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post #61 of 79 Old 08-01-2019, 02:11 PM
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Have you actually contacted c4? I have heard numerous stories about their support team reaching out directly to end users and getting them set up a regional district manager or something who brings in a known good dealer/tech to look at the issues, etc.
Yes, I contacted C4 and they were helpful and professional. They helped recover the password on the C4 customer account and they provided some guidance so I could resolve the network issues and restore the static IP addresses. The cable company had recently replaced the router with a modem/router and lost the the static addresses in the process (these are the kinds of things that can happen that aren't C4's fault at all, but that was only done in the last 6 months and C4 hadn't worked for years). After restoring the network static routes, I can see all the C4 devices on the network, but none of the zones work. C4 said I needed to pick an installer and register it on my account and then take let them take it from there.

The "current state of the union": The network is correct, all the hardware is online, the original C4 programming is still in place and probably 95% correct, the 5.1 zone will at least change volume on the AVR with SR-250 remote , the 4 "music only" zones don't work. The SR-250 remote itself I find very unintuitive even for me, with a long history of complex remote programming, and it is far less intuitive to the rest of the family. If the SR-250 was the only control device, I wouldn't even think about bothering to get it running again, but now C4 has the smartphone/tablet app, which is a huge benefit and that gives me hope that it will be worthwhile resuscitating it. C4 told me I need the C4 software updated before I can use the app (confirmed by my attempt to use it). I'm told the C4 update radically improves and simplifies streaming, which is also welcome (we currently have a C4 "wireless music bridge" that is apparently no longer needed).

What C4 needs to fix: C4 helped me get the system ready to be resuscitated, but I'm on my own to find an installer to get it working. That's where they are falling short for a system that essentially never worked. Now I'm left on my own to find a dealer. The old dealer was horrible and the quote I got from another dealer was outrageous. Based upon past experiences, my faith that the new dealer will fix it without costing a fortune is zero. My brother-in-law is beyond fed up -- for good reason -- his appetite to spend even another penny on this system is zero because he spent a large sum on and has never used it. I might as well ask him to invest in Enron stock, or kick the football with Lucy holding it. I'm crystal clear that the C4 hardware is great, and that it can work, but the fact is it hasn't and the frustration is valid. What C4 should do for me, and the OP, and everyone who is in the same boat, is allow me to open a "rescue case" -- then C4 coordinates with installers to get it working and get the software updated -- and they should do that for zero or nominal cost -- and (more importantly) zero frustrations or risk. If you think asking for a minimal cost rescue is not reasonable, you aren't thinking from the perspective of somebody who spent a ton of money and has never used the system. You also are not thinking from a business perspective for C4. If C4 offered rescues, then faith among the many customers in the same situation would be restored, word of mouth would not be horrible, and customers will look at expanding automation instead of being tempted to set it on fire every time they walk past it.

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post #62 of 79 Old 08-01-2019, 02:21 PM
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Yes, I contacted C4 and they were helpful and professional. They helped recover the password on the C4 customer account and they provided some guidance so I could resolve the network issues and restore the static IP addresses. The cable company had recently replaced the router with a modem/router and lost the the static addresses in the process (these are the kinds of things that can happen that aren't C4's fault at all, but that was only done in the last 6 months and C4 hadn't worked for years). After restoring the network static routes, I can see all the C4 devices on the network, but none of the zones work. C4 said I needed to pick an installer and register it on my account and then take let them take it from there.

The "current state of the union": The network is correct, all the hardware is online, the original C4 programming is still in place and probably 95% correct, the 5.1 zone will at least change volume on the AVR with SR-250 remote , the 4 "music only" zones don't work. The SR-250 remote itself I find very unintuitive even for me, with a long history of complex remote programming, and it is far less intuitive to the rest of the family. If the SR-250 was the only control device, I wouldn't even think about bothering to get it running again, but now C4 has the smartphone/tablet app, which is a huge benefit and that gives me hope that it will be worthwhile resuscitating it. C4 told me I need the C4 software updated before I can use the app (confiremed by my attempt to use it). I'm told the C4 update radically improves and simplifies streaming, which is also welcome (we currently have a C4 streaming device that is apparently no longer needed).

What C4 needs to fix: C4 helped me get the system ready to be resuscitated, but I'm on my own to find an installer to get it working. That's where they are falling short for a system that essentially never worked. Now I'm left on my own to find a dealer. The old dealer was horrible and the quote I got from another dealer was outrageous. My brother-in-law is beyond fed up -- for good reason -- his appetite to spend even another penny on this system is zero because he spent a large sum on and has never used it. I might as well ask him to invest in Enron stock, or kick the football with Lucy holding it. I'm crystal clear that the C4 hardware is great, and that it can work, but the fact is it hasn't and the frustration is valid. What C4 should do for me, and the OP, and everyone who is in the same boat, is allow me to open a "rescue case" -- the C4 coordinates with installers to get it working and get the software updated -- and they should do that for zero or nominal cost -- and (more importantly) zero frustrations or risk. If you think asking for a minimal cost rescue is not reasonable, you aren't thinking from the perspective of somebody who spent a ton of money and has never used the system. You also are not thinking from a business perspective for C4. If C4 offered rescues, then faith among the many customers in the same situation would be restored, word of mouth would not be horrible, and customers will look at expanding automation instead of being tempted to set it on fire every time they walk past it.
The SR250 is fairly easy when programmed properly - Watch > {Insert source}. my wife and mother in law figured it out, so that's my test that its easy to figure out. The music only zones may not work because of wiring, programming, changing of IP addresses once you got the network set back up, etc. Too many variables and I think some of those were addressed in your post/thread specifically about your issues where several people (as well as C4) came out to assist.

You reached out to C4 directly and they were more than helpful with getting you a resolution. Did your brother reach out to C4 back when the install was done? If so they just said Sorry and closed the door on him? It is hard to come back months/years later and complain and as for a resolution. Again I've seen cases where when the install was going bad C4 did step in. If you come back 2 years later and say oh heck its been awful I didn't like my original installer, well, that is a bit too late. Everyone could do that for a "free tune up" so to speak.

Software updated - be careful there, some software updates can make older hardware obsolete. The nice thing is C4 keeps older OS support along for the ride for years, so you do not have to be on the latest and greatest.
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post #63 of 79 Old 08-01-2019, 02:35 PM
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The SR250 is fairly easy when programmed properly - Watch > {Insert source}. my wife and mother in law figured it out, so that's my test that its easy to figure out. The music only zones may not work because of wiring, programming, changing of IP addresses once you got the network set back up, etc. Too many variables and I think some of those were addressed in your post/thread specifically about your issues where several people (as well as C4) came out to assist.

You reached out to C4 directly and they were more than helpful with getting you a resolution. Did your brother reach out to C4 back when the install was done? If so they just said Sorry and closed the door on him? It is hard to come back months/years later and complain and as for a resolution. Again I've seen cases where when the install was going bad C4 did step in. If you come back 2 years later and say oh heck its been awful I didn't like my original installer, well, that is a bit too late. Everyone could do that for a "free tune up" so to speak.

Software updated - be careful there, some software updates can make older hardware obsolete. The nice thing is C4 keeps older OS support along for the ride for years, so you do not have to be on the latest and greatest.
The SR-250 might be more intuitive when I can hear the things working, but I haven't ever seen it work. I just look at the screen and think "I guess it's supposed to be playing zone 1 now". If I heard it, it might make more sense to me. I know the SR-250 won't be intuitive to the family, but the iPhone/tablet app would be great -- they would understand that in a heartbeat from what I've seen.

C4 answered my questions, but they told me to pick a dealer in order to get anything done. I need to be rescued with C4 providing a "Calgo take me away" solution, then I'll have faith in using a dealer for maintenance.

I prefer to keep the old software, but I have no choice but to update it because the app only works with the latest software. I tried downloading the older app ("Control4 for OS2" instead of "Control4 for OS3") to see if it would work, but it won't connect.
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post #64 of 79 Old 08-01-2019, 02:42 PM
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The SR-250 might be more intuitive when I can hear the things working, but I haven't ever seen it work. I just look at the screen and think "I guess it's supposed to be playing zone 1 now". If I heard it, it might make more sense to me. I know the SR-250 won't be intuitive to the family, but the iPhone/tablet app would be great -- they would understand that in a heartbeat from what I've seen.

C4 answered my questions, but they told me to pick a dealer in order to get anything done. I need to be rescued with C4 providing a "Calgo take me away" solution, then I'll have faith in using a dealer for maintenance.

I prefer to keep the old software, but I have no choice but to update it because the app only works with the latest software. I tried downloading the older app ("Control4 for OS2" instead of "Control4 for OS3") to see if it would work, but it won't connect.
you are confusing OS2 vs OS3. OS2 is basically firmware 2.10.6 or lower and OS is 3.0 (brand new, so no 3.1 or higher yet). so it depends what OS is on the controller. If its a 2+ year old system and you have not had a tech over in years, its impossible to be on OS3. OS3 was released in May I think, its very new.

Re: the C4 app, yeah its great, but any app is awful for TV viewing. Who can channel surf using their iphone? Just my two cents. A good wand remote is required hardware, be it C4, Savant, Harmony/logitech, etc.

Again - when your brother had issues during the install and was not pleased, did he contact c4? You had issues and they resolved it but how can they be expected to resolve a he said/she said issue from years ago that was not reported to them?
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post #65 of 79 Old 08-01-2019, 03:44 PM
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you are confusing OS2 vs OS3. OS2 is basically firmware 2.10.6 or lower and OS is 3.0 (brand new, so no 3.1 or higher yet). so it depends what OS is on the controller. If its a 2+ year old system and you have not had a tech over in years, its impossible to be on OS3. OS3 was released in May I think, its very new.
The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.

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Re: the C4 app, yeah its great, but any app is awful for TV viewing. Who can channel surf using their iphone? Just my two cents. A good wand remote is required hardware, be it C4, Savant, Harmony/logitech, etc.
I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.

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Again - when your brother had issues during the install and was not pleased, did he contact c4? You had issues and they resolved it but how can they be expected to resolve a he said/she said issue from years ago that was not reported to them?
It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.
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post #66 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 06:14 AM
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The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.



I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.



It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.
Log into customer.control4.com
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS? I find it VERY hard to believe the app will not work with your system without an update. I've been with C4 since before 2.5.3 (5+ years) and each OS was available via the app. One thing to note - the app works for free only on your home network (wifi or VPN). If you want to use it without VPN off your network (mobile data or someone else's wifi) you need to pay for 4sight which is $99/year. So maybe that is why they said you were not eligible as you are not paying for 4sight.

the SR250 is not a touch screen remote, its a basic remote with up/down arrows for volume/channels, numerical buttons to select channels, a previous button to toggle back and forth and the 4 color buttons to match most cable/telco colored buttons. You can also have soft keys you can program to do other things as well. Its a normal wand remote control. You press Watch > {Insert source} and start watching tv. in fact people complain on the c4forums that is too plain jane and not techie enough. I have to be honest, I am confused how a properly programmed SR250 remote is considered too techy?

Unfortunately it seems like no one got with C4 during the messy install. I am fairly sure they would have provided support at that time. To come back a few years later is a bit too late as people could take advantage of that situation. It is what it is.

I know in other posts of yours I suggested reaching out to a few remote dealers - they can do a quick assessment and give you a cost well below the $s you are tossing out there to get you back up and running properly.
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post #67 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 06:36 AM
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That's very believable.


Some people can't just enjoy what they own, they need to convince themselves others buying something more expensive are being ripped off. The PC guy who is convinced everyone who owns Apple is "paying for marketing", or the Linux guy who is convinced both the PC and Apple guys are idiots.

This forum has had such characters predicting the demise of these companies going back well over 20 years. Except 20 years ago it was their PC based system running $100 software that could do everything the "over priced dead end systems" do. I just did a search on same and the first post that came was this hilarious and purposely sarcastic 2007 post.


Some things never change.
ah yes, that post brings back memories.
That was more about two PC based automation products than it ever was about Crestron. And, both of those PC based systems still are working well. What was referenced as "MainLobby" is now "myServer". CQC is still CQC. And yes, both have replaced C4 and a few Crestron systems in both residential and commercial installations.

What was taken out of context is the "out of the box" vs. the "custom" installations. Mainlobby / myServer software installs so it works with default capability and a default user interface out of the box similar to, but with more capability than what a "smartthings hub" does out of the box. Multizone music, lighting, climate control, movie catalog and launch, etc. Once that is working in a given installation, then one can "customize" the obvious things like naming of zones. Or one can modify the default user interface to completely customize it similar to what a Crestron system can do (well beyond what one can do with Control4). Adding a floorplan view is an example of that customization. Certainly no two project floorplans and device placement is the same. This does take time (We take typically 8 hours for most custom jobs if you are used to the design tools). It can take a novice much more time dependent on their skills.

We know the hours because unlike C4 we uniquely offer programming / customization of myServer as a service to assist our Dealers and DIY'rs. So it's not "thousands of hours" as the CQC fan loosely throws out.

I believe CQC is similar capability but I don't think that CQC software installs with any out of the box capability - at least it didn't back in those days....and that was the point that was being debated but never resolved or challenged. Intentional obfuscation by the CQC fan club I believe.

David, I believe you are very entrenched with Crestron, who makes a great product. I have enjoyed looking at some of your job photos. Very impressive.

Back to the C4 discussion...

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post #68 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 08:29 AM
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Log into customer.control4.com
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS? I find it VERY hard to believe the app will not work with your system without an update. I've been with C4 since before 2.5.3 (5+ years) and each OS was available via the app. One thing to note - the app works for free only on your home network (wifi or VPN). If you want to use it without VPN off your network (mobile data or someone else's wifi) you need to pay for 4sight which is $99/year. So maybe that is why they said you were not eligible as you are not paying for 4sight.
All it says when I log in is: "Smart Home OS2 (update available)". It does not show the version. The Control4 support person could see the version and this is what he said (cut & paste from his email): "Once you get your account login taken care of you still wont be able to use the iPhone app. Your controller is running software from 2014 that is not compatible with the current 64Bit apps. Your controller is capable of running our current version of software and just needs to be updated by a Control4 dealer. You can click here to go to our Find a Smart Home Pro site. It will let you search out the other dealers in your area."


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the SR250 is not a touch screen remote, its a basic remote with up/down arrows for volume/channels, numerical buttons to select channels, a previous button to toggle back and forth and the 4 color buttons to match most cable/telco colored buttons. You can also have soft keys you can program to do other things as well. Its a normal wand remote control. You press Watch > {Insert source} and start watching tv. in fact people complain on the c4forums that is too plain jane and not techie enough. I have to be honest, I am confused how a properly programmed SR250 remote is considered too techy?
I know the SR250 is not a touchscreen. That's why I agree, generally, that wand remotes are better and I would personally rather use a wand remote than the touchscreen. The problem isn't that the SR-250 it's too techie for non-techies, it's just too cryptic. Red/green/yellow/blue hot buttons may be ok if you use it every day and the assignments are fresh in your head, but for a vacation home where you are there once or twice a year, or where you have visitors or renters, remembering what those buttons do or figuring out what they do (for first time visitor when nobody is there to guide them) isn't user friendly or intuitive. The app will be much better even if it is more cumbersome.

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Unfortunately it seems like no one got with C4 during the messy install. I am fairly sure they would have provided support at that time. To come back a few years later is a bit too late as people could take advantage of that situation. It is what it is.
The situation wasn't helped by the fact that it was a vacation home. They did what they could do when they were there, they had the installer out multiple times and it didn't work. They are non-technical, so it was impossible for them to get anything done or to know they should have reached out to C4 -- they bought a system with many components, they had no idea whether the problem was the Denon receiver, or the TV, or the cable box, etc. When I went with them to meet with the installer the following year's visit, they didn't have records of the installation (the guy who installed it had left the company), and when we went back next time we visited a year later, they exited the business. C4 can see that it hasn't worked since 2016, they told me that on the phone. They know the installer didn't know what they were doing and that they no longer do C4 installs. It's pretty clear to C4 what happened. No games being played, just an expensive system that never worked.

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I know in other posts of yours I suggested reaching out to a few remote dealers - they can do a quick assessment and give you a cost well below the $s you are tossing out there to get you back up and running properly.
I emailed one contact and received an immediate "thank you for your inquiry" email back, but never heard from him.
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post #69 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 08:37 AM
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The version of software currently on our C4 equipment will not work with C4 app. That was what C4 told me. I tried loading both apps just to try it, but neither works, so what C4 told me was correct. I don't know what versions, I just know we definitely can't use the app with the current version.



I'm with you on that, personally. I despise touchscreen remotes, but people (like both of us) who are experienced with smart remotes, have trouble seeing the perspective of those who aren't AV techies. The RS-250 will not be intuitive to the family. I am certain of that. I'll probably use the RS-250, but the rest of the family will use the app. They were excited when I showed them the app, they were confused when I showed them the remote.



It's a vacation home, so we are not there frequently. We had guests and renters who would try to use it and it wouldn't work. The property manager would have the installers come out and fix it, but it was broken shortly after if it ever worked at all. Unfortunately, we couldn't see most of it first hand. But we are there once or twice a year and it has never worked. When we tried to have a new dealer take it over, the quote was $1100 just to get an already complete configutation working again.
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All it says when I log in is: "Smart Home OS2 (update available)". It does not show the version. The Control4 support person could see the version and this is what he said (cut & paste from his email): "Once you get your account login taken care of you still wont be able to use the iPhone app. Your controller is running software from 2014 that is not compatible with the current 64Bit apps. Your controller is capable of running our current version of software and just needs to be updated by a Control4 dealer. You can click here to go to our Find a Smart Home Pro site. It will let you search out the other dealers in your area."




I know the SR250 is not a touchscreen. That's why I agree, generally, that wand remotes are better and I would personally rather use a wand remote than the touchscreen. The problem isn't that the SR-250 it's too techie for non-techies, it's just too cryptic. Red/green/yellow/blue hot buttons may be ok if you use it every day and the assignments are fresh in your head, but for a vacation home where you are there once or twice a year, or where you have visitors or renters, remembering what those buttons do or figuring out what they do (for first time visitor when nobody is there to guide them) isn't user friendly or intuitive. The app will be much better even if it is more cumbersome.



The situation wasn't helped by the fact that it was a vacation home. They did what they could do when they were there, they had the installer out multiple times and it didn't work. They are non-technical, so it was impossible for them to get anything done or to know they should have reached out to C4 -- they bought a system with many components, they had no idea whether the problem was the Denon receiver, or the TV, or the cable box, etc. When I went with them to meet with the installer the following year's visit, they didn't have records of the installation (the guy who installed it had left the company), and when we went back next time we visited a year later, they exited the business. C4 can see that it hasn't worked since 2016, they told me that on the phone. They know the installer didn't know what they were doing and that they no longer do C4 installs. It's pretty clear to C4 what happened. No games being played, just an expensive system that never worked.



I emailed one contact and received an immediate "thank you for your inquiry" email back, but never heard from him.
What you are saying about the OS is on the main page of the customer portal - did you click through the sub menus per the step by step instructions I gave you? OS2 is anything from 2.0 to 2.10.6 - dozens of possibilities. Please click through. Log into customer.control4.com
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS?

re the red/blue/green/yellow buttons - it maps to the same color buttons on the cable box remote! Usually its for DVR functions like delete a recording, or add it to a recording list. The TV on screen GUI will tell you what the buttons do. Every cable box is different. If you removed C4, and just used the Dish/Cablebox/Telco provided remote it would have those 3-4 colored buttons too - are those too techy? I am not trying to be rude, I think just think you are over complicating things.
https://www.cabletv.com/blog/how-to-...directv-remote - that is a random directtv remote I found online in 2 seconds, it has the 4 color buttons too - is that remote too techie? What's the difference? Trust me, trying to help, not be condescending.

For the last point I won't keep hammering it home, complaining 5 years later about a poor install is not C4's fault. so I'll just let that one go. If you contacted them in real time I am sure it would have been a different outcome. I only mention that so others reading this thread, if they experience massive issues during an install because of an incompetent dealer, they can get some recourse.
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post #70 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 09:24 AM
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What you are saying about the OS is on the main page of the customer portal - did you click through the sub menus per the step by step instructions I gave you? OS2 is anything from 2.0 to 2.10.6 - dozens of possibilities. Please click through. Log into customer.control4.com
click on "my account" on the top kind right off the center then click my system. It should have "My controller" with a name, then 3 lines under, activated date, checked in date and smart home OS - what does it say under Smart Home OS?
Sorry -- I saw the 3 status lines on the home screen and thought that was it, so I kind of glossed over your exact instructions. The OS version 2.5.3.


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re the red/blue/green/yellow buttons - it maps to the same color buttons on the cable box remote! Usually its for DVR functions like delete a recording, or add it to a recording list. The TV on screen GUI will tell you what the buttons do. Every cable box is different. If you removed C4, and just used the Dish/Cablebox/Telco provided remote it would have those 3-4 colored buttons too - are those too techy? I am not trying to be rude, I think just think you are over complicating things.
https://www.cabletv.com/blog/how-to-...directv-remote - that is a random directtv remote I found online in 2 seconds, it has the 4 color buttons too - is that remote too techie? What's the difference? Trust me, trying to help, not be condescending.
It's not too techie, it's too cryptic. Those colored buttons are very far from universal. Comcast doesn't have them at all. I've never used color buttons on anything and I've set up a huge number of systems for friends and families on smart remotes. Buttons labeled "info" "guide" ... are intuitive, or buttons you can label anything you want are intuitive but color buttons you have to memorize or press to see what happens are not. The remotes I use have smart buttons that can be labelled and change context based upon function. A smart remote should do more than just replicate cable (or whatever device you are using) buttons. On our home remote, I added a "Sleep" button (for the TV) and "Fan Power" and "Fan Oscillate" (for a tower fan in the room) that do exactly what they say. It's on the home screen and everybody gets what they do because they are very clearly labeled. It doesn't matter what I can learn, if you can't teach it to your wife, or mother-in-law, it's not an intuitive solution.

To be clear, I'm not here to trash the C4 remote at all -- I only brought it up to clarify why getting the app working was important. I'm not here to trash the C4 remote, or C4 at all. I've stated their hardware is fine and I've pointed out that things like network changes can cause problems and those changes have nothing to do with C4.

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For the last point I won't keep hammering it home, complaining 5 years later about a poor install is not C4's fault. so I'll just let that one go. If you contacted them in real time I am sure it would have been a different outcome. I only mention that so others reading this thread, if they experience massive issues during an install because of an incompetent dealer, they can get some recourse.
The only reason I am in this thread is to offer C4 constructive advice. My story, and the OP's, and Bryan's story are not unique, at all. I would never come into somebody else's thread and take it over to help my own case -- I'm trying to put meat on the bone of issues that C4 should address. All of you can blame bad dealers all you want, but when you have a product that is totally useless (<- that's not a derogatory comment, just a fact) on its own without a successful dealer install, the company that sells that product has a far, far, far greater responsibility to ensure dealers are competent and efficient -- and they should be there to pick up the pieces when things never worked and owners are, very understandably, livid. The dealers/installers are the entire face of their business, it's C4's responsibility to make sure that installer model works perfectly and to step in when it is a total disaster.

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post #71 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 09:35 AM
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Sorry -- I saw the 3 status lines on the home screen and thought that was it, so I kind of glossed over your exact instructions. The OS version 2.5.3.




It's not too techie, it's too cryptic. Those colored buttons are very far from universal. Comcast doesn't have them at all. I've never used color buttons on anything and I've set up a huge number of systems for friends and families on smart remotes. Buttons labeled "info" "guide" ... are intuitive, or buttons you can label anything you want are intuitive but color buttons are not. The remotes I use have smart buttons that can be labelled and change context based upon function. A smart remote should do more than just replicate cable (or whatever device you are using) buttons. On our home remote, I added a "Sleep" button and "Fan Power" and "Fan Oscillate" (for a tower fan in the room) that do exactly what they say. It's on the home screen and everybody gets what they do because they are very clearly labeled. It doesn't matter what I can learn, if you can't teach it to your wife, or mother-in-law, it's not an intuitive solution.

To be clear, I'm not here to trash the C4 remote at all -- I only brought it up to clarify why getting the app working was important. I'm not here to trash the C4 remote, or C4 at all. I've stated their hardware is fine and I've pointed out that things like network changes can cause problems and those changes have nothing to do with C4.



I'll answer this separately later today when I have time. The only reason I am in this thread is to offer C4 constructive advice. My story, and the OP's, and Bryan's story are not unique, at all. I would never come into somebody else's thread and take it over to help my own case -- I'm trying to put meat on the bone of issues that C4 should address. All of you can blame bad dealers all you want, but when you have a product that is totally useless on its own without a successful dealer install, the company that sells that product has a far, far greater responsibility to ensure dealers are competent and efficient -- and they should be there to pick up the pieces when things were never worked.
Comcast uses A, B, C and D buttons https://www.xfinity.com/support/remotes/. Some use 4 colors, some use A-D. So A-D may be intuitive to you, to me its the colors, but its all the same thing, the SR250 is mapped so likely Red is A, Blue is B etc (just made that up but you can see exactly how its mapped in the property drivers). on the comcast UI there are points where it says press A. Like if you are doing VOD, A may be to agree/accept to rent a movie, I don't know because I do not have comcast. Basically 99% of the platforms out there have colors or A-D type buttons. And the C4 remote has an info button, a back button, a DVR button, etc. So those standard ones are on the SR 250 and clearly labeled. And if you do not use any buttons that come on the SR 250 you can program them to do something else of your liking.

2.5.3 works with the C4 app labeled OS2. A few pointers:
1) the first time you log in you have to be on the local wifi network
2) it will only work on the local wifi network unless you pay for the yearly 4sight subscription plan
3) check your customer.control4.com portal to make sure you are not blocking your device or blocking the ability to add new devices. Lastly I think there is a cap on like 10 device or something so make sure you are not at the cap

There was also a certification patch that impacted the version of Composer HE and things on the controller needed a patch as well as updating your Composer HE software. If your Controller was offline for a long period of time it may not have received that patch. That patch should take a few seconds, but it does not require a full system OS upgrade.

2.5.3 is stable enough that a dealer should be able to get you up and running in no time. You can see how it performs and what you like and use the system a bit. If you have an HC800 (or a newer EA controller which I doubt) you could upgrade to OS 3 but if you have an HC250 or any legacy touchscreens (not the T3) you cannot upgrade. Personally, given your issues in the past, get 2.5.3 working and live with it for a while. If it is a guest house, no need to bump up to OS3.

And if you contact C4 in real time during an issue install, they will help. That is all I am trying to say. Hard to cry over spilled milk from 4-5 years ago. I empathize with you 100%, but just trying to help you move forward and let people know currently if they have issues during the install, call C4 directly. They will send out a regional manager to supervise and get another tech in there if needed.
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post #72 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 10:18 AM
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Comcast uses A, B, C and D buttons https://www.xfinity.com/support/remotes/. Some use 4 colors, some use A-D. So A-D may be intuitive to you, to me its the colors, but its all the same thing, the SR250 is mapped so likely Red is A, Blue is B etc (just made that up but you can see exactly how its mapped in the property drivers). on the comcast UI there are points where it says press A. Like if you are doing VOD, A may be to agree/accept to rent a movie, I don't know because I do not have comcast. Basically 99% of the platforms out there have colors or A-D type buttons. And the C4 remote has an info button, a back button, a DVR button, etc. So those standard ones are on the SR 250 and clearly labeled. And if you do not use any buttons that come on the SR 250 you can program them to do something else of your liking.

2.5.3 works with the C4 app labeled OS2. A few pointers:
1) the first time you log in you have to be on the local wifi network
2) it will only work on the local wifi network unless you pay for the yearly 4sight subscription plan
3) check your customer.control4.com portal to make sure you are not blocking your device or blocking the ability to add new devices. Lastly I think there is a cap on like 10 device or something so make sure you are not at the cap

There was also a certification patch that impacted the version of Composer HE and things on the controller needed a patch as well as updating your Composer HE software. If your Controller was offline for a long period of time it may not have received that patch. That patch should take a few seconds, but it does not require a full system OS upgrade.

Great info on the software, I will try that next time I'm there. I was on the local WiFi, and I was definitely 10 devices below the 10-device cap , so that wasn't the problem. The controller was definitely online after I restored the static routing in July, can't tell if it got the auto update or not.

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And if you contact C4 in real time during an issue install, they will help. That is all I am trying to say. Hard to cry over spilled milk from 4-5 years ago. I empathize with you 100%, but just trying to help you move forward and let people know currently if they have issues during the install, call C4 directly. They will send out a regional manager to supervise and get another tech in there if needed.
A good chunk of C4's customer base is totally non-technical when it comes to A/V. They just want to write a large check and have an amazing system work. Techies would probably favor a DYI system like Harmony so they can control it. For non-technical people, like my brother-in-law, they didn't buy C4, or choose C4, or even know there was a thing called C4 in their system. They just bought an entire audio/video system from a dealer that included 20ish speakers in many different rooms, an AVR, several TV's, Cable boxes, a network router, blu-ray players, etc. When it doesn't work, they don't have any idea what is wrong. There is a bunch of stuff they can see (cable box, AVR, router, TV's, Blu-ray) and they don't know which of those is broken. The one thing that doesn't come to mind to a non-techie is C4, because they don't even know it's there or what it is, it's internal plumbing that is identified by 3 line items in an equipment list of 75 items. The don't what C4 is because it's the only thing they can't see and touch, except for the remote, which has a barely readable black-on-black logo text on the bottom of the remote. To say that a non-technical person looking at this sea of equipment should be able to narrow it down to 3 line items of C4 on a huge list of equipment, and then call them directly to rescue them, is to not understand the non-technical customer viewpoint at all. If C4 did a customer satisfaction inquiry or survey after every install, then they could proactively identify disasters and correct them. To expect the non-technical customers to narrow down the root problem, to internal plumbing that is lost in a sea of equipment, is not realistic for non-technical customers.

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post #73 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 10:22 AM
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Great info, I will try that next time I'm there. I was on the local WiFi, and I was definitely 10 devices below the 10-device cap , so that wasn't the problem. The controller was definitely online after I restored the static routing in July, can't tell if it got the auto update or not.



A good chunk of C4's customer base is totally non-technical when it comes to A/V. They just want to write a large check and have an amazing system work. Techies would probably favor a DYI system like Harmony so they can control it. For non-technical people, like my brother-in-law, they didn't buy C4, or choose C4, or even know there was a thing called C4 in their system. They just bought an entire audio/video system from a dealer that included 20ish speakers in many different rooms, an AVR, several TV's, Cable boxes, a network router, blu-ray players, etc. When it doesn't work, they don't have any idea what is wrong. There is a bunch of stuff they can see (cable box, AVR, router, TV's, Blu-ray) and they don't know which of those is broken. The one thing that doesn't come to mind to a non-techie is C4, because they don't even know it's there or what it is, it's internal plumbing that is identified by 3 line items in an equipment list of 75 items. The don't what C4 is because it's the only thing they can't see and touch, except for the remote, which has a barely readable black-on-black logo text on the bottom of the remote. To say that a non-technical person looking at this sea of equipment should be able to narrow it down to 3 line items of C4 on a huge list of equipment, and then call them directly to rescue them, is to not understand the non-technical customer viewpoint at all. If C4 did a customer satisfaction inquiry or survey after every install, then they could proactively identify disasters and correct them. To expect the non-technical customers to narrow down the root problem, to internal plumbing that is lost in a sea of equipment, is not realistic for non-technical customers.
Though I agree with the last part, I am shocked that someone has 20 zone speaker system, TVs, AVRs, etc and has zero idea from a proposal standpoint, a design standpoint, etc how it all ties together. I am not here to put down your brother but someone is asleep at the wheel. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting. They may not know serial drivers from IR drivers but to invest in that sort of work and have no idea? Great example - I just did a big home renovation project and my siding was Hardie siding. I could not stick a siding board on my house to save my life. But we had an issue with the install, so we called Hardie and they sent out someone to fix it. done and done. I knew it was Hardie. I did not write a check to Hardie though.
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post #74 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 10:36 AM
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Though I agree with the last part, I am shocked that someone has 20 zone speaker system, TVs, AVRs, etc and has zero idea from a proposal standpoint, a design standpoint, etc how it all ties together. I am not here to put down your brother but someone is asleep at the wheel. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting. I agree high net worth people want to write a check to get the job done, but I would assume they know WHY they are writing the check and what they are getting.
This is a large chunk of C4's customer base, probably the majority. They were probably in Singapore when they ordered the system in Scottsdale. They negotiated on price, but there's no point in them scrutinizing the equipment list because they have no opinion on any of it. If you are an AV junkie, you would look over everything and optimize every component. If not, you have to trust the installer because you don't add anything to the decision process. To clarify, it's 20ish speakers over 5 zones (20 zones would be pretty crazy). In high end outsourcing, you shouldn't need to know the details and you often don't want to know the details. C4 should understand their customer base and they should ensure that every install is perfect, and be there for them proactively if not.
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This is a large chunk of C4's customer base, probably the majority. They were probably in Singapore when they ordered the system in Scottsdale. They negotiated on price, but there's no point in them scrutinizing the equipment list because they have no opinion on any of it. If you are an AV junkie, you would look over everything and optimize every component. If not, you have to trust the installer because you don't add anything to the decision process. To clarify, it's 20ish speakers over 5 zones (20 zones would be pretty crazy). In high end outsourcing, you shouldn't need to know the details and you often don't want to know the details. C4 should understand their customer base and they should ensure that every install is perfect, and be there for them proactively if not.
It is and we are going in a spiral with our feelings. If you contact C4 during a botched install they are more than likely to help as I've seen several cases where they did step in to right a wrong.

Oh and I know they would not scrutinize the list but the installer would have to say we are going to deliver X, Y and Z functionality using A, B and C product. Rich people get rich because they are smart with their money, not because they just write checks blindly and hope for good end results. Again they may not know a dual voice coil speaker from a mono speaker but they should see - hey I want speakers in 5 zones, I talked the dealer about 5 zones, and I see that (or do not see) that here on the proposal. And if they ask "how do i play pandora, tidal, deezer, whatever" the dealer should say "oh that is through your Control4 system" or through "sonos", etc. Heck if it was sonos they used, he could have reached out to Sonos, troubleshooting would have led to the discovery of a C4 system, and then he would know to contact C4. The fact that he had previous log ins with C4 based on your other thread shows he knew C4 as a platform was involved somehow. Your other thread mentioned he forgot what email he used to create the account with C4. No need to nitpick and its all in the past. I think C4 knows their user base. They basically grew quarter over quarter while they were listed as a public company and a P/E firm purchased them at like a 30-40% premium over their trading price at the time.

Like most things online, you read horror stories - people rarely go online for fun to praise something, they go online to vent. and what I love about this site, 95% of the OP's NEVER COME BACK. You came back for help, and I think you got a ton of help to move you in the right direction. So someone comes on her, rants and moves on. Who knows how legit/viable those complaints are in the big picture. Like someone who complained about C4 not providing him TV when the cable was out but he wanted a DIY system {scratch my head and end my rant :-) }
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@ezlotogura if you are not getting checks from C4 you really should be.

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post #77 of 79 Old 08-02-2019, 11:43 AM
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It is and we are going in a spiral with our feelings. If you contact C4 during a botched install they are more than likely to help as I've seen several cases where they did step in to right a wrong.

Oh and I know they would not scrutinize the list but the installer would have to say we are going to deliver X, Y and Z functionality using A, B and C product. Rich people get rich because they are smart with their money, not because they just write checks blindly and hope for good end results. Again they may not know a dual voice coil speaker from a mono speaker but they should see - hey I want speakers in 5 zones, I talked the dealer about 5 zones, and I see that (or do not see) that here on the proposal. And if they ask "how do i play pandora, tidal, deezer, whatever" the dealer should say "oh that is through your Control4 system" or through "sonos", etc. Heck if it was sonos they used, he could have reached out to Sonos, troubleshooting would have led to the discovery of a C4 system, and then he would know to contact C4. The fact that he had previous log ins with C4 based on your other thread shows he knew C4 as a platform was involved somehow. Your other thread mentioned he forgot what email he used to create the account with C4. No need to nitpick and its all in the past. I think C4 knows their user base. They basically grew quarter over quarter while they were listed as a public company and a P/E firm purchased them at like a 30-40% premium over their trading price at the time.

Like most things online, you read horror stories - people rarely go online for fun to praise something, they go online to vent. and what I love about this site, 95% of the OP's NEVER COME BACK. You came back for help, and I think you got a ton of help to move you in the right direction. So someone comes on her, rants and moves on. Who knows how legit/viable those complaints are in the big picture. Like someone who complained about C4 not providing him TV when the cable was out but he wanted a DIY system {scratch my head and end my rant :-) }
Their real estate agent spec'ed out the system as he had done many times because he represented high-end rentals and prepped them for that. He created a laundry list for the house, and his spec was far better than what my brother-in-law could have created because he would not have known what to ask for. It was plain vanilla with nothing exotic - 5.1 in the ceiling for the main TV's, something like 4 speakers in a separate zone over the kitchen, ...

He never created a login or had anything to do with C4. The installer created the account for them based on the email address filed with the paperwork. When we had C4 recover the email address for the account, it was his wife's email address, which he would have never used for anything he created (and his wife certainly wouldn't have used it). His wife handled the payment, it was her email on the paperwork, so that's what the installer used on their behalf. They had no idea there was an account.

They were smart to have somebody who had a lot of experience spec the system, especially since they knew nothing about creating a whole-house system. There requirements spec was done entirely appropriately for the entire house, and they did negotiate price. They didn't waste money on what they bought, they were smart to outsource requirements to someone with experience, it just didn't work.

Does C4 do satisfaction surveys after installs? If so, they didn't get one. If not, why not?
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@ezlotogura if you are not getting checks from C4 you really should be.
nope - just an end user. I did make some money off their stock though so I will not complain. I am here to just clear up falsehoods that's all.

Look C4 has its warts and issues and I will not fight those. Examples - there is a flaw in the backlighting design of their lighting kit - that said they did start to create/send out a different sensor bar and it its like an 80% improvement. Until the release of OS3, their UI was WAY outdated especially at a premium price tag. They were way behind in doorstation technology until recently. And sometimes they decommission hardware to prevent upgrades - for instance recently with OS3 you could run the project on an HC800 with some limitations but an HC250 has to be completely removed - why? they were released at the same time - couldn't they find a way to just allow an HC250 to be used to repeat a zigbee signal and maybe be used for extra IR's/Serial ports, etc? And yes, its not 100% DIY so an techie site like AVSForum will not be very friendly towards C4 because its not the target audience here.

So maybe now I'll be off the payroll for pointing out these shortcomings!
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Their real estate agent spec'ed out the system as he had done many times because he represented high-end rentals and prepped them for that. He created a laundry list for the house, and his spec was far better than what my brother-in-law could have created because he would not have known what to ask for. It was plain vanilla with nothing exotic - 5.1 in the ceiling for the main TV's, something like 4 speakers in a separate zone over the kitchen, ...

He never created a login or had anything to do with C4. The installer created the account for them based on the email address filed with the paperwork. When we had C4 recover the email address for the account, it was his wife's email address, which he would have never used for anything he created (and his wife certainly wouldn't have used it). His wife handled the payment, it was her email on the paperwork, so that's what the installer used on their behalf. They had no idea there was an account.

They were smart to have somebody who had a lot of experience spec the system, especially since they knew nothing about creating a whole-house system. There requirements spec was done entirely appropriately for the entire house, and they did negotiate price. They didn't waste money on what they bought, they were smart to outsource requirements to someone with experience, it just didn't work.

Does C4 do satisfaction surveys after installs? If so, they didn't get one. If not, why not?
I do not work for c4, I have no idea if they survey after an install. Though as a home owner with c4 for 5+ years, I believe I have gotten 1-2 surveys from them, just not sure at what time point. There is a setting to opt in/out of that type of communication in your customer portal. How do you delineate when the install is completed? I am still working on my system 5 years later. Also like it or not, C4's customer is the dealer, not the end user. People hate to hear that, but its true. And that is something that wrinkles your feathers and as an end user, I feel that too, but I knew that when I got involved.

Red Flag - real estate agent specing out a home automation system? I just went through a full home renovation project - 3 bathroom updates, created 1 new bathroom, brand new kitchen, etc, basically gutted the house. I did not have my real estate agent spec out my new window layout or where I was putting my kitchen counter. Why would a real estate agent offer such a service and how are they qualified? I am not sure the agent was smart enough to design it properly or hand the proper spec over to the automation firm. Something is amiss there.

Again I feel sorry for your brother but I'd never take a real estate agent's advice on anything - they are always out to get you! Even in the sale of the home they want you to pay as much as possible yet they should be representing you, so go figure. But that is just my opinion of real estate agents (and btw I am in sales, so I do not loathe all sales people - just kitchen appliance sales, furniture sales and real estate agents!)
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