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post #61 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 11:57 AM
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Home automation is a mess for lack of standards as well as an unwilingness for companies to standardize for fear of being "too interoperable" and therefore obsolete in a sense.
That's kind of arguable. If you look at the companies who would have to agree to standardize on any sort of common protocol, 99.9% of them aren't in the home automation business. And, if they did all use a common protocol, that integration wouldn't be a deciding factor in a customer selecting their gear, it would still be based on the same things that drive those decisions now, so such standardization wouldn't be a factor for them one way or another.

Without that 99.9%, it would make little difference if the actual automation system vendors tried to become more interoperable. That wouldn't improve the situation more than very fractionally, if at all. The automation vendors don't make the gear that needs to be integrated, or not much of it, they make the gear that has to do the integration.

So I don't think it's fair to say that the situation has much to do with fear of becoming too interoperable, since that 99.9% of companies would only benefit from it, though for most of them the benefit would be pretty smallish.

Still, even if such a protocol was adopted ubiquitously, and I periodically try to harp on this because it's important, a common protocol isn't going to make that much difference. There are a number of reasons and I've written at length about them before, particularly in a previous thread here about Apple's protocol, which was getting hyped out of proportion by Applites as though it were somehow going to solve all of the automation world's problems. But a standard protocol is just a small part of the issue, not a panacea at all.

On the issue of device support, that's hard to deal with. Just to throw some example numbers out there, let's say that there were 1000 new devices/models/modules that came out this year that some number of customers would like to be supported, and that's probably conservative for most years, what does that mean? So, let's say it takes, on average, a man-week to do a good, solid, two way driver after all of the time costs are factored in (and that's not unreasonable.) 1000 devices times a man week is a thousand man weeks, which is 19.2 man years. If you assume at least $100K overhead per man year for people with the skills to create good drivers, that's $1.9M just in salary/benefits costs to support those devices, each of which may only be applicable to a handful of customers.

And that leaves aside the costs of getting those devices in house where they can be kept around for regression testing and setting them up in realistic scenarios to test them, and keeping people who are spun up on the ins and outs of those devices and the facilities that allow that. Some of them are complex. So you might be talking tens of millions of dollars in expenses ultimately, and that overhead just grows every year since you have to support the previous years' stuff as well.

Customers just have to accept to some degree that the deluge of devices just cannot be kept up with, unless they are willing to pay a lot more for the product in order to finance it. The only companies that can get around that to some degree are those so large (e.g. Crestron) that the vendors themselves feel obligated in many cases to provide the driver themselves (but of course they probably aren't experts and so the quality can vary and bad drivers make for bad automation solutions, not something a company wants happening.) Just even providing validation services for such vendor provided drivers would be a huge undertaking.

Anyway, it's a lot to bite off, even for a large company.

Dean Roddey
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post #62 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 12:18 PM
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You think apple's homekit is going to solve a complex multi floor heating situation out of the box? Why would you need C4 to support homekit? Homekit right now is just an idea/concept but what will it offer that is so powerful that C4 cannot already handle?


I am no heating/C4 hardware expert, but maybe your dealer is having an issue and there is a workaround possible? Dean said it best, 1,000's of devices, to expect perfect out of the box support for everything is not reasonable.


How does nest blow away C4? There is nothing Nest has that C4 was not already doing with their own hardware or other's hardware, without a recall over safety issues to boot. I don't see the love with Nest, its ugly hardware, just like a regular t-stat. I personally use a $20 wall sensor hooked to a C4 T-stat. visually you see no Tstat anywhere, I get accurate temp readings, I can program off any variable I want to, etc.


Again I think you are mixing up wealthy techies with the normal wealthy person. Most wealthy people are not pixel peeping and changing out a TV every year. Usually they wait a few years and refresh an entire system, and they will work with a dealer who will know what he/she can accurately and properly support and then install that equipment. That is how the higher end custom install chain works.


You may feel the cost of C4 is too high, obviously that is your personal call. going back to my last post, I can't see the value in spending $1,000/month + on a car, so I drive a 5 year old GMC Envoy. I don't drive a high end Porsche or BWM sports car. Doesn't mean there isn't a market and a value to some people for those cars. But I find the value of C4 to be spot on with what services and conveniences it has provided me.


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Originally Posted by blazar View Post
Home automation is a mess for lack of standards as well as an unwilingness for companies to standardize for fear of being "too interoperable" and therefore obsolete in a sense.

Standards also do stifle some innovation... Think mp3's or outdated usb. Any society needs a structure in order to not be totally inefficient.

The cost of integration with control4/crestron is just still too high imo. This is the same as the unusual cost of healthcare. The situation is broken but "fixing" it has too many special interests.

I HOPE that control4 would be compatible with homekit ultimately. I spent too much money on control4 already. The nest thermostat blows away control 4's implementation for example. What has the control4 company done with all my money? I cant even get my multi-zone floor heating solenoids to work with control4 due to limitations of hooking up their thermostat. 80k for home integration and one of the most useful things I could want to do... Cannot be done. The dealer has to charge a LOT to somehow rig a solution ... Maybe.

The home electronics industry needs an IP based control standard with a central repository for "drivers" for all the available functions. Windows and apple osX typically get the printer drivers they need for all printers sold... But this is just not true for most CE products.

Control4 is embarassingly slow at adding new drivers for populat new projectors for example. The high end consumer who can afford control4 will immediately want a driver for a Trinnov Altitude when it comes out... This however will not happen typically for over a year... Or more... Or never.

The paradox is that control4 is not good for those that love to upgrade to new gear... In other words wealthy people with disposable income... Control4's customer supposedly.
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post #63 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezlotogura View Post
You think apple's homekit is going to solve a complex multi floor heating situation out of the box? Why would you need C4 to support homekit? Homekit right now is just an idea/concept but what will it offer that is so powerful that C4 cannot already handle?


I am no heating/C4 hardware expert, but maybe your dealer is having an issue and there is a workaround possible? Dean said it best, 1,000's of devices, to expect perfect out of the box support for everything is not reasonable.


How does nest blow away C4? There is nothing Nest has that C4 was not already doing with their own hardware or other's hardware, without a recall over safety issues to boot. I don't see the love with Nest, its ugly hardware, just like a regular t-stat. I personally use a $20 wall sensor hooked to a C4 T-stat. visually you see no Tstat anywhere, I get accurate temp readings, I can program off any variable I want to, etc.


Again I think you are mixing up wealthy techies with the normal wealthy person. Most wealthy people are not pixel peeping and changing out a TV every year. Usually they wait a few years and refresh an entire system, and they will work with a dealer who will know what he/she can accurately and properly support and then install that equipment. That is how the higher end custom install chain works.


You may feel the cost of C4 is too high, obviously that is your personal call. going back to my last post, I can't see the value in spending $1,000/month + on a car, so I drive a 5 year old GMC Envoy. I don't drive a high end Porsche or BWM sports car. Doesn't mean there isn't a market and a value to some people for those cars. But I find the value of C4 to be spot on with what services and conveniences it has provided me.

Well of course homekit won't solve my existing problem... this is obvious. What it creates the possibility for is a common consumer grade interface that future products could be built around. My issue is that many manufacturers do not plan on creating a control4 compatible interface because there is not enough demand.

Only operating systems with sufficient clout such as apple ios or andoid which already have a control device in your hand (your phone) will really stand a chance in "uniting the industry". Most high end brands ensure crestron compatibility but not control4. Control4's growth rate has still been glacially slow considering that most of the "ideas" in control4 are not really new.

There needs to be a robust interoperability between stuff in the "internet of things". The fact that IR remotes are still made by most manufacturers of "high end" gear reflects the relative silliness of this industry and a reluctance to build a product that the consumer will really love and want.

Getting back to the control box for my heated floor contacts... I would change the box immediately if it were made to be wireless homekit compatible. Then you would not even need to wire thermostat wires... just plop a thermostat wherever you want it and program the behavior accordingly.

Most of the interface for air conditioners, etc is antiquated nonsense anyway. Fairly simple IP based chipsets could be developed for all of that equipment to make them controllable over the internet. The tech companies don't like to jump into that industry because it is a low margin, low volume product set.

My overall point is that the home automation process for the consumer is not stifled due to technological limitations, but instead slow implementation and standards for widely available technology. Apple airplay and airprint are good examples of where apple created the interface and the companies that make printers and music gear followed suit to support it.

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post #64 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 01:00 PM
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What is compatible control4 interface? Any device can be added to Control4 if there is a market demand. It is not control4 (or Savant, or Creston) specific. These robust systems are platforms to connect various components. Some devices have it built in already - look at Sony and Panasonic TVs for example, they have C4/SDDP built in already, but you can use a Samsung TV with Control4 too - you have options.


There are still apps that are Android only or iOS only and not cross compatible. I do not think Homekit is going to make Samsung and LG and Panasonic and Sony and GE and {Insert other major CE Brand} to start to build on the mighty Apple platform. And I have an iPhone and iDevices, I am not an apple hater, let's get that out in the open. But CE companies fear working with other companies and everyone wants their own proprietary methods. Yes it stinks for consumers, but things like C4, Savant, Crestron, etc help bridge that gap if you want to pay for the services.


Have you only worked with your original dealer on your heating inquiry? Did the buck stop there? Have you visited the unofficial C4 forums? Lots of power users and dealers frequent that forum and offer free advice in these types of tricky and more complex situations.


Quote:
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Well of course homekit won't solve my existing problem... this is obvious. What it creates the possibility for is a common consumer grade interface that future products could be built around. My issue is that many manufacturers do not plan on creating a control4 compatible interface because there is not enough demand.

Only operating systems with sufficient clout such as apple ios or andoid which already have a control device in your hand (your phone) will really stand a chance in "uniting the industry". Most high end brands ensure crestron compatibility but not control4. Control4's growth rate has still been glacially slow considering that most of the "ideas" in control4 are not really new.

There needs to be a robust interoperability between stuff in the "internet of things". The fact that IR remotes are still made by most manufacturers of "high end" gear reflects the relative silliness of this industry and a reluctance to build a product that the consumer will really love and want.

Getting back to the control box for my heated floor contacts... I would change the box immediately if it were made to be wireless homekit compatible. Then you would not even need to wire thermostat wires... just plop a thermostat wherever you want it and program the behavior accordingly.

Most of the interface for air conditioners, etc is antiquated nonsense anyway. Fairly simple IP based chipsets could be developed for all of that equipment to make them controllable over the internet. The tech companies don't like to jump into that industry because it is a low margin, low volume product set.

My overall point is that the home automation process for the consumer is not stifled due to technological limitations, but instead slow implementation and standards for widely available technology. Apple airplay and airprint are good examples of where apple created the interface and the companies that make printers and music gear followed suit to support it.
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post #65 of 76 Old 01-15-2015, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezlotogura View Post
What is compatible control4 interface? Any device can be added to Control4 if there is a market demand. It is not control4 (or Savant, or Creston) specific. These robust systems are platforms to connect various components. Some devices have it built in already - look at Sony and Panasonic TVs for example, they have C4/SDDP built in already, but you can use a Samsung TV with Control4 too - you have options.


There are still apps that are Android only or iOS only and not cross compatible. I do not think Homekit is going to make Samsung and LG and Panasonic and Sony and GE and {Insert other major CE Brand} to start to build on the mighty Apple platform. And I have an iPhone and iDevices, I am not an apple hater, let's get that out in the open. But CE companies fear working with other companies and everyone wants their own proprietary methods. Yes it stinks for consumers, but things like C4, Savant, Crestron, etc help bridge that gap if you want to pay for the services.


Have you only worked with your original dealer on your heating inquiry? Did the buck stop there? Have you visited the unofficial C4 forums? Lots of power users and dealers frequent that forum and offer free advice in these types of tricky and more complex situations.
On that last point the Honeywell and other integratable thermostats may do what you need.

C4forums May even give you the required pin outs.
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post #66 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 07:44 AM
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Sure, there is a market for higher end home automation like C4 and Savant.


And I'm not saying Wink or the Staples connect or others are at the same level as C4 or Savant or others today.


While there will always be a small market for high-end solutions, that market is very small compared to the overall potential market out there that isn't being tapped.


And its these lower cost solutions that will be "good enough" for many people.


I believe that you will see these lower cost solutions (I don't know which) start to disrupt and perhaps even sink these higher-end solutions. It's not rocket science. Features can and will be added to the low cost solutions.


And the majority of the market simply does not want to spend $1K plus on home automation. Even if they can afford it.

















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If you think Wink compares to C4 or another robust platform then its hard to have a conversation.


How is Wink going to control my auto water shut off? How is Wink controlling my 7 zones of audio? How is Wink controlling my IP TV distribution? NAS distribution of video files? How is Wink controlling my DSC Alarm? How is Wink controlling my outdoor cameras? Wink allow me to play custom doorbells? Wink notifies me who is at my front door on a video screen in my house? Wink allows me to have an intercom function around my house and also with who is at my front door when they ring the bell? When my housekeeper comes over, can she input her code on the door to unlock the door, turn off the alarm, turn on the lights and turn on her favorite Sonos source? What about when there is a water leak detected, can Wink turn off the water in my house? And these are just my personal uses. Other people have loads of their own devices and uses for C4/Savant that Wink could not touch like RFID uses, geofencing, voice control, utility monitoring, weather stations, etc.


If you want basic remote control over simple HVAC, lights and door locks under a platform Wink can work. If you want true home automation its not going to cut it.


I've suggested Wink to some people, its not bad, but its not nearly as robust as Control4, Savant, etc. Not sure why you would compare the two product offerings. Control4 or Savant (or others) can control 10,000+ devices with more coming online daily. Wink has about 30-40 items listed on their website.


It is like comparing cars in different categories, sure they are both cars, but the comparison ends there. Most people do not need a Porsche, but they are not going belly up. Should they change their price point and offer a $30,000 car?


there is a market for high end or middle tier customized dealer installed systems. And most of those people want a set it and forget it system and do not frequent DIY and techie forums such as AVS so they are an unheard of group, but they are out there. Look at C4 sales, they have increased quarter over quarter, and not by accident. There are people looking for these products and services.
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post #67 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 07:54 AM
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As the housing market rebounds, and builders look to "add value" aka margins to their work, you'll see plenty of Savant/C4 systems going into new installations. at least around my area it is becoming more common. Toll Brothers signed a C4 deal recently too which is more proof of builders looking to add these products to their offerings. You can upgrade kitchen fixtures, lighting fixtures, and now your automation system. I have a few friends in the trade (GCs and a few electricians) and they all say one of the biggest pushes they see and calls they get are for custom install of home automation projects. You may see DIY rise for people who want to add a few nice or fun features to their homes but large CI installs are not going to fade away.


Wink/Staples connect are not replacing the big boys anytime soon and should not be marketed that way, that's my point. consumers need to know the differences.


When it comes to a price proposition, I'll go back to the person who drives a high end car or spends $10,000+ on a pair of speakers. Heck another hobby of mine is BBQ, you can buy a smoker for $300 or $3,000 (or more). They all smoke meat. There is a market, and its a strong market for high end products in all types of markets. May be small, and usually not super vocal on forums but they are out there.
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post #68 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 11:25 AM
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On that last point the Honeywell and other integratable thermostats may do what you need.

C4forums May even give you the required pin outs.
I actually like the Honeywell thermostats. Use them at my own house as opposed to C4's. The only drawback I see to them is they connect WiFi and not directly to the C4 system.

There are also drivers for Nest is that's what people prefer.

I would however like to see C4 update their thermostat.
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post #69 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 11:41 AM
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I would however like to see C4 update their thermostat.
That's such a small piece, especially for something that can be run with an almost invisible remote sensor. Nest really killed it with their marketing for this to be such a big topic.

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post #70 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 12:03 PM
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I actually like the Honeywell thermostats. Use them at my own house as opposed to C4's. The only drawback I see to them is they connect WiFi and not directly to the C4 system.

There are also drivers for Nest is that's what people prefer.

I would however like to see C4 update their thermostat.
There is a driver for Honeywell also.
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post #71 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 12:49 PM
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That's such a small piece, especially for something that can be run with an almost invisible remote sensor. Nest really killed it with their marketing for this to be such a big topic.
Agreed on the remote sensor. Great $30/each investment. I have those and a C4 thermostat for each zone. Works like a thermostat should. I leave security measures (Co/Fire, etc) to my alarm system that is all hard wired.


I know Nest is popular and maybe people want to show it off in their homes for the "wow" factor, more of a status factor. Plus for someone piecing together a system it certainly has some value, I am not saying its junk at all. Just funny how a thermostat with the proper marketing became a must have item whereas others do the same thing, or more and are unheard of.


Now when people ask if I have Nest or where my Thermostats are and I show them the remote sensors I get a "wow" response. And it was not even intention, just aesthetics.
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post #72 of 76 Old 01-20-2015, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mntneer View Post
I actually like the Honeywell thermostats. Use them at my own house as opposed to C4's. The only drawback I see to them is they connect WiFi and not directly to the C4 system.

There are also drivers for Nest is that's what people prefer.

I would however like to see C4 update their thermostat.
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There is a driver for Honeywell also.
https://www.houselogix.com/shop/hone...driver-license

http://www.control4.com/blog/2014/08...old-bother-you

http://honeywell.com/News/Pages/Hone...evelopers.aspx
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post #73 of 76 Old 01-21-2015, 06:32 AM
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I use the Houselogix drivers with no problem, but I wouldn't mind a driver with direct communication with Director and not one that goes out to a web server first.

The C4 thermostats we've used have never given us problems, but damn they can be a tad ugly to look at.
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post #74 of 76 Old 01-21-2015, 06:47 AM
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The C4 thermostats we've used have never given us problems, but damn they can be a tad ugly to look at.
But you don't have to look at them. Hopefully you don't think they have to be in the room instead of a remote sensor either 1)because you don't have touchscreens or 2)you are actually manually adjusting your thermostat very often in a "smart" home.

There are just so many more items to worry about (like butt ugly web cams or motion detectors) vs something that doesn't have to be seen, I don't get why C4 thermostats get all the play here and other places.
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post #75 of 76 Old 01-21-2015, 01:43 PM
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But you don't have to look at them. Hopefully you don't think they have to be in the room instead of a remote sensor either 1)because you don't have touchscreens or 2)you are actually manually adjusting your thermostat very often in a "smart" home.

There are just so many more items to worry about (like butt ugly web cams or motion detectors) vs something that doesn't have to be seen, I don't get why C4 thermostats get all the play here and other places.
Some don't like not having a thermostat within reach, hence the need to be seen. I'd much prefer remote temp sensors, but old habits die hard with some.
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post #76 of 76 Old 01-21-2015, 02:28 PM
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Some don't like not having a thermostat within reach, hence the need to be seen. I'd much prefer remote temp sensors, but old habits die hard with some.
I get what you are saying, but many old habits should die with home automation, and manually adjusting a thermostat is definitely one near the top of the list. Even if you can't kick the habit, AND you absolutely can't live with the options you can program once and forget it, you can still adjust it from any touchscreen or tablet.

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