #161 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'm all over that. Let's rock and roll. I much prefer architecture / new business models / economics over invective / flat world thinking. Yes, Google could play a role, but so could the collective wisdom on those in the HA market who believe in open systems (architecture) and the power of crowds. Next step ideas? Happy to elaborate on / detail the concepts.
rtbatch is offline  
post #162 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
HAXML could provide a language for openly defining device capabilities, naming / addressing schemes and (distribution) topology. XMPP could provide the messaging protocol between devices and the HASP gateway. Wi-fi could provide the transport.
rtbatch is offline  
post #163 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:16 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Amen to that. Later today I'll post my attempt at a canonical home automation environment and then perhaps we can layer your architecture over that model. (Of course, my attempt will have architecture bias, but that can be critiqued as part of the discussion.)

BTW, openremote.org is endeavoring to make some headway along the lines of this discussion. The following link goes to a discussion in their forum that begins speaking to architectures, taxonomies and schemas in the HA space:

http://openremote.org/pages/viewpage...pageId=1966244
crosen is offline  
post #164 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:25 AM
Advanced Member
 
Fiasco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

By the way,

For those of you who are doubters, what do you think Apple uses as the underlying protocol for their ichat clients that run on their wi-fi enabled device? Yup XMPP. The technology and end-point economics are there. Fifty bucks says someone at Google is lurking this (feeble) thread, and has an HAXML prototype system modeled in the lab. Prepare to be disrupted.

"Fiasco" care to propose an rs-232-based alternative?

You can't just wave a magic wand and make RS-232 dissappear. Both RS-232 and IR are going to have to be dealt with on legacy equipment.

Your philosophical exercise in what "should be" is great but has zero impact on what has to be done now to automate a home.

St Louis, MO - Lutron certified
www.jag-es.com
Fiasco is offline  
post #165 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:37 AM
IVB
AVS Forum Special Member
 
IVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 5,313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Draft a well thought out HAXML submission to IETF, W3C or Oasis. Proponents of open systems will be attracted to that like bees to flowers. (aka OpenSocial, Android, etc). Proprietary opponents will adapt or die.

Quote:


The technology and end-point economics are there. Fifty bucks says someone at Google is lurking this (feeble) thread, and has an HAXML prototype system modeled in the lab. Prepare to be disrupted.

But *what * are the economics there? What business reason is there for google to get into this business? Is it highly related to one of their existing businesses, where they could branch into it and have a reasonable chance of winning? How does this compare to the alternative areas for their attention & investment? How about the other HA companies?

THAT'S the business strategy that i've been talking about. And answering that question would be a heck of a lot more valuable than some conversation about what bits & bytes need to go where, as that's something that would make companies pay attention.

BTW, I live near google, one of the guys on my indoor soccer team is a senior engineering dude @google, he thinks what i've done with my house is pretty cool but he doesn't think it's something google would be interested in. A former fraternity brother of mine runs one of M$'s divisions, I told him what i was doing when I was thinking about pitching them a "Microsoft HA server" concept, he was marginally interested but couldn't see how it would result in significantly more O/S or other relevant M$ product sales. (besides, why do we need those guys, aren't they patiently waiting by the telephone for you to call them like a cheerleader right before prom?)

Okay boys, i've procrastinated as long as I can. It's 7:30am, and I have to email my strategy & ask deck to the COO by 10:00am so he can review before my 1pm meeting. This has been entertaining, certainly makes me feel better about how well I do my day job. But, it's time for the big boys to talk real business strategy; addressing dirty words & problems like "vendor rates in portion of our supply chain are rising", and "losing ground in customer segment ".

If you ever want to have a conversation about why a company would want to do this (beyond the we'll make ONE MILLION DOLLARS), lemme know. Until then, have fun re-arranging your bits & bytes so that it's better than the way Crestron/AMX/roll-your-own model does it today. I'm sure that'll get Eric Schmidt's attention, he's probably the one lurking on this thread anyhow.

------------------------------------
Yes, I'm "that" Home Automation Guy.
IVB is offline  
post #166 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Assuming we're onto something architecturally, which current HA systems would we judge as being "directionally correct?" What moves / purchases, if any make sense in the middle of this disruption?
rtbatch is offline  
post #167 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Fiasco,

Oh ye of little faith.
rtbatch is offline  
post #168 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
Fiasco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Fiasco,

Oh ye of little faith.

Hey, if you can get the players to adopt a unifying architecture I'm all for it. I still have to deal with what is out there now.

Legacy equipment is going to be a problem for years to come after adoption.

St Louis, MO - Lutron certified
www.jag-es.com
Fiasco is offline  
post #169 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by IVB View Post

But *what * are the economics there? What business reason is there for google to get into this business? Is it highly related to one of their existing businesses, where they could branch into it and have a reasonable chance of winning? How does this compare to the alternative areas for their attention & investment? How about the other HA companies?

THAT'S the business strategy that i've been talking about. And answering that question would be a heck of a lot more valuable than some conversation about what bits & bytes need to go where, as that's something that would make companies pay attention.

BTW, I live near google, one of the guys on my indoor soccer team is a senior engineering dude @google, he thinks what i've done with my house is pretty cool but he doesn't think it's something google would be interested in. A former fraternity brother of mine runs one of M$'s divisions, I told him what i was doing when I was thinking about pitching them a "Microsoft HA server" concept, he was marginally interested but couldn't see how it would result in significantly more O/S or other relevant M$ product sales. (besides, why do we need those guys, aren't they patiently waiting by the telephone for you to call them like a cheerleader right before prom?)

Okay boys, i've procrastinated as long as I can. It's 7:30am, and I have to email my strategy & ask deck to the COO by 10:00am so he can review before my 1pm meeting. This has been entertaining, certainly makes me feel better about how well I do my day job. But, it's time for the big boys to talk real business strategy; addressing dirty words & problems like "vendor rates in portion of our supply chain are rising", and "losing ground in customer segment ".

If you ever want to have a conversation about why a company would want to do this (beyond the we'll make ONE MILLION DOLLARS), lemme know. Until then, have fun re-arranging your bits & bytes so that it's better than the way Crestron/AMX/roll-your-own model does it today. I'm sure that'll get Eric Schmidt's attention, he's probably the one lurking on this thread anyhow.

Why did Google invent Wave - an idea that btw 10 years old (unifying email and IM).

Dishing (value-added) information to the endpoints, paid for by those interested in profiting from guided navigation. Why else get involved with all manner of and points and delivery infrastructures - that's what they do.

What makes HA so special? Nothing, it's just another use case for what Google does that hasn't benefited from deep thinking about architecture yet. And BTW, if Google were looking at this, which I'm sure they are, doubtful they'd discuss that with anyone outside the firm.

Way below Eric Schmidt's pay grade. Fifty bucks says other Google employees are (and trying not to laugh out loud).
rtbatch is offline  
post #170 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiasco View Post

Hey, if you can get the players to adopt a unifying architecture I'm all for it. I still have to deal with what is out there now.

Legacy equipment is going to be a problem for years to come after adoption.

Fiasco,

You're absolutely right about that. Unfortunately, the answer is not $60 light switches using proprietary protocols. That's just plain brain dead.
rtbatch is offline  
post #171 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosen View Post

Amen to that. Later today I'll post my attempt at a canonical home automation environment and then perhaps we can layer your architecture over that model. (Of course, my attempt will have architecture bias, but that can be critiqued as part of the discussion.)

BTW, openremote.org is endeavoring to make some headway along the lines of this discussion. The following link goes to a discussion in their forum that begins speaking to architectures, taxonomies and schemas in the HA space:

http://openremote.org/pages/viewpage...pageId=1966244

Brilliant. Thanks!
rtbatch is offline  
post #172 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by crosen View Post

Amen to that. Later today I'll post my attempt at a canonical home automation environment and then perhaps we can layer your architecture over that model. (Of course, my attempt will have architecture bias, but that can be critiqued as part of the discussion.)

BTW, openremote.org is endeavoring to make some headway along the lines of this discussion. The following link goes to a discussion in their forum that begins speaking to architectures, taxonomies and schemas in the HA space:

http://openremote.org/pages/viewpage...pageId=1966244

Brilliant. Will investigate. Thanks.
rtbatch is offline  
post #173 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 08:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
Fiasco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 633
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Fiasco,

You're absolutely right about that. Unfortunately, the answer is not $60 light switches using proprietary protocols. That's just plain brain dead.

Ra switches are more expensive than that! I just put a couple dozen in my house.

St Louis, MO - Lutron certified
www.jag-es.com
Fiasco is offline  
post #174 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 09:41 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK, I'm attaching a diagram called "Home Automation Discussion Sheet." It's purpose is just that - to facilitate discussion.

Some notes:

- The sheet reflects an architecture where devices communicate through a central controller. Alternative architectures (i.e. peer-to-peer, hybrid, etc.) are of course possible. I'm not sure if anyone is interested in championing an alternative. That could be a long discussion.

- The word "transport" in the sheet is used to indicate a physical means of sending a control signal. Another important aspect is the logical control protocol. Some of the example transports manifest at both the physical and logical layers.

- The sheet attempts to capture the issue of logical control protocols by including sampling API calls specific to individual device classes (i.e. setOn() is a method of the Lighting device class.)

- Device and service discovery is not addressed in this draft

Some discussion points:

- Physical transport requirements include reliability, security, performance (i.e. latency) and power. Issues associated with transport vary greatly by device type. For example, a candy bar style remote needs both instant wake-up performance and low power consumption. Thus, WiFi has not been a good fit, despite its broad adoption. ZigBee and Z-Wave have tried to step in here. What's the end game here?

- Wireless transports are appealing because they are retro friendly and inexpensive to install. How reliable are they? Some say very and point to abandonment of POTS. How about the 30% dropped call rate on AT&T wireless in NYC?

- rtbatch submitted a high level architecture proposal. Is that proposal orthogonal to this dicussion sheet or do the two interrelate. If they interrelate, how does this discussion sheet (or a subsequent revision) help to evaluate the proposal?


LL
crosen is offline  
post #175 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rtbatch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Excellent, let me study and respond. jammed this afternoon. Looked at open-remote. Need to do my homework, but it feels a little ad-hoc to me.
rtbatch is offline  
post #176 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 10:17 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Great. When I first looked at your architecture proposal, I was trying to connect in my head how it reconciled with the way I'm predisposed to thinking about HA, which is reflected in the diagram. So, to get my head around your architecture, I think I need first to understand the relationship between the two views (even if the understanding comes to be that they are not really related ;-)
crosen is offline  
post #177 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 10:21 AM
Advanced Member
 
nexus99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 150 Post(s)
Liked: 56
As a consumer I don't belive there would be a great deal of support for placing control mechanisms in the cloud. The definately is a need for home automation/security to communicate out to the cloud (security monitoring, extrasite control) but I would purchase the equipment that allows me to manage everything locally without an inet component.

GSG Full Marty Build: https://youtu.be/-U1deD_0j9c
UM18-22 Sealed Subwoofer Build: https://youtu.be/7ifac8Rh8gk
iNuke Fan Upgrade: https://youtu.be/409nEuUw5k4
Denon AVR-X4400H Install: https://youtu.be/ocgCpvo26jY
Dolby Atmos Install: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwkDyrZpBO0
nexus99 is offline  
post #178 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 10:30 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It might have been mentioned in this thread, but the MSP's are looking at home monitoring/automation and security for their quadruple play. They of course already have the box in our homes, and they could also allow convenient remote access (that mitigates firewall/NAT issues) through cloud based gateways. (In this sense, cloud based logic could complement rather than replace on premises processing.)
crosen is offline  
post #179 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Dean Roddey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 19,431
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbatch View Post

Dean,

Respectfully, you couldn't be more wrong. A good deal of the time I spend every day is focused on issues of security, resiliency, QoS, regulatory compliance, privacy and the cost benefit of on-premise vs in-cloud architectures.

Cached HAXML on a HASP gateway or some equivalent could more than satisfy your concerns. Devices that are defined and controlled by such technologies are being built and deployed today to create smart / connected buildings (and soon residences). If you were to study this, and recast your business strategy accordingly you might be surprised by the opportunites that present themselves to your company.

But please don't try and convince me to embrace your flat world thinking. You and the HA industry are being majorly disrupted, you just don't know it yet.

Unfortunately, I'm trying to make an informed (purchasing) decision in the middle of this disruption. I'm all ears if you choose to offer some fresh insight on that subject.

The issue isn't whether the stuff inside a building can be controlled from outside the building. We've all been providing such capabilities for a long time. But the issue here is controlling the building from inside the building. You've not addressed the point I made. What possible benefit would there be to moving any of the automation system out of the house? There is none that I can see.

Unless you can come up with some reason why having any of it outside the home is better than having it inside the home, you are kind of just coming off like a jerk by failing to do so, then acting like we are cave men for saying otherwise.

As I said before, the only thing you could move outside of the house is the controller, and it's just a tiny piece of the pie, and it would gain you zip to do so. And in return for no gain, you are now dependent on your internet connection to operate your home, something no one is going to do, and you increase the latency of all operations, where latency is already a big concern in any automation system.

So, before you start implying that everyone else is stupid, you may want to deal with the fact that you write white papers about clouds, and these folks all actually deal day in and day out with real people in real homes with real automation systems. Unless you can come up with some legitimate advantages to what you suggest, you are just coming off like a jerk.


As to RS-232, there's actually a lot to be set for serial communications. It's a point to point system from the controller to the controlled device, not a shared medium, and it's plenty fast enough for the devices it controls. In most full bore automation scenarios most of the important hardware is in the same room anyway, so distance isn't a problem within the automation closet really. So it's actually a quite robust means for controlling devices that cannot be interferred with by some other device doing something dumb.

It's biggest problem of course is that it's a fairly complex standard with a lot of variations. But of course IP is as well, and most end users are as incapable of spelunking networking problems themselves as they are figuring out serial cabling.

So, though I'd not cry to see serial go away, it would actually be nice to have some more modern version of it available for automation type needs, i.e. a simple, robust point to point connection. The network is great, and it enables lots of stuff. But it's not necessarily always the most optimal thing for everything to go through it.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

Dean Roddey is online now  
post #180 of 255 Old 03-08-2010, 11:29 AM
Member
 
crosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 87
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post

As I said before, the only thing you could move outside of the house is the controller, and it's just a tiny piece of the pie, and it would gain you zip to do so. And in return for no gain, you are now dependent on your internet connection to operate your home, something no one is going to do, and you increase the latency of all operations, where latency is already a big concern in any automation system.

That is a good articulation of what can be moved to the cloud and the issues that move carries. However, I'd like to point out a couple of possible benefits to this approach.

First, consider that more and more, managing devices in the home will be tied to what is happening outside the home. Energy management where lighting, HVAC and other device operation may be tied to energy supply pricing is a good example of this. With this sort of application, either you are moving data from the cloud into the home, or else you are moving data from the home into the cloud. Either way, the comm link to the home becomes vital. Doing the processing in the cloud becomes more efficient the more that data from the cloud is required. At some point, for certain applications, it may become more efficient than doing the processing in the home.

Also, having the logic out in the cloud makes certain aspects of updating and managing that logic easier to do. Sure, you can remotely trigger an appliance to update, but you're still rolling a truck if that appliance fails.

I'm not stating that moving the controller piece to the cloud is a better solution, and I suspect in most cases it is not. However, I do want to empasize that the approach does have some merit.
crosen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Home Automation

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off