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post #121 of 170 Old 10-16-2018, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you post the list of the equipment you eventually went with? Thanks.
Yes, I'll do that. Do you want the cameras and NVR, or anything else too?
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post #122 of 170 Old 10-16-2018, 01:05 PM
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Yes, I'll do that. Do you want the cameras and NVR, or anything else too?

Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?
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post #123 of 170 Old 10-16-2018, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?
Ok, will do. I'll make a post with what I ended up doing, and what I think about it after the fact.

If not today, I'll do it within a few days.
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post #124 of 170 Old 10-18-2018, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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@socalsharky : I'll make the post on Sunday, probably evening.
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post #125 of 170 Old 10-22-2018, 01:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Can you post the list of the equipment you eventually went with? Thanks.
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Any other relevant equipment, such as PoE switch, software, mounting brackets, etc., would be helpful. Are you integrating this with a Smart Home system such as HomeSeer or Smart Things?

It's been a little over a month since I've now had the camera security system installed.


Let me give a quick overview of the process.


In August 2017, I decided I needed a camera security system. I initially met with 2 installers who provided evaluations and estimates. I liked the 2nd one better. But after the onsite meeting with him, we decided to go from 5 to 8 cameras.



I kept waiting for an updated estimate. He said he was busy with a large project but he would get back to me. Over the next 4 months, after every time I checked with him, he'd say he'd get back to me soon, but he never would.


Finally near the end of that 4 month period, he said he no longer supported the brand we initially talked about. I was disappointed. But I still wanted to see what parts and manufacturers he now recommended. But I STILL never got an updated estimate, even after he said he only supported one brand now.


So finally I started looking at a few more installers. I then settled on one. He said I could buy my own parts and he could do an install only.


For the next 6 months, he was great, and prompt at answering all of my pre-install questions. And, there was no upselling or unrealistic claims from him.


After his install, I was very happy with how clean the install looked, all-around. Even in the attic. For example, I can see a clear difference between how neat his install was in the attic, when compared to the cable and satellite installers from years ago.


Not only that, but a few hours after the installation was done and he left, I realized I never got the security warning signs or stickers. That was one of the things I had asked about prior to the install, and he said he could provide them. He kept his word and dropped them off another day.


So I'm happy with the installer that I chose.


Here's the equipment I have:


Cameras: 8 x Dahua IPC-HDW5231R-ZE


These are 2 MP varifocal cameras.



I wanted varifocals, because I wanted a little flexibility after installation to make some adjustments to the cameras.


Not every location needed varifocals. But given how there isn't much of a price difference between fixed lens of the same series, and varifocals, I thought why not get them all.


After the installation, and actually seeing the cameras in use, I see that it wouldn't have been terrible had I gone with fixed lens. But I'm still glad I went with varifocals.


For example, the house is in the deepest part of a court. Because it's a court, it means there's only one way in or out. Had this been a fixed lens camera, it would have been too far back to make anything out near the opening of the court. But because it was a varifocal, I'm able to zoom in a little more to the court entrance, while also not losing the field of view of the side gate entrance. So I can still see activity leading up to the side gate, for one of the cameras.


I've made zoom adjustments on 3 of the 8 cameras.


Also, the low light capabilities have been as good as I envisioned. I'd seen videos people posted online of these cameras in use. But I'm also glad that for my conditions, it's been as good what I saw from others' too.


These cameras also have built-in mics. When we were checking the installation, the installer's son was surprised that these cameras had sound. I guess the cameras from the installer's own company don't have built-in mics.



So, so far, I'm happy with the camera selection.


NVR: Dahua NVR5416-16P-4KS2E.


During my research and pre-installation phase, I realized that I wanted a NVR with 2 HDMI outputs. This is because I had one TV downstairs that was 1080p, and a new TV upstairs that would be 4K.


So I wanted to output one HDMI port at 1080p, and the other at 4K. I had explained my NVR and TV situation to several installers, as well as the NVR manufacturer (Dahua), and all of them agreed that I needed a NVR with 2 HDMI outputs.


After the install, I discovered one issue with this setup. While there are 3 USB ports on this NVR, all of them only control what happens on HDMI 1.


For HDMI 2, all I can do is view the cameras. What I mean is I can view the live camera feeds on HDMI 2 (which was connected to my upstairs TV). I can set it to see all of the cameras at once, or I can set it to rotate in groups of 16 or 8, or 4, or 1. As in, if I set it to rotate in groups of 4, it will show cameras 1 - 4, then 5 - 8 (or however I define one "group".)


But, on HDMI 2, I don't have access to the configuration settings, or admin menu.


This may be ok for certain setups. But for me, I wanted full menu access whether I was upstairs or downstairs.


So what I ended up having to do post-install, was split HDMI 1 so that it went to both the downstairs TV, and upstairs TV. I already had both a USB and HDMI extender installed for the upstairs TV.


That way, both TVs mirrored the output from HDMI 1.


Had I known that the USB ports could only control HDMI 1, I might have gotten the NVR model with 1 HDMI port. After all the questions I asked about having the 2 TV setup, at different resolutions, I guess no one thought of the fact that the USB ports could only control 1 HDMI port.


This NVR has built-in PoE switches. That's what the 16P in the model name stands for.


I'm glad I got a NVR with built in PoE switches. It makes the physical setup much cleaner. I have all of the cat6 cables going to the NVR, then one cat6 cable going from the NVR, to my main switch for my router.


The regular switch (non PoE) that I have is a TP-Link TL-SG108E. I just got it a few weeks before my camera installation.



If I had gotten a PoE switch that I intended to be my main router switch too, I think it would have made for a messier physical setup. I would have needed a 24 port switch. 16 would be sufficient, but it would cut it too close, so I would have then gotten a bulkier 24 port switch. Given all of the other hardwire connections I have (desktop; Ooma; Tivo; Slingbox), it would make it messier to have that many cat6 cables all going to one switch. Keep in mind that I also have cat6 cables for the HDMI extender, and USB extender.



So, that's why I like this physical setup with the built-in PoE switches better.



There's one issue with the NVR: It is loud. I've read after the fact that NVRs with built-in switches are louder.



The built-in PSU fan for the NVR is rated at 30 dB. I've seen a replacement fan online that's rated at 14 dB, but it also moves 40% less air (9.43 CFM vs. 5.53 CFM).


Given that the operating temperature is at 46 - 47 degrees Celsius, and we're currently in Autumn, and the max operating temperature is at 55 degrees, there's not much room for margin. I don't think I want to change the fan and risk getting closer to the max operating temperature. I haven't even seen what the temperature will be during summer, since I got the installation done in late September.


I used an app called Decibel-X a few hours ago.



The fan blows at 1380 - 1410 RPM. Here are the readings:

From across the room: 60 dB
If placed on top of the NVR, in the front: 74 dB
If placed on top of the NVR, but in the back (near where the fan is): 84 dB


Fortunately, if I'm watching TV or something, then it drowns out the NVR fan noise. It's only if I have the TV off, that I notice it.


Also, I have the NVR in an open style TV stand. I like the open style because it allows for easy access for ports in the back. This is helpful if I need to do something on the back of the Tivo or Slingbox. But I guess it also means that for something like a NVR, it allows for more noise to escape too.


I guess one thing to think about for next time would be to try and put the NVR in some kind of a closed cabinet. But then that will also take more physical space. As I already had a nice spot for the NVR, in between my DVD player, and my Tivo. I would have to get another piece of furniture, like a closed cabinet, for that. I don't think I want to add more furniture.


So, I don't think there is an easy solution. The noise is just something I will deal with.


Even if a NVR without a built-in switch is quieter, I think it makes the physical setup of having all hardwired devices go to that switch, messier.


I think if people don't have the devices I do, like a desktop, Tivo, Slingbox, and Ooma, then it's not as much of an issue. But I guess people can also use powerline Ethernet adapters and such so there's less long Ethernet cables. I guess everyone has their own ideas of what makes for the best physical setup for them.

Software:


For direct use on the NVR, I use the built-in Dahua software. It's pretty good for what I've used it for, so far.


For remote viewing on a PC, I use the web interface. There is also an app called SmartPSS, but I like the web interface a little more.


For remote viewing on a mobile, I use Gdmss Plus, which is free. The downside of a mobile app is that I can only access the most recent 1 - 2 hours of recordings. Whereas with the web interface, I can access any day or time on the NVR itself.


Mounting Brackets: I bought the mounting brackets when I bought the cameras. While I bought both wall mounts and 2 ceiling mounts, the installer ended up using wall mounts for everything.


The exact mount that the installer will use can't really be determined until the installer starts installing. Also, some installers charge separately for mounts that they provide. For the installer I went with, it was included as a part of the installation price. So even if the mounts I bought wouldn't have worked for some reason, I would have just used the installer's.


Smart Home System: No, I am not integrating it with a smart home system, such as Home Seer or Smart Things. I'm not sure I need to. I have my rules pretty simple. 7 of the cameras are 24/7. The garage camera is on motion only.



The NVR has a lot of configuration options for how I want to set my recording rules. But I'm keeping it simple.


Because I'm recording the outside cameras 24/7, if something happens, I will capture it. I don't need to worry about IF it will sense something. Or I don't have to worry about wastage in motion detection recordings, with it recording a bunch of cats. There's several cats in the neighborhood, so if I had set it to motion, it would have recorded them often. Since I'm recording 24/7, I don't have to worry about false alerts.


If you recommend me integrating it with a smart home system, I'd like to hear your reasons, as well as how exactly I would do it.



I have heard from someone that wants certain recording rules when going on a vacation, and others when at home. But I'm keeping my recording rules simple.


Also, here's a funny story of me using the camera recordings. A neighbor said a drone crashed into a tree in my backyard. He came at 9pm to tell me this, but said it happened earlier in the day. I couldn't find it at night. I said I would check during the morning or weekend afternoon, and see if I could find it.


While I did physically check, I also checked my recordings for 2 hours during the specified time range. I didn't hear or see anything.


I then told the neighbor that I couldn't find anything, but that he was welcome to come over and help look during the weekend. Later during the day, the neighbor then said he found it at the neighbor's next to me.


So the story is funny because if I had set the cameras to motion only, I don't know if the cameras would or would not have picked up a drone. But because I had it set to 24/7, I could say with strong degree of confidence that there wasn't a drone crash during the specified hours.


I have seen home automation for lights and fans, and I think that is useful. But right now, based on how I'm doing my recordings, as well as what the NVR software provides, I don't think I'm missing anything? But again, I'm always learning. So maybe there is a way I could use a smart home system to enhance my security cameras.


Hard Drive:


I went with a Western Digital 8TB Purple 5400 rpm.


This was one of the recording time calculators I used to help me determine the hard drive size:


https://www.security-camera-warehous...alculator.php/


I had wanted at least 31 days of recording.



According to the calculator, I'd need at least 6 TB. I'm recording at 15 fps using H.265 compression.


But, just before ordering the hard drive, I decided to upgrade to 8TB, just to be safe.


After the install, I was a bit dismayed because it seemed to be using about 167 GB per day. According to the calculator, I should have been using between 99 - 114 GB. (With the worst case being that the garage camera recorded 24/7, even though it was set to motion).


About 1.5 weeks later, I realized it was because the cameras were recording at constant bitrate.


I changed it to variable bitrate. After that, it started using about 72 GB per day, less than 1/2 of what it was before. So I was getting even more storage than I had calculated.



Router:



I ended up getting a new router, pre-install. I did this because I wanted to set up a VPN. My gateway that I was renting from the cable company didn't support that.


This time, I bought a router.


I bought the ASUS RT-AC86U AC2900. The stock firmware on the router supports VPN configuration.


It's easy to use the VPN. If I'm remote, I tap once on my mobile phone to connect to the VPN. Then I go to the remote viewing app, GDMSS Plus, and open that to connect to my camera feeds.


Battery Back-Up:




I went with the APC BR 1500VA. I chose this because it has a pure sine wave, instead of a simulated sine wave. This model has 6 battery backup ports.



It also allows the most runtime for a 1500 VA.


Let's talk about power consumption, since it is related to how much runtime I get.


The NVR and PoE switches use about 58 - 59 Watts during the day, and about 71 Watts at night. They use more power at night because of the infrared.


The PoE switches by themselves use about 24 watts during the day, and 37 - 38 at night.


On the battery backup ports, I have the following plugged in: Modem, Router, Switch, Ooma, Tivo, NVR. The total power consumed is 98 - 111 watts.


I have about 72 mins of runtime during the day, 65 at night. This is what the APC unit suggests I'll be getting. I can't say for sure that I would get that in a real case scenario, if I went on battery backup power entirely.



The runtime seems a few mins less than APC's chart online, but oh well.


According to the chart, I should be getting 77 mins at 100 watts, and 71 at 110 watts.


If I look at the runtime of an older, simulated sinewave model, then I get 73 mins at 100 watts, and 66 at 110 watts, which is close to what I'm getting. But I have the pure sine wave model, but I'm not getting real world runtimes of what their specs are. Oh well.



@socalsharky , let me know after you've read this, and if you have any feedback or questions. And, what you're thinking of doing, and if any of this helped.

Last edited by nuraman00; 10-22-2018 at 01:27 AM.
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post #126 of 170 Old 10-25-2018, 02:31 PM
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@socalsharky , let me know after you've read this, and if you have any feedback or questions. And, what you're thinking of doing, and if any of this helped.

Thanks for the post. Very informative, and will likely be helpful when I get serious about planning my system.
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post #127 of 170 Old 01-02-2019, 05:45 PM
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I have been out of touch for a while, Mea Culpa.

On 12/12/18 I had a package stolen off of my patio, one might think the 12 exterior cameras would be a deterrent? The police have video. I was not impressed at all with the quality of the video using 1080p cameras even in daylight.

I am in the process of replacing all my 16 cameras and I replaced my NVR.

I have had superb support from Supercircuits.com which the same as AlibiSecurity.com. They repackage Nikvision, they only sell Alibi brand to dealers/installers but in most cases they will sell the exact same item, unbranded, at very substantial savings.

I replaced 15 of my cameras with model WL-TC5DV (5.0 Megapixel HD-TVI 135' IR Vandalproof Outdoor Varifocal Dome Security Camera), The cameras are EXIR, Sony Starvis and motorized zoom 5MP cameras. By stacking discounts just before Christmas I paid about $126 each for the cameras. Truth be told, I have the cameras here, but not installed until 1/4/19, the cameras were manufactured on 4/18 so they may no longer be state of the art. I suspect something there will always be something better just ahead.

These are not IP cameras, I am already wired for R59 coax.

I purchased a 16 camera NVR (WL-T1611H) which is an unbranded Alibi 4100H. That is currently installed and I am well pleased with it. I paid about $350 with Black Friday discounts.

I also purchased two WD 10TB Purple hard drives from Amazon for about $612, together I should have about 5-6 weeks history (with my sixteen 5MP cameras). For me hard drives totaled about 20% of total hardware costs.

In my opinion there are 3 compelling technical reasons to consider a CCTV system now as opposed to a short time ago.

1) with Sony Starvis and EXIR recent cameras have much improved night vision, and honestly I suspect even more impressive night vision will always be just ahead.

2) Just a few years ago, 1MP or 2MP camera resolution was state of the art. Now 3MP, 4MP, 5MP, 6MP, 8MP, and 12MP cameras are for sale. The higher resolution cameras only work over coax cable at reduced frame rates, but you are not recording for entertainment but for video evidence. The compromise I struck was (16) 5MP (2592x1944) cameras at 12 fps.

3) A whole new technology named "Video Analytics" is blossoming. Search on YouTube for many impressive videos. This technology requires capabilities in both the camera and NVR, both of the same brand for best results.

Video Analytics Capabilities include:
Motion Detection
Face Detection
Vehicle Detection
Region Entrance
Region Exiting
Loitering Detection
People Gathering Detection
Fast Moving
Parking Detection
Unattended Baggage Detection
Object Removal
Defocus Detection
Sudden Scene Change
Passive Infrared
Line Crossing
Intrusion Detection
License Plate Recognition

All this technology may all be less helpful to a home owner than the NSA and TSA but it is fun to play with and very affordable. Suppose someone drives their SUV over your inflatable lawn Santa? About half the list above would apply.

==

This Friday the new cameras get installed, I will be able to share more after that.

Ten or twelve years ago my first CCTV system cost me $10,000. This upgrade will cost about one third that including the labor a professional electrician who specializes in camera installations and the two new purple hard drives.

I guess what I like best about CCTV is that it is always completely humiliating to the jerk in court. With verbal testimony everyone tells their side and of course the defendant will always argue that you are exaggerating if not lying. In my experience as the guy with the videos, when someone does something really stupid and when you catch it on video and it is just flat out humiliating and beyond any defense other than to beg the court for mercy. Public humiliation is a strong deterrent.

BTW, By all reports H.265+ is buggy and to be avoided. Buying NVR and cameras both capable of H.265 (no plus) is a hardware feature worth looking for. The improved compression at the camera increases frame rates over the coax which is the bottleneck in most systems. Any system that is H.265+ capable will be H2.65 capable as well, just check your settings.

Blessings of the Season, to one and all.

Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

(16) 5MP Alibi CCTV cameras & Alibi NVR just to keep an eye on things.
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post #128 of 170 Old 01-02-2019, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
I have been out of touch for a while, Mea Culpa.

On 12/12/18 I had a package stolen off of my patio, one might think the 12 exterior cameras would be a deterrent? The police have video. I was not impressed at all with the quality of the video using 1080p cameras even in daylight.

I am in the process of replacing all my 16 cameras and I replaced my NVR.

I have had superb support from Supercircuits.com which the same as AlibiSecurity.com. They repackage Nikvision, they only sell Alibi brand to dealers/installers but in most cases they will sell the exact same item, unbranded, at very substantial savings.

I replaced 15 of my cameras with model WL-TC5DV (5.0 Megapixel HD-TVI 135' IR Vandalproof Outdoor Varifocal Dome Security Camera), The cameras are EXIR, Sony Starvis and motorized zoom 5MP cameras. By stacking discounts just before Christmas I paid about $126 each for the cameras. Truth be told, I have the cameras here, but not installed until 1/4/19, the cameras were manufactured on 4/18 so they may no longer be state of the art. I suspect something there will always be something better just ahead.

These are not IP cameras, I am already wired for R59 coax.

I purchased a 16 camera NVR (WL-T1611H) which is an unbranded Alibi 4100H. That is currently installed and I am well pleased with it. I paid about $350 with Black Friday discounts.

I also purchased two WD 10TB Purple hard drives from Amazon for about $612, together I should have about 5-6 weeks history (with my sixteen 5MP cameras). For me hard drives totaled about 20% of total hardware costs.

In my opinion there are 3 compelling technical reasons to consider a CCTV system now as opposed to a short time ago.

1) with Sony Starvis and EXIR recent cameras have much improved night vision, and honestly I suspect even more impressive night vision will always be just ahead.

2) Just a few years ago, 1MP or 2MP camera resolution was state of the art. Now 3MP, 4MP, 5MP, 6MP, 8MP, and 12MP cameras are for sale. The higher resolution cameras only work over coax cable at reduced frame rates, but you are not recording for entertainment but for video evidence. The compromise I struck was (16) 5MP (2592x1944) cameras at 12 fps.

3) A whole new technology named "Video Analytics" is blossoming. Search on YouTube for many impressive videos. This technology requires capabilities in both the camera and NVR, both of the same brand for best results.

Video Analytics Capabilities include:
Motion Detection
Face Detection
Vehicle Detection
Region Entrance
Region Exiting
Loitering Detection
People Gathering Detection
Fast Moving
Parking Detection
Unattended Baggage Detection
Object Removal
Defocus Detection
Sudden Scene Change
Passive Infrared
Line Crossing
Intrusion Detection
License Plate Recognition

All this technology may all be less helpful to a home owner than the NSA and TSA but it is fun to play with and very affordable. Suppose someone drives their SUV over your inflatable lawn Santa? About half the list above would apply.

==

This Friday the new cameras get installed, I will be able to share more after that.

Ten or twelve years ago my first CCTV system cost me $10,000. This upgrade will cost about one third that including the labor a professional electrician who specializes in camera installations and the two new purple hard drives.

I guess what I like best about CCTV is that it is always completely humiliating to the jerk in court. With verbal testimony everyone tells their side and of course the defendant will always argue that you are exaggerating if not lying. In my experience as the guy with the videos, when someone does something really stupid and when you catch it on video and it is just flat out humiliating and beyond any defense other than to beg the court for mercy. Public humiliation is a strong deterrent.

BTW, By all reports H.265+ is buggy and to be avoided. Buying NVR and cameras both capable of H.265 (no plus) is a hardware feature worth looking for. The improved compression at the camera increases frame rates over the coax which is the bottleneck in most systems. Any system that is H.265+ capable will be H2.65 capable as well, just check your settings.

Blessings of the Season, to one and all.

Good to hear from you. Thanks for checking in.


Sorry you got a package stolen.


Why did you go with a R59 coax camera system, instead of IP cameras? I don't know much about R59. What are the pros and cons of the two systems?


I tried setting up some rules that used tripwire for detection. But it didn't work as well as I'd like. It started a few seconds late sometimes, or not at all.


I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.


I went back to motion detection to isolate events (again also still recording 24/7). It gives a few more false positives (like during strong wind, or if a neighbor turns on/off their lights), but that's ok.



Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?



Didn't you also have a CCTV system, with the IP cameras, before? Isn't that also called a CCTV system?


I look forward to you following up after installation.
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post #129 of 170 Old 01-03-2019, 06:54 PM
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I'll try to give useful and intelligent answers to your questions. Tomorrow at 8 am the electrician is showing up, so I'll be playing fast and loose with verbs, "had" ~ system I will have for only a few more hours. "Have" ~ My new system after tomorrow morning.

I had a 16 camera coax system all ready, the wires are already pulled and in place. For a completely new system I assumed I would go with an IP system but after talking to a few professional installers and listening to their stories, coax systems are just simple and they work without a lot of configuration issues. One can get videos from a far greater distance over coax than over IP, although this is not a factor for my home on a modest double lot.

IP systems can pull much higher resolution at higher frame rates, so looking to the future one might assume IP is the way to go. As we speak the maximum frame rate over 5MP is 12fps, which is perfectly acceptable for my needs. Just a few years ago nobody anticipated the high MP coax cameras available today and in contrast to IP cameras, the installer makes only one trip and everything works the first time and forever. It is common for IP setups to require multiple visits to get the network set up, and keep the network working as intended.

One can argue that 6MP and 8MP are simply wide aspect versions of 5MP and offer nothing over 5MP in terms of actual detail. 6MP and 8MP will however greatly decrease frame rates over coax, but not over IP. In my situation I accept less frame width and maintain the detail available in zoom with an acceptable frame rate. When I owned fewer cameras field of view was more important.

I've read negative things about "Line Crossing" heuristics. That is a complex and unreliable way to accomplish something done much better and more reliably by simpler methods. In particular area based "Intrusion Detection" seems far more robust way to reliably accomplish very similar results. Intrusion Detection also plays well with motion detection areas, as it should the methodology is very similar.

> I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.

I think that is what most smart folks are doing. Just substitute "Intrusion Detection" areas for "Line Crossing" as alarm event criteria and I think you will be very pleased with the results.

I am limited to two 10TB hard drives, if I can avoid continuous recording and get reliable event recording I'd like to try it. I may get a 12 week history as opposed to a 5 week history?

> Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?

What I have will be much better than what I had, maybe the better question is will 5MP night recordings be as good or superior to the 2MP night recordings they crow about at ipcamtalk? I don't honestly know yet. I don't expect to far off the pace.

I think you once mentioned ipcamtalk ? That community doesn't like anything > 2MP. At 2MP the frame rates are the same IP or coax. I suspect brand new large commercial installations are dominated by IP camera systems but the bulk of existing customers already have coax wire in place. If you can get the job done with existing wiring why pull new wires? I have the ability to add two IP cameras to my NVR. I will first try my system with 16 new cameras and see if I have any critical blind spots.

There is a huge ethical and moral difference between offering welcome advice and demanding submissive obedience from new guys. It is a issue of possessing healthy boundaries and exercising genuine respect for others. Their side businesses of pushing Blue Iris software, pushing grey market hardware and asking members to pay for suspect camera reviews demonstrates a conflict of interest and are a red flag that all is not as it appears. In my experience, my brief time at ipcamtalk was very cult like. They have a self serving agenda and were very pushy with it. In contrast if someone asks me what loudspeakers or PC motherboards I prefer I tell them, but what they do after asking my advise is a matter of complete indifference to me.

I've been around far too long to drink their cool-aid, thank-you.

> I look forward to you following up after installation.

As soon as I am able I will post a update.

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Yesterday I had a camera mechanic, Larry, working at my home for 10 hours, I like the guy professionally very much. He replaced 12 of my 16 cameras, four cameras are fascia mounted under my rain gutters and lack the space for a 7" diameter dome camera.

So four bullet cameras were sent as of last Friday and next Friday I'll get them mounted. Larry liked the fit and finish of my new cameras very much, they have a thin metal strap connecting the dome to the actual camera so when you are 20' up in the air balanced on a ladder you can't drop the dome to earth and scratch it.

The domes turret in toothed mechanism so maybe each horizontal adjustment maybe 5 or ten degree jumps? I can live with that. I liked the varifocal feature over all, point to correct center, adjust elevation and one can adjust field of view and focus from inside by remote PTZ. Those functions were both "in increments" and not infinitely variable. It ends up not being much of an actual limitation in the real world. The pluses out weigh the minuses.

I have a priority of image quality and honestly my first daylight impression was not all I hopped for. The NVR does auto detect the new cameras and changes most, not all, of the camera settings. I manually changed video quality = highest, bitrate = variable, Resolution = 2592x1944. It was when I changed "Max Bitrate Kbps" from 1024 to 10240 that got a ten times improvement in image quality. That setting took a day for me to find and change.

If I liked the night image at the lower bitrate I suspect I will love it all the more at 10 times higher the bitrate. I'll know more tonight. The EXIR worked as advertised, the night images, particularly the depth of field and lack of over bright near field is much improved. Distant objects, well beyond the range of the IR lamps are very recognizable.

There is a learning curve to getting the most out of one's system. I'll get back to you when I know more and post some images.

Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

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post #131 of 170 Old 01-05-2019, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll try to give useful and intelligent answers to your questions. Tomorrow at 8 am the electrician is showing up, so I'll be playing fast and loose with verbs, "had" ~ system I will have for only a few more hours. "Have" ~ My new system after tomorrow morning.

I had a 16 camera coax system all ready, the wires are already pulled and in place. For a completely new system I assumed I would go with an IP system but after talking to a few professional installers and listening to their stories, coax systems are just simple and they work without a lot of configuration issues. One can get videos from a far greater distance over coax than over IP, although this is not a factor for my home on a modest double lot.

IP systems can pull much higher resolution at higher frame rates, so looking to the future one might assume IP is the way to go. As we speak the maximum frame rate over 5MP is 12fps, which is perfectly acceptable for my needs. Just a few years ago nobody anticipated the high MP coax cameras available today and in contrast to IP cameras, the installer makes only one trip and everything works the first time and forever. It is common for IP setups to require multiple visits to get the network set up, and keep the network working as intended.

One can argue that 6MP and 8MP are simply wide aspect versions of 5MP and offer nothing over 5MP in terms of actual detail. 6MP and 8MP will however greatly decrease frame rates over coax, but not over IP. In my situation I accept less frame width and maintain the detail available in zoom with an acceptable frame rate. When I owned fewer cameras field of view was more important.

I've read negative things about "Line Crossing" heuristics. That is a complex and unreliable way to accomplish something done much better and more reliably by simpler methods. In particular area based "Intrusion Detection" seems far more robust way to reliably accomplish very similar results. Intrusion Detection also plays well with motion detection areas, as it should the methodology is very similar.

> I do record 24/7, it's just I also had rules for tripwire so I could isolate incidents easier.

I think that is what most smart folks are doing. Just substitute "Intrusion Detection" areas for "Line Crossing" as alarm event criteria and I think you will be very pleased with the results.

I am limited to two 10TB hard drives, if I can avoid continuous recording and get reliable event recording I'd like to try it. I may get a 12 week history as opposed to a 5 week history?

> Do you think the 5MP cameras offered better video both during the day, and at night, compared to your old cameras?

What I have will be much better than what I had, maybe the better question is will 5MP night recordings be as good or superior to the 2MP night recordings they crow about at ipcamtalk? I don't honestly know yet. I don't expect to far off the pace.

I think you once mentioned ipcamtalk ? That community doesn't like anything > 2MP. At 2MP the frame rates are the same IP or coax. I suspect brand new large commercial installations are dominated by IP camera systems but the bulk of existing customers already have coax wire in place. If you can get the job done with existing wiring why pull new wires? I have the ability to add two IP cameras to my NVR. I will first try my system with 16 new cameras and see if I have any critical blind spots.

There is a huge ethical and moral difference between offering welcome advice and demanding submissive obedience from new guys. It is a issue of possessing healthy boundaries and exercising genuine respect for others. Their side businesses of pushing Blue Iris software, pushing grey market hardware and asking members to pay for suspect camera reviews demonstrates a conflict of interest and are a red flag that all is not as it appears. In my experience, my brief time at ipcamtalk was very cult like. They have a self serving agenda and were very pushy with it. In contrast if someone asks me what loudspeakers or PC motherboards I prefer I tell them, but what they do after asking my advise is a matter of complete indifference to me.

I've been around far too long to drink their cool-aid, thank-you.

> I look forward to you following up after installation.

As soon as I am able I will post a update.

Yes, in the same section of the NVR settings where I saw line crossing, I also saw intrusion detection.


Thanks for your recommendation to try it. I will probably try it one day when I have several hours to change the settings and test it out.


I ended up going with a 8 TB hard drive. With 7 cameras recording 24/7, and the garage one on motion only, and with variable bit and H.265 compression, I was able to get 90 days of recording (give or take 1 day, depending on how you count the last day). That also included about 1.5 weeks where I was using constant bitrate at the beginning, and saw that it was taking much more space than I had anticipated using online storage calculators. VBR took about 1/2 the space of constant bitrate for my setup.


I have my cameras at 15 fps.


If your cameras aren't IP cameras, can you still view them remotely, on a remote network?


Or, if all that is needed is for the NVR to be on the network, then can you still view them remotely?


Since they are variable lens, can you adjust the zoom through the NVR settings, like an IP camera?


I also got variable lens cameras. I made adjustments on 3 of the cameras. As you said, it does it in small increments.



I don't know if I mentioned ipcamtalk before, but I did also use them as a resource.


Many on there suggested Blue Iris. I decided it wasn't for me. I liked the cleaner physical setup of a NVR, and I feel it's simpler. I did get a NVR with PoE switches built in, and I now realize it's louder than I expected. But I accepted it and got used to it. I think it makes for a better physical setup than having a separate PoE switch.


Can you also post a picture of a camera (from the same location) from your old system, and new system, for both day and night)? So let's say Camera 2 old, at night, and camera 2 new, at night. And then the same for daytime. It would make for a helpful comparison.

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Quote:
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Yesterday I had a camera mechanic, Larry, working at my home for 10 hours, I like the guy professionally very much. He replaced 12 of my 16 cameras, four cameras are fascia mounted under my rain gutters and lack the space for a 7" diameter dome camera.

So four bullet cameras were sent as of last Friday and next Friday I'll get them mounted. Larry liked the fit and finish of my new cameras very much, they have a thin metal strap connecting the dome to the actual camera so when you are 20' up in the air balanced on a ladder you can't drop the dome to earth and scratch it.

The domes turret in toothed mechanism so maybe each horizontal adjustment maybe 5 or ten degree jumps? I can live with that. I liked the varifocal feature over all, point to correct center, adjust elevation and one can adjust field of view and focus from inside by remote PTZ. Those functions were both "in increments" and not infinitely variable. It ends up not being much of an actual limitation in the real world. The pluses out weigh the minuses.

I have a priority of image quality and honestly my first daylight impression was not all I hopped for. The NVR does auto detect the new cameras and changes most, not all, of the camera settings. I manually changed video quality = highest, bitrate = variable, Resolution = 2592x1944. It was when I changed "Max Bitrate Kbps" from 1024 to 10240 that got a ten times improvement in image quality. That setting took a day for me to find and change.

If I liked the night image at the lower bitrate I suspect I will love it all the more at 10 times higher the bitrate. I'll know more tonight. The EXIR worked as advertised, the night images, particularly the depth of field and lack of over bright near field is much improved. Distant objects, well beyond the range of the IR lamps are very recognizable.

There is a learning curve to getting the most out of one's system. I'll get back to you when I know more and post some images.

Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?


Also, if Sony makes the Starvis sensor, why don't they make the whole camera?


What do the acronyms EXR and EXIR exactly stand for? It has something to do with the sensor, but I've never been able to figure out the exact acronyms.
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Do your new cameras offer 2 way talkback ability?


This is something I think I can do with mine, but I haven't been able to figure out exactly what I need or how to set it up. It's not as big of a priority though.
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https://www.cctv-hd-systems.co.uk/Hd...Explained.html

https://www.use-ip.co.uk/forum/threa...ir-camera.708/

> Do your new cameras offer 2 way talkback ability?

"Up the Coax (UTC) technology enables you to control the camera’s zoom levels and onscreen display (OSD) from your web browser, digital video recorder interface such as the Central Management System or smart phone app."

With UTC I can zoom in or out, adjust focus from inside or using a smart phone.

If my cameras were PTZ I could do pan and tilt as well.

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I never considered this subject until I purchased 5MP cameras. For the basis of a discussion, assume one is watching 4x4 cameras, 16 camera view on a 4k display.

With 980H cameras each of those 16 boxes will still have as many pixels as the original feed from the camera. (more or less)

With 1080P cameras to squeeze 16 times (1920x1080) on the same 4k monitor the app discards 75% of the pixels.

With 5MP cameras the viewing app discards 90% of the pixels.

Now by using a 2x2 view and paging, or pulling up only one camera at a time the view one can greatly improve the detail with 5MP cameras in a way totally unnecessary with my old 980H cameras.

I mention this because width all my old 4k 4x4 screen captures one up view was no better than 4x4, bigger yes, better no. But if I post a 4x4 of all my new cameras I will be discarding 90% of the detail.

I am posting a new 4x4 screen capture with the stated caveat, cameras 05, 06, 08, 09 have not yet been replaced. I still think the difference is "day and night" if I may abuse the phrase.

> Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?

No turret, one hidden, 4 bullet, 11 dome.

BTW to make the screen captures small enough to upload all were saved with 75% compression.

To the naked eye outside is very dark, one can see lights in the distance but they provide no help in seeing what is going on. My porch is is entirely unlit outside of the EXIR.
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Quote:
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I never considered this subject until I purchased 5MP cameras. For the basis of a discussion, assume one is watching 4x4 cameras, 16 camera view on a 4k display.

With 980H cameras each of those 16 boxes will still have as many pixels as the original feed from the camera. (more or less)

With 1080P cameras to squeeze 16 times (1920x1080) on the same 4k monitor the app discards 75% of the pixels.

With 5MP cameras the viewing app discards 90% of the pixels.

Now by using a 2x2 view and paging, or pulling up only one camera at a time the view one can greatly improve the detail with 5MP cameras in a way totally unnecessary with my old 980H cameras.

I mention this because width all my old 4k 4x4 screen captures one up view was no better than 4x4, bigger yes, better no. But if I post a 4x4 of all my new cameras I will be discarding 90% of the detail.

I am posting a new 4x4 screen capture with the stated caveat, cameras 05, 06, 08, 09 have not yet been replaced. I still think the difference is "day and night" if I may abuse the phrase.

> Great. Can you also post a picture, or a link to a picture of one of your cameras look like? They are dome-turrets?

No turret, one hidden, 4 bullet, 11 dome.

BTW to make the screen captures small enough to upload all were saved with 75% compression.

To the naked eye outside is very dark, one can see lights in the distance but they provide no help in seeing what is going on. My porch is is entirely unlit outside of the EXIR.

Thanks for the pictures.


Is it raining in your pictures? Cameras 5, 6, and 8 don't look that good, from your old cameras.


I agree cameras 1 - 4 look good.


You also made me realize that the next time it's raining somewhat heavy, I should look at my cameras to see what they look like when it's raining.
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No rain, just old cameras.

Alleluia is a 80 lb black lab puppy. I let him out last night, and left the flood lights off. On the new cameras I could watch his every move, on the old cameras he was near invisible. New camera "06 lilies" shows where he has been trying to dig under the fence at a flower bed and escape. I don't need a $1,000 purebred lab on the loose at 3am in my neighborhood so this week I'll find a better way to patch the hole.

Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.

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No rain, just old cameras.

Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.

Use red lights.


My Swann NVR has triggers (Alarm connections) that control red lights once they since (Within grid) motion.
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I don't think I'll need lights at all with the new cameras.

Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

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post #140 of 170 Old 01-08-2019, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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No rain, just old cameras.

Alleluia is a 80 lb black lab puppy. I let him out last night, and left the flood lights off. On the new cameras I could watch his every move, on the old cameras he was near invisible. New camera "06 lilies" shows where he has been trying to dig under the fence at a flower bed and escape. I don't need a $1,000 purebred lab on the loose at 3am in my neighborhood so this week I'll find a better way to patch the hole.

Interestingly the (2) 300w flood lights don't help the new cameras they just throw a bad glare.
Nice to know you can watch the dogs without needing to turn on more lights.

Also, I remember now that I did try the intrusion detection. I had formed a box, and set bi-direction triggers for both things entering the boxed area, and things leaving.

As I mentioned, it wasn't as reliable as I wanted. Maybe I needed to adjust things more, but after already having spent a few hours, I decided I felt more comfortable with motion detection instead of intrusion.

Are your cameras 9 - 12 new too, in the screen shot from a few days ago?

And does your system have 2 way talkback?

Also, what provides power to the cameras? Is it the R59 coax cable itself, similar to how IP cameras can be powered by the Ethernet cable?
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Not much difference between motion detection and intrusion detection except I run motion detection on every camera and intrusion detection is only supported on two cameras with coax cameras.

Camera 09 Azaleas is old. Cameras 10-16 inclusive are all new.

Lawd willin' the four new bullet cameras will be here tomorrow and if all goes well may be installed Thursday as opposed to Friday. I am excited about that.

A spool of coax cctv wire is siamesed with a pair of 12 leads that supply power. On the wall next to the shelf where the NVR lives is a power distribution box, with terminals and a transformer to power maybe 48 cameras? So the coax mounts to the back of the NVR but all the power leads run to the power distribution box.

> And does your system have 2 way talkback?

All my cameras are varifocal, Alibi calls it UTC, or up-the-cable. I can adjust zoom and focus on any camera from my desktop. I highly value that feature. None of my cameras have audio if that is what you mean?

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> And does your system have 2 way talkback?

All my cameras are varifocal, Alibi calls it UTC, or up-the-cable. I can adjust zoom and focus on any camera from my desktop. I highly value that feature. None of my cameras have audio if that is what you mean?
Yeah, I meant 2-way audio. But now you just said your cameras don't have audio.

My cameras have audio. After the cameras were installed, I was glad I went with the audio version, as it helps hearing things sometimes.

I can also say from the incident that happened in 2017 (when I was awake and heard things), that having the audio can help the case even more. (I didn't have cameras then).

It seems that it's also possible for me to have 2-way audio, where I can say something remotely and have it transmitted out across the cameras. But I haven't exactly figured out how, and it's not a high priority for me.

Also, seeing camera 9 vs. the others also confirmed that your new cameras are better.
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Larry the camera guy came one day early because the cameras were here and he was nice enough to fit me in. To see the new cameras at their best I had to make a few adjustments. View one up at a time, select stream 1 which is raw camera feed and set Max Bitrate from each camera to 10240 kbps. I am very pleased with the result.

04 front door, I wish I could read the license plate but the car is moving too quickly, one can easily read the Bus Stop sign. Camera is 50' from the property line, road and right a way is 40' wide, on a 45 degree angle the Bus stop sign is maybe 130-150 feet away.

03 Driveway, I can make out every vertical of the thin iron fence 100' away, I wish I could read the license plate, but I can't. Car must be about 140' away.

05 Lilies, fifteen years ago I had a problem with folks standing on the porch throwing half bricks at my service dog. I haven't had any problems since then. If I did I'd zoom a camera in on each porch to catch faces. I can see the detail on their rear porch railing 80' away.

4x4 daylight new cameras, this shot can't show the detail but in general I am very pleased, all 16 cameras are new 5 MP.

I'll post some night shots later tonight.
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post #144 of 170 Old 01-16-2019, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Larry the camera guy came one day early because the cameras were here and he was nice enough to fit me in. To see the new cameras at their best I had to make a few adjustments. View one up at a time, select stream 1 which is raw camera feed and set Max Bitrate from each camera to 10240 kbps. I am very pleased with the result.

04 front door, I wish I could read the license plate but the car is moving too quickly, one can easily read the Bus Stop sign. Camera is 50' from the property line, road and right a way is 40' wide, on a 45 degree angle the Bus stop sign is maybe 130-150 feet away.

03 Driveway, I can make out every vertical of the thin iron fence 100' away, I wish I could read the license plate, but I can't. Car must be about 140' away.

05 Lilies, fifteen years ago I had a problem with folks standing on the porch throwing half bricks at my service dog. I haven't had any problems since then. If I did I'd zoom a camera in on each porch to catch faces. I can see the detail on their rear porch railing 80' away.

4x4 daylight new cameras, this shot can't show the detail but in general I am very pleased, all 16 cameras are new 5 MP.

I'll post some night shots later tonight.
Looks good.

For the multi camera pic, for some reason camera 13 looks dark.

Other than that, they all look good.

I had considered cameras which were supposed to be better at license plate recognition. I think they pan and auto zoom when they sense a car.

But I still thought that it wouldn't work as good in the real world in my case, because there are also bushes in the neighborhood that could obstruct the view.

And doing it for every car that entered or left the area would be too much.

I can identify the make/model, and possibly get a partial license late, depending on how the car goes, so that should be a good start.

Looking forward to your night shots.
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Camera 13 is a hidden pinhole camera in the Foyer that has no IR. I assume if I open the door I'll have the lights on in the foyer.

Camera 08 Tomato Patch is also a problem at night. I wanted to catch the yard in the foreground so none of the hedges in the distance are illuminated by IR. I need to re-aim the camera of install a supplemental IR spotlight.

Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

(16) 5MP Alibi CCTV cameras & Alibi NVR just to keep an eye on things.
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post #146 of 170 Old 01-16-2019, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
Camera 13 is a hidden pinhole camera in the Foyer that has no IR. I assume if I open the door I'll have the lights on in the foyer.

Camera 08 Tomato Patch is also a problem at night. I wanted to catch the yard in the foreground so none of the hedges in the distance are illuminated by IR. I need to re-aim the camera of install a supplemental IR spotlight.
Will be interesting to see how camera 08 looks, when you post a nighttime picture.

Any estimate as to how much storage space per day your old cameras took, vs. your new ones?

Can you also re-post your bitrate settings (if they're the same for all cameras)?

And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?
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post #147 of 170 Old 01-16-2019, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Also, nice to see you list some other devices in your signature.

If/when I get more serious about some of them (as in I'm ready to research and buy), I will tag you or PM you with a link to a thread, so I can get your input too.
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post #148 of 170 Old 01-16-2019, 05:39 PM
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> And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?

yes

Camera Settings
Outdoor= Outdoor
Indoor= Indoor
Front End Resolution= 5MP20
every camera = 2592x1944
Video Quality = Highest
Frame Rate = 12
Max Bit Rate = 10240
Encoding = H.265 (without the plus)

My 4 front cameras record continuously.

all other cameras record only on motion. I have a fenced in yard so not much goes on in my yard.

I had 9314 GB on disk one on 1/10/19, six days ago.
Now I have 6599 GB so that comes to 2715 GB over roughly 6 days

that comes to about 450GB/day so 18.628 TB should last about 41 days

08 Tomato patch image posted per request.

Old cameras were about 1MP recording on 10TB which lasted almost 90 days.
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Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

(16) 5MP Alibi CCTV cameras & Alibi NVR just to keep an eye on things.
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post #149 of 170 Old 01-18-2019, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Wright View Post
> And you're doing 12 fps, with H.265, correct?

yes

Camera Settings
Outdoor= Outdoor
Indoor= Indoor
Front End Resolution= 5MP20
every camera = 2592x1944
Video Quality = Highest
Frame Rate = 12
Max Bit Rate = 10240
Encoding = H.265 (without the plus)

My 4 front cameras record continuously.

all other cameras record only on motion. I have a fenced in yard so not much goes on in my yard.

I had 9314 GB on disk one on 1/10/19, six days ago.
Now I have 6599 GB so that comes to 2715 GB over roughly 6 days

that comes to about 450GB/day so 18.628 TB should last about 41 days

08 Tomato patch image posted per request.

Old cameras were about 1MP recording on 10TB which lasted almost 90 days.
I see what you mean about the tomato patch at night. It's not the greatest as-is, but it still gets most of the middle. I think you'd still get adequate light near a house opening (door/window).

However, if you want good visibility at night for the tomato patch itself, then agree, an additional IR would be good.

So it seems that if you had the same camera fps and bitrate on your old cameras, they used about 111 GB/day. Probably a little more once actual usable space is accounted for.

So at 5x the MP, it uses less than 5x the space.

I'll calculate how much space my cameras take, this weekend. When I checked in mid December, I saw it was 90 days, give or take the last day. But that included about 1.5 weeks where I wasn't using variable bitrate. After that, I switched to variable bitrate. So when I calculate now, I should get more than 90 days. I have 7 cameras continuous, 1 motion, at 15 fps.

8 TB hard drive, with about 7.27 usable.

If you can, can you post some night shots from a few other cameras?
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post #150 of 170 Old 01-18-2019, 12:38 PM
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In general I a OK with most of the night views. On Camera 08 the camera is nose down because why record the sky, as a result the far end with the fence is too dark. I found the best place to buy IR illuminators on the internet. B&H Photo has them all.

Enclosed 4 night shots.
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Systems: (3) NASs with 64TB of movies and music; Oppo 105D DAT and optical drive; Rotel RC-1590 Preamp; Yamaha M2 power amp; Magnepan MG 3.7i speakers; 65" Samsung TV

(16) 5MP Alibi CCTV cameras & Alibi NVR just to keep an eye on things.
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