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post #31 of 76 Old 12-15-2014, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geolchris View Post
I used to think the same way, and spent years custom programming Pronto Remotes with custom artwork. But over time I've grown to appreciate the simplicity of the C4 interface, one that even my non-technical wife can figure out with very little tutoring. I miss the custom artwork to an extent at times however.

The simplified UI in turn simplifies the programming on a basic system. Instead of programming the UI, you're programming the interactions between components based off of your personal desires.



Definitely - I wholeheartedly agree. I actually am the manager for my company's IT department, and we are constantly defending why the network is so expensive, and can't we just cut corners there? *Everything* these days is doing something on the network. From control, to streaming audio and video, to just general web traffic - it all shares the same network, so it has to be good.

I also enjoy your point about your wife understanding it. That's a battle I fight at home, since she (so far) has always been happier with four remotes than using the all-in-one. Everything I bring home gets eschewed for the remotes eventually!

Chris
I must say Mrs SMH went from sceptic to believer if one remote with Control4.

To the point that when I switched the HC250 over for a licenced one and it took the dealer 24h to update the Roku and BD driver licences with EV she was complaining about multiple remotes.

The SR250 May not be the prettiest or have a color screen but it is functionally near perfect. As a rightie I even agree with the play / pause placement now.
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post #32 of 76 Old 12-15-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geolchris View Post
I used to think the same way, and spent years custom programming Pronto Remotes with custom artwork. But over time I've grown to appreciate the simplicity of the C4 interface, one that even my non-technical wife can figure out with very little tutoring. I miss the custom artwork to an extent at times however.

The simplified UI in turn simplifies the programming on a basic system. Instead of programming the UI, you're programming the interactions between components based off of your personal desires.
Chris
But in terms of a simple solution, you don't have to have to be limited to simple product. That's something we've been working very hard on. We have a stoopidly customizable system. BUT, we can auto-generate content for core functionality, based on just installation of the appropriate drivers and providing some configuration about hardware and rooms.

If you have a simple and only lighly configurable system, you can't target higher end installations. So, to me, it seems the optimum solution is one that provides a foundation that is highly configurable, but which provides tools to allow you generate common functionality easily, by just spitting out the customization for you. And, since that stuff is the same stuff that you would generate if you did it by hand, you can both get in for a minimal effort/cost AND have the ability to upsell in a fairly unlimited way over time because you aren't limited by the system you started with.

Here is a quick demonstration video I did of how this works with CQC. The entire process, once you have done it a couple times, would take about 15 to 30 minutes depending on the amount of hardware and rooms involved, and you end up with very nice graphical touch screens, scaled to multiple target resolutions, covering lights, security, thermos, weather, music and movies.

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Dow.../AutoGen_1.wmv

That can be used as is, or as the starting point for more customization. Over time we will be allowing for more customization within the context of the auto-generation system as well, and some already exists though it's not demonstrated in this video. Here is another one that shows one type of customization:

http://www.charmedquark.com/Web2/Downloads/Video Tutorials/Version4_6/Tutorials/AutoGen_2.wmv

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post #33 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 09:19 AM
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I have a control4 system that was very pricey and overall it works but in some areas such as the music playback app... Suck.

For the cost, the interface is still not good enough for the money.

Hopefully apple's homekit makes my control4 obsolete.

I use the non-touch remote in my media room and it works fine overall.

My control4 does not know what state my receiver is on (on/off) so if someone turns on the receiver manually... The controller doesnt know i want to turn off the device when i hit room off. It "loses sync" in other words.

This should never happen imo.

There is FAR too much reliance still on dealer implementation and dealer competence which ulimately is the reason why all these systems are poor customer experiences. It is too expensive to call the dealer for each and every one of these issues even if they could be fixed.

You feel like an idiot paying that much for such minor functional problems.

Add or subtract a device and the charge could be easily more than the new device itself. A new bluray player as an example.

There are a LOT of home automation things that can be done now for vastly less money even if the experience is imperfect.

I should have bought 32 speakers for Atmos instead...

Or bought more apple stock (which would have doubled by now).
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post #34 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
I have a control4 system that was very pricey and overall it works but in some areas such as the music playback app... Suck.

For the cost, the interface is still not good enough for the money.

Hopefully apple's homekit makes my control4 obsolete.

I use the non-touch remote in my media room and it works fine overall.

My control4 does not know what state my receiver is on (on/off) so if someone turns on the receiver manually... The controller doesnt know i want to turn off the device when i hit room off. It "loses sync" in other words.

This should never happen imo.

There is FAR too much reliance still on dealer implementation and dealer competence which ulimately is the reason why all these systems are poor customer experiences. It is too expensive to call the dealer for each and every one of these issues even if they could be fixed.

You feel like an idiot paying that much for such minor functional problems.

Add or subtract a device and the charge could be easily more than the new device itself. A new bluray player as an example.

There are a LOT of home automation things that can be done now for vastly less money even if the experience is imperfect.

I should have bought 32 speakers for Atmos instead...

Or bought more apple stock (which would have doubled by now).
Any device that is controlled via IR is going to be limited as it can't give back device status updates, and it's worse if those devices don't have discrete on/off commands. And that goes for any control system. And it can be incredibly frustrating, especially from a programming standpoint.

My kids TV's are older and don't have discrete on/off, as well as discrete inputs, and they have the terrible habit of using the power switch on the TV. So I program for them a Power Toggle on the C4 remote screens, so that if for some reason things get out of sync, it's easy to put things back in sync.

The lack of built in music apps within C4 can be frustrating (I listen to a lot of SiriusXM and would love a built in app), and their reliance on 3rd party hardware solutions seems counter intuitive at times.

If you are having trouble with your local dealer on the cost of adding new equipment though, there are other dealers out there who can help you out remotely and not charge for on site visits.
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post #35 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 12:10 PM
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Is your AVR connected Serial, IR or IP.
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post #36 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
My control4 does not know what state my receiver is on (on/off) so if someone turns on the receiver manually... The controller doesnt know i want to turn off the device when i hit room off. It "loses sync" in other words.

This should never happen imo.

I would think that any modern receiver would have discrete OFF codes and when you turn a zone off it should send a redundant OFF command whether or not the device is on or not. But, I have never worked with C4, so I don't know how it works.


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post #37 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
I would think that any modern receiver would have discrete OFF codes and when you turn a zone off it should send a redundant OFF command whether or not the device is on or not. But, I have never worked with C4, so I don't know how it works.


B.
That is true but with an IR connection you don't have 2 way comms.

Control4 to receiver turn on.
Receiver to control4. I'm on.
Receiver to control4. Someone turned me off with the front panel switch.
Etc.
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post #38 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
That is true but with an IR connection you don't have 2 way comms.

Control4 to receiver turn on.
Receiver to control4. I'm on.
Receiver to control4. Someone turned me off with the front panel switch.
Etc.
If C4 relies on 2-way communication only then that is a limitation of the system. If there is a discrete "off" ability then when the client shuts off the zone the remote/processor can send OFF commands to all the devices whether they are on or off.


Or, there could be voltage, video, current sensors that detect whether or not a component is on to do more advanced logic. If you don't have sensors, then an "off" command should be sent to avoid the situation described above.


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post #39 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 03:01 PM
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It is a marantz 8801 which is a flagship unit and connected by IP... Of course it has discreet on/off internally such as with IT codes however the state of the device does not seem to be sent to control4 or utilized by control4 when the face on/off switch is used...
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post #40 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
It is a marantz 8801 which is a flagship unit and connected by IP... Of course it has discreet on/off internally such as with IT codes however the state of the device does not seem to be sent to control4 or utilized by control4 when the face on/off switch is used...

PWSTANDBY<CR> puts the unit into standby, so it should be executed on a "zone" or "system" off send.


B.
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post #41 of 76 Old 12-16-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
It is a marantz 8801 which is a flagship unit and connected by IP... Of course it has discreet on/off internally such as with IT codes however the state of the device does not seem to be sent to control4 or utilized by control4 when the face on/off switch is used...
Can you not see the status of the AVR in Composer Home?
If it has an IP driver and connection the off at the AVR is shown to the Director promptly.
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post #42 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 05:29 AM
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I will look i into it further. It makes no sense that it wouldnt work with an IP based system.

My original point was that this is one of those issues that should have been on my dealer checklist when they integrated it.
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post #43 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
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I will look i into it further. It makes no sense that it wouldnt work with an IP based system.

My original point was that this is one of those issues that should have been on my dealer checklist when they integrated it.
I just pulled up the Marantz driver in Composer. It's a C4 certified driver and works either via IP or RS-232. It does have discrete power commands and can provide power status (whether the unit is on or off). Sounds like your dealer should be able to provide some programming checks on the power status, as to keep things in sync.

Maybe have them create a variable to monitor the power state of the receiver and any time the receiver is powered on or off, update the variable accordingly.
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post #44 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 09:38 AM
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Yep thanks for that info, i figured as much...

It seems odd that the software doesn't automatically take this into account but programing a variable makes sense for sure.
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post #45 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 10:43 AM
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All goes back to the first point - a well programmed system is useful, regardless of brand. a poorly programmed/installed system is a pain, regardless of brand.


Glad blazar got some help for his issue.


I have a nice Denon with RS-232 control. I don't have to think of anything, receiver only goes on with interfacing wit C4 as far as my girlfriend is concerned ;-) So no one turns it on/off manually and it just always stays in sync.


C4 may have a reliance on 3rd party hardware, but the new 2.6/Sonos integration is fantastic and really no reason to look elsewhere. Someone is building a driver so you can get some streaming sources w/o needing 3rd party hardware. But for now I'm really glad we have Sonos and C4. Makes it so easy to listen to my FLAC files, iTunes and the 5-6 streaming services I like in any of the 8 zones in my house.
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post #46 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 07:14 PM
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If we get a signed contract this week as expected, we will be installing a $120-130K system in January which will implement a fairly large Control4 system. This will consist of 19 zones of HDBaseT video distribution, 24+ audio zones, security & surveillance, as well as a few other bells & whistles.

I have complete confidence that our C4 system will be a rock-solid solution for our client. As others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with the competence of your integrator, not just what brand of equipment you go with.
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post #47 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Yep thanks for that info, i figured as much...

It seems odd that the software doesn't automatically take this into account but programing a variable makes sense for sure.

I'd have to pull the driver back up, but I think I remember seeing a property about the power state for the receiver. Defining whether or not the receiver is consider "Always On", etc. If it's programmed to work off of the discrete power commands, the driver then makes the assumption that it's not being physically turned on and off. Those assumptions work great when in an equipment closet, but can be incorrect when not. Have them check and see about creating some programming checks to first determine the receiver's state.
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post #48 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cshepard View Post
If we get a signed contract this week as expected, we will be installing a $120-130K system in January which will implement a fairly large Control4 system. This will consist of 19 zones of HDBaseT video distribution, 24+ audio zones, security & surveillance, as well as a few other bells & whistles.

I have complete confidence that our C4 system will be a rock-solid solution for our client. As others have mentioned, it has a lot to do with the competence of your integrator, not just what brand of equipment you go with.
19 zones of video... sounds like a small hotel.
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post #49 of 76 Old 12-17-2014, 08:54 PM
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Hey, we have installations with 50 to 75 TVs and tens of sources of video and audio, and handling scheduling of what plays where when, and doing digital signage. In this case they are sports bars, not homes. They can get pretty complex. Those types of systems require a lot of customization.

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post #50 of 76 Old 01-05-2015, 06:40 PM
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Just an FYI. I make a good living tearing out C4 installs (and other lame attempts at control systems) and replacing them with Crestron systems that work. I just finished a job where the client could even watch TV for 3 years after the electrician who wanted to dabble in C4 couldn't get anything working for more than a day. He will lose the lawsuit for sure.
I love this ...
I double that. Too many C4 units failing, especially dimmers. Not to mention the "easy" programming that will not allow for too much customization.


Crestron works all the time.
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post #51 of 76 Old 01-08-2015, 02:51 PM
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To the OP

To the OP: Just a word of advice... many of the comments you are reading are not from users, but from professionals that sell/install C4 and/or competing products. Before they all chime in on this statement, yes your input is valuable, but I get the impression that the OP wanted "user input". Yes we are both biased, as a user I am biased because I want to think C4 is good because I have invested in it. As a dealer, you are biased either for or against depending on the products you sell.

I can tell you as an owner and daily user of C4, that I like my system. I am a bit of a DIY'er so I even live with the inherent conflict of interest (since C4 is not DIY, it is dealer only). I have switched from the original dealer that did the install to one that seems to have more interest in supporting me after the fact. The original dealer was not bad but wanted me to buy something before he would schedule a visit, even for warranty issues. I did not spend $30k on my system, nowhere close. I have 3 loads of lighting controlled (my outdoor lighting), security system including garage doors controlled, 1 camera, 2 HVAC thermostats, and my main TV with a C4 remote. I also have a channel vision door station tied in, and a 4 zone distributed audio amp.

I like that I can use Composer HE to do most of my own programming. The only thing I need the dealer for is to add the product when it's new. The downside is, because I do my own installation, I need to make sure there isn't an installation issue prior to calling in my dealer. For example, I just bought the C4 remote. It doesn't work because it isn't controlling my cable box. Since I am the one that installed the IR emitters, I need to triple check my wiring before I can tell the dealer he either used the wrong IR port, or wrong driver.

I don't need my dealer in order to set up my outside lighting to ramp up to 90% over a 45 min period starting 1 hour after dusk (which is a different time depending on winter/summer - but I never have to worry about when dusk is, I just say 1 hour after dusk!) and turn off 2 hours later. I don't need my dealer to set up logic that tells my backyard outside lighting to turn on for 3 mins if any of my back 4 sliders is opened and it is night time. Similarly, I can turn on my side outside lighting when I open my garage door at night and it isn't already on. I can text myself when my doorbell is pressed and my alarm is set to away that "Someone is at the door". Programming is a big money maker for many dealers (I pay $90-125/hr in my area depending on which dealer I am using), so it is a big deal to me that I can set these things up without support.

Good luck with your decision!!!

AI Limited
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post #52 of 76 Old 01-12-2015, 08:23 PM
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I would stay away from ANY system where the dealer has all the control over your system, like Control4. If I pay for a system, I should have the right to add a new device myself, or pay someone else to do it if I want. But I should have the super-user access, or at least have the passwords to give to whoever I designate.


Would we tolerate this in our cars, or TV's or PCs? Why do we tolerate it in the automation world?






Quote:
Originally Posted by AI Limited View Post
To the OP: Just a word of advice... many of the comments you are reading are not from users, but from professionals that sell/install C4 and/or competing products. Before they all chime in on this statement, yes your input is valuable, but I get the impression that the OP wanted "user input". Yes we are both biased, as a user I am biased because I want to think C4 is good because I have invested in it. As a dealer, you are biased either for or against depending on the products you sell.

I can tell you as an owner and daily user of C4, that I like my system. I am a bit of a DIY'er so I even live with the inherent conflict of interest (since C4 is not DIY, it is dealer only). I have switched from the original dealer that did the install to one that seems to have more interest in supporting me after the fact. The original dealer was not bad but wanted me to buy something before he would schedule a visit, even for warranty issues. I did not spend $30k on my system, nowhere close. I have 3 loads of lighting controlled (my outdoor lighting), security system including garage doors controlled, 1 camera, 2 HVAC thermostats, and my main TV with a C4 remote. I also have a channel vision door station tied in, and a 4 zone distributed audio amp.

I like that I can use Composer HE to do most of my own programming. The only thing I need the dealer for is to add the product when it's new. The downside is, because I do my own installation, I need to make sure there isn't an installation issue prior to calling in my dealer. For example, I just bought the C4 remote. It doesn't work because it isn't controlling my cable box. Since I am the one that installed the IR emitters, I need to triple check my wiring before I can tell the dealer he either used the wrong IR port, or wrong driver.

I don't need my dealer in order to set up my outside lighting to ramp up to 90% over a 45 min period starting 1 hour after dusk (which is a different time depending on winter/summer - but I never have to worry about when dusk is, I just say 1 hour after dusk!) and turn off 2 hours later. I don't need my dealer to set up logic that tells my backyard outside lighting to turn on for 3 mins if any of my back 4 sliders is opened and it is night time. Similarly, I can turn on my side outside lighting when I open my garage door at night and it isn't already on. I can text myself when my doorbell is pressed and my alarm is set to away that "Someone is at the door". Programming is a big money maker for many dealers (I pay $90-125/hr in my area depending on which dealer I am using), so it is a big deal to me that I can set these things up without support.

Good luck with your decision!!!
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post #53 of 76 Old 01-12-2015, 09:04 PM
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Lot of stuff has been presented at CES with compatibity with apple homekit. These might become viable options for
A significant amount of automation and may solve some people's needs.
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post #54 of 76 Old 01-13-2015, 08:25 AM
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Would we tolerate this in our cars, or TV's or PCs? Why do we tolerate it in the automation world?
But we do tolerate it in our cars. Want to add yale locks to your car or a different auđio system and integrate it. Good luck.
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post #55 of 76 Old 01-13-2015, 08:39 AM
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So much misinformation in this thread. Get a dealer you trust and leave this thread behind.

And Apple is not going to save the day any time soon.

Matt
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post #56 of 76 Old 01-14-2015, 08:23 AM
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You have a point on the integration factor in newer cars. That why I keep my 2004 Toyota Solara.

But my point was, if you wish to customize your car, by souping up your engine, or replacing your brakes, put different or larger wheels, tires, change the seats, tint the windows, etc, you can do it. You can make any major change you wish, even to replacing the engine, etc. It may not be easy, it may cost mucho dinero, but you generally you don't have to check with the manufacturer and get a code to put on most new parts, etc.

I personally believe that eventually the smaller, proprietary control companies like Control4 will go belly up, or get bought pennies on the dollar. It's inevitable. They are dinosaurs with an outdated model.

When even Staples sells a home connect hub, which lets you implement the automation a normal house needs, then that should be the writing on the wall. Add to that the the GE Wink connection, and the many other brands out there, including your own cable company doing automation. Most people have no need for an expensive automation system which costs thousands to implement.


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But we do tolerate it in our cars. Want to add yale locks to your car or a different auđio system and integrate it. Good luck.
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post #57 of 76 Old 01-14-2015, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper777 View Post
You have a point on the integration factor in newer cars. That why I keep my 2004 Toyota Solara.

But my point was, if you wish to customize your car, by souping up your engine, or replacing your brakes, put different or larger wheels, tires, change the seats, tint the windows, etc, you can do it. You can make any major change you wish, even to replacing the engine, etc.
A lot has changed since 2004.
Souping up engine. Better make sure the EMU checks and balances are also overridden. Also may impact traction control module and stability control module as the engine response curves are not updated there.

Replacing brakes. Better make sure they also have the inputs for abs and tcs and asc etc. Can't just bolt brakes on now.

Wheels and tires likely need software update at dealer to record New wheel rotation size for speed and tire pressure monitoring etc.

Seats / better make sure they still have the right airbag connections and head restraint connections. Easier to change at home than in the car.

Windows. I can tiby my home Windows without a code from the dealer.

A car is way more integrated than most think these days.
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post #58 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 10:12 AM
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If you think Wink compares to C4 or another robust platform then its hard to have a conversation.


How is Wink going to control my auto water shut off? How is Wink controlling my 7 zones of audio? How is Wink controlling my IP TV distribution? NAS distribution of video files? How is Wink controlling my DSC Alarm? How is Wink controlling my outdoor cameras? Wink allow me to play custom doorbells? Wink notifies me who is at my front door on a video screen in my house? Wink allows me to have an intercom function around my house and also with who is at my front door when they ring the bell? When my housekeeper comes over, can she input her code on the door to unlock the door, turn off the alarm, turn on the lights and turn on her favorite Sonos source? What about when there is a water leak detected, can Wink turn off the water in my house? And these are just my personal uses. Other people have loads of their own devices and uses for C4/Savant that Wink could not touch like RFID uses, geofencing, voice control, utility monitoring, weather stations, etc.


If you want basic remote control over simple HVAC, lights and door locks under a platform Wink can work. If you want true home automation its not going to cut it.


I've suggested Wink to some people, its not bad, but its not nearly as robust as Control4, Savant, etc. Not sure why you would compare the two product offerings. Control4 or Savant (or others) can control 10,000+ devices with more coming online daily. Wink has about 30-40 items listed on their website.


It is like comparing cars in different categories, sure they are both cars, but the comparison ends there. Most people do not need a Porsche, but they are not going belly up. Should they change their price point and offer a $30,000 car?


there is a market for high end or middle tier customized dealer installed systems. And most of those people want a set it and forget it system and do not frequent DIY and techie forums such as AVS so they are an unheard of group, but they are out there. Look at C4 sales, they have increased quarter over quarter, and not by accident. There are people looking for these products and services.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Viper777 View Post
You have a point on the integration factor in newer cars. That why I keep my 2004 Toyota Solara.

But my point was, if you wish to customize your car, by souping up your engine, or replacing your brakes, put different or larger wheels, tires, change the seats, tint the windows, etc, you can do it. You can make any major change you wish, even to replacing the engine, etc. It may not be easy, it may cost mucho dinero, but you generally you don't have to check with the manufacturer and get a code to put on most new parts, etc.

I personally believe that eventually the smaller, proprietary control companies like Control4 will go belly up, or get bought pennies on the dollar. It's inevitable. They are dinosaurs with an outdated model.

When even Staples sells a home connect hub, which lets you implement the automation a normal house needs, then that should be the writing on the wall. Add to that the the GE Wink connection, and the many other brands out there, including your own cable company doing automation. Most people have no need for an expensive automation system which costs thousands to implement.
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post #59 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 11:29 AM
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Home automation is a mess for lack of standards as well as an unwilingness for companies to standardize for fear of being "too interoperable" and therefore obsolete in a sense.

Standards also do stifle some innovation... Think mp3's or outdated usb. Any society needs a structure in order to not be totally inefficient.

The cost of integration with control4/crestron is just still too high imo. This is the same as the unusual cost of healthcare. The situation is broken but "fixing" it has too many special interests.

I HOPE that control4 would be compatible with homekit ultimately. I spent too much money on control4 already. The nest thermostat blows away control 4's implementation for example. What has the control4 company done with all my money? I cant even get my multi-zone floor heating solenoids to work with control4 due to limitations of hooking up their thermostat. 80k for home integration and one of the most useful things I could want to do... Cannot be done. The dealer has to charge a LOT to somehow rig a solution ... Maybe.

The home electronics industry needs an IP based control standard with a central repository for "drivers" for all the available functions. Windows and apple osX typically get the printer drivers they need for all printers sold... But this is just not true for most CE products.

Control4 is embarassingly slow at adding new drivers for populat new projectors for example. The high end consumer who can afford control4 will immediately want a driver for a Trinnov Altitude when it comes out... This however will not happen typically for over a year... Or more... Or never.

The paradox is that control4 is not good for those that love to upgrade to new gear... In other words wealthy people with disposable income... Control4's customer supposedly.
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post #60 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 11:37 AM
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We don't have a dog in this race, or rather we back both dogs I guess. We are DIY friendly, but support dealers as well. What happens between the dealer and customers is their business, and both should honor their sides of the agreement.

However, on the point of being able to customize your car so why not your automation system, just to be fair I'd have to point out that you can customize your car (say, make changes to the engine), but if something breaks and you take it in for warranty work, they may well say, sorry, dude, you've modified it. And that's sort of the situation an installer is in. He gets blamed when things go wrong, so he wants to make sure that, if something does go wrong and he gets blamed that it's really his fault.

If you want to create your own automation solution, then your are where the buck stops, so of course you can do anything you want. We have plenty of folks who do this with CQC and they have very solid systems. Others just like to have fun and try things and they are less concerned about whether it's uber-robust all the time, it's just a fun-time project and a challenge. But since they created the solution it's their own decision as to which end of that spectrum they want to live at.

But if an installer creates a CQC installation for a customer, and is responsible for keeping it working, he's pretty well within his rights to insist that only he make changes to it, since it's his responsibility. If the customer does make changes, I would say it is also well within the installer's rights to charge a nice premium for any time spent fixing any issues caused by customer changes, or even time spent determining what the ultimate cause is even if it ends up being the installer's issue (since if the customer makes no changes no such time need be spent, it has to be the fault of the installer.)

But, ultimately, the installer probably doesn't want to spend even well paid time on such things, since even if he charges you a premium hourly rate to determine if changes you have made caused a problem, that's time not being spent designing and installing new systems. So, in the end, it's not worth his time probably even then.

So, anyhoo, each customer can choose which side of that line he wants to be on, but he shouldn't complain about dealing with issues that he knows come with being on one side or the other, and they both have their pros and cons.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems, Ltd

www.charmedquark.com

 

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