Ultra-D Glasses-Free 3D TV Hands-On Experience - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 01:31 PM
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If you don't have a 3D camcorder, Mark, I could ship you one of mine to try the experiment.
Sony TD300?

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post #32 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so much for the initial impressions! With a display like this, is it possible to actual pause a scene and record the paused screen on video while moving slightly side to side so that we can see what the effect is like? That would be amazing if you could.

We'll look forward to hearing more!

This is an excellent idea!!! I know Don Landis has recorded 3D demos at trade shows (from regular glasses-based 3D displays, and maybe even Ultra-D) with his specially outfitted Sony TD10 (using dual polarizing filters). It seems to me that it should be possible to shoot an Ultra-D screen with a normal 3D camcorder and record the 3D directly. It wouldn't be really high quality, but it's probably as close as I'm going to get to actually seeing the "peek around" feature in the foreseeable future.

If you don't have a 3D camcorder, Mark, I could ship you one of mine to try the experiment. Depends on whether there's enough time left during your review period. If you're interested. just let me know and I'll get it to you fast.

 

I am confident that you are correct, a 3D camcorder should capture what the Ultra-D screen shows, but I can't say that for sure. Let me see how long I can hold onto this unit, and I'll get back to you. By the way, there is no "peek around" effect. None whatsoever. Just depth.


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post #33 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 01:38 PM
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Sony TD300?

Nope. I have two JVCs and a Panasonic.
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I am confident that you are correct, a 3D camcorder should capture what the Ultra-D screen shows. Let me see how long I can hold onto this unit for and I'll get back to you. By the way, there is no "peek around" effect. None whatsoever. Just depth.

Just let me know, Mark. I'll send one of my JVC camcorders. It'll be easier to work with than the bigger Panasonic.

If there's no "peek around" effect, is an Ultra-D display any different than a normal 3D TV when you move your head to the side? And what is the "quasi-holographic" (my term, and apparently misinterpreted) characteristic of the display that both Mathu and Walther seemed to be implying?

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post #34 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony TD300?

Nope. I have two JVCs and a Panasonic.
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I am confident that you are correct, a 3D camcorder should capture what the Ultra-D screen shows. Let me see how long I can hold onto this unit for and I'll get back to you. By the way, there is no "peek around" effect. None whatsoever. Just depth.

Just let me know, Mark. I'll send one of my JVC camcorders. It'll be easier to work with than the bigger Panasonic.

If there's no "peek around" effect, is an Ultra-D display any different than a normal 3D TV when you move your head to the side? And what is the "quasi-holographic" (my term, and apparently misinterpreted) characteristic of the display that both Mathu and Walther seemed to be implying?

 

I'll take a really good look at how it responds relative to my Vizio, I have yet to set up both TVs running the same content simultaneously, but I do have that capability.


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post #35 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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I just talked to Leo from StreamTV and found out a few things...

The development prototype still processes everything, even when ostensibly in 2D mode—all it does is turn the 3D factor down to zero. In the final shipping products, 2D content will pass through untouched. Also, shipping TVs will have full 4K display capability, unlike the prototypes.


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post #36 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 02:49 PM
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I am confident that you are correct, a 3D camcorder should capture what the Ultra-D screen shows, but I can't say that for sure. Let me see how long I can hold onto this unit, and I'll get back to you. By the way, there is no "peek around" effect. None whatsoever. Just depth.

From this observation I take it that their claims that you can see the 3D effect with only one eye open are also incorrect?
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post #37 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 02:59 PM
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I just talked to Leo from StreamTV and found out a few things...


The development prototype still processes everything, even when ostensibly in 2D mode—all it does is turn the 3D factor down to zero. In the final shipping products, 2D content will pass through untouched. Also, shipping TVs will have full 4K display capability, unlike the prototypes.
Fantastic news. It'll be interesting to see how the input lag for PS3 2D and 3D games compares on the final shipping products.

Given that Toshiba have been confirmed as the "Japanese manufacturer" that StreamTV referred to, let's hope that some of the performance of the Z9X / L9400 series discussed in this thread - https://www.avsforum.com/t/1527302/toshiba-4k-65l9400-65z9x-and-vizio-65-reference-series-10-bit-panel - can carry over.

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post #38 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 03:19 PM
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From this observation I take it that their claims that you can see the 3D effect with only one eye open are also incorrect?

Exactly. The ability to move your head and see "around" an object with an Ultra-D display was the ONLY thing that made any sense at all with the "one-eyed" 3D claim. People with only one good eye can still perceive most other depth cues (objects get smaller with distance, distant objects are lighter, etc.). My understanding was that Ultra-D was capable of both stereoscopic views and motion parallax (peek around).

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post #39 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 03:47 PM
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oh well, guess they were a bit ambitious there like everyone else in this industry seems to be....but I distinctly remember the man emphatically claiming that it would be a hologram effect and that was why we could see with just one eye and "peek around" the images.
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post #40 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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oh well, guess they were a bit ambitious there like everyone else in this industry seems to be....but I distinctly remember the man emphatically claiming that it would be a hologram effect and that was why we could see with just one eye and "peek around" the images.

I just took a really close look. You see an undistorted 2D image when you close one eye. If you bob your head with one eye closed, you actually see a stroboscopic animation flipping between the left and right eye view. It's not like transitioning between "viewing cones," like with old-school autostereoscopic displays—the distance your head has to move is very small. It's like a flip-book effect. It's not like looking at a hologram.


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post #41 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 04:16 PM
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Sounds very promising all the same. They can make that other great leap some other time.
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post #42 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds very promising all the same. They can make that other great leap some other time.

 

Exactly. Of greater importance is how it does with 2D conversion and 3D content. I just gave a demo to someone who's never seen it, he agreed that it truly works. I loaded up some 2D videos from YouTube and it did a great job with the conversion. The Three Stooges translated really well, as did a number of music videos I checked out. Also, Katy Perry's "Dark Horse" looked bonkers converted to 3D, with its crazy costumes and set design!


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post #43 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 05:23 PM
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Hi Mark, I really appreciate the time and effort you are spending in bringing us all this good info on Ultra D. One quick question regarding the input lag. You mentioned that for gaming it was a little like driving drunk, and I'm assuming this was with a game that was being converted from 2d-3d. Do you have the means to test a game that has native 3d output to see if that input lag is significantly reduced? Obviously as PC title would be your best bet but I believe ps3 has some games that have s3d output options (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_3D_PlayStation_3_games). Or if you have a PS4 I think Trine 2 outputs native s3d.

I understand that this is still a pre-production model but it would be a real blow to gamers if the input lag was a bad as you suggested across all sources, because as you have experienced an interactive medium like gaming truly comes alive in 3D.

Thanks,

Joe.
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post #44 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark, I really appreciate the time and effort you are spending in bringing us all this good info on Ultra D. One quick question regarding the input lag. You mentioned that for gaming it was a little like driving drunk, and I'm assuming this was with a game that was being converted from 2d-3d. Do you have the means to test a game that has native 3d output to see if that input lag is significantly reduced? Obviously as PC title would be your best bet but I believe ps3 has some games that have s3d output options (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_3D_PlayStation_3_games). Or if you have a PS4 I think Trine 2 outputs native s3d.

I understand that this is still a pre-production model but it would be a real blow to gamers if the input lag was a bad as you suggested across all sources, because as you have experienced an interactive medium like gaming truly comes alive in 3D.

Thanks,

Joe.

 

I was running Need for Speed: Rivals in native 3D from my PC. For what it's worth, the lag is no worse than 3D mode on my Vizio. When I talked to Leo today, he confirmed that the input lag is largely due to the fact the Ultra-D processing is not yet integrated into the TV. That integration is right around the corner and I look forward to experiencing the difference. 

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post #45 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 06:13 PM
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I just took a really close look. You see an undistorted 2D image when you close one eye. If you bob your head with one eye closed, you actually see a stroboscopic animation flipping between the left and right eye view. It's not like transitioning between "viewing cones," like with old-school autostereoscopic displays—the distance your head has to move is very small. It's like a flip-book effect. It's not like looking at a hologram.

That's not exactly what I expected, but no matter how that particular aspect works (or doesn't), the most important thing is that it's effective glasses free 3D. I'm working on a 3D video that involves an ideal venue for Ultra-D displays. Are your sources at Stream still predicting a summer release in the States? As time passes, I become less optimistic.

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post #46 of 200 Old 05-01-2014, 08:13 PM
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That's not exactly what I expected, but no matter how that particular aspect works (or doesn't), the most important thing is that it's effective glasses free 3D. I'm working on a 3D video that involves an ideal venue for Ultra-D displays. Are your sources at Stream still predicting a summer release in the States? As time passes, I become less optimistic.

I completely agree. So long as it replicates the 3D effect of a current active-3D capable home display without major distortion or "fuzziness" in a glasses free fashion and allows 2D pass-through, then I'm sold!

Now, summer is probably way too optimistic given where it seems Ultra-D are in their development. With the obvious pent up demand and hype that would surround this, they'd also need to really ramp up their PR and advertising to guarantee quick uptake. Maybe by winter? frown.gif
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imagic

 

Hello... Please can you tell me how and where you purchased this screen... I know its a demo... and not production ready. But i really need this. I have been in touch with steam tv, but they could not help me. They sent me to Hi-sense. Please can you help me.

 

Regards,

T

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post #48 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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imagic

 

Hello... Please can you tell me how and where you purchased this screen... I know its a demo... and not production ready. But i really need this. I have been in touch with steam tv, but they could not help me. They sent me to Hi-sense. Please can you help me.

 

Regards,

T

I did not purchase it. I have it for one more week and that's it. It is a development unit, it's not for sale.


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post #49 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 07:42 AM
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Ok thank You. is it possible to give me the details of the folks that loaned you this device?

 

Regards,

T

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Ok thank You. is it possible to give me the details of the folks that loaned you this device?

Regards,
T

I can guarantee you will not get your hands on one. Your best option is to wait for the consumer release.
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Man, people are really dying for this product to get to market!!

I can't wait to see it and play some 3D games on it. Might have to pick this up for xmass. Although I love my projector...darn.

I wonder if there'll ever be glasses-free 3D tech for projectors.
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post #52 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Man, people are really dying for this product to get to market!!

I can't wait to see it and play some 3D games on it. Might have to pick this up for xmass. Although I love my projector...darn.

I wonder if there'll ever be glasses-free 3D tech for projectors.

 

StreamTV won't comment on the viability of a front projection-based system. However, it's self-evident to me that it could work with big screen rear projection since the technology is "display agnostic." With advances in laser short-throw projection, maybe something like that will appear in the future. If I hear anything, I'll certainly report on it.


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post #53 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 11:57 AM
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After purchasing my LG passive set, I noticed major input screen lag, making it unusable for gaming especially on really fast FPS games, I therefore had to use my older set for that. And I never understood the whole passive vs. active debate. You've only got the same amount of pixels as a passive. You don't see all of them at once on active. With passive you need both eyes to see see 1080p if you're talking 3D and then if you're watching sbs 3d it isn't 1080p anyway. I've never watched a 3D Blu ray and thought it doesn't look like 1080p on passive. And now we have glasses free coming so that will introduce new advantages and drawbacks. I wonder if this tech is a little too late though, 3D seems to be winding down.

Sony needs to make 3D Blu ray authoring more affordable as well as Blu ray in general. With streaming and HD downloading, they need to do something to keep it going. DVD was never this expensive to author 8 years into DVD's reign. At this rate DVD will outlive Blu ray purely out of cost.

My biggest worry about this panel would be if I buy it, will it be a good all around panel? I bought a new LG a few years ago, but can't use it for gaming, so I have to keep an older LCD around, if I buy this one, will it have lag? Or will it have a whole new set of issues that mean I have to have another set for other uses? Will it play 3D as well as glasses TV? For me, glasses isn't a big issue, especially with passive. Glasses free doesn't really introduce anything new quality wise, unless it really is better looking 3D. I wear glasses anyway so attaching the clip on isn't hard, but even if I have contacts in which isn't that often around the house, it isn't that hard either. The hardest thing is having to clean them first if needed.

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post #54 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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After purchasing my LG passive set, I noticed major input screen lag, making it unusable for gaming especially on really fast FPS games, I therefore had to use my older set for that. And I never understood the whole passive vs. active debate. You've only got the same amount of pixels as a passive. You don't see all of them at once on active. With passive you need both eyes to see see 1080p if you're talking 3D and then if you're watching sbs 3d it isn't 1080p anyway. I've never watched a 3D Blu ray and thought it doesn't look like 1080p on passive. And now we have glasses free coming so that will introduce new advantages and drawbacks. I wonder if this tech is a little too late though, 3D seems to be winding down.

Sony needs to make 3D Blu ray authoring more affordable as well as Blu ray in general. With streaming and HD downloading, they need to do something to keep it going. DVD was never this expensive to author 8 years into DVD's reign. At this rate DVD will outlive Blu ray purely out of cost.

My biggest worry about this panel would be if I buy it, will it be a good all around panel? I bought a new LG a few years ago, but can't use it for gaming, so I have to keep an older LCD around, if I buy this one, will it have lag? Or will it have a whole new set of issues that mean I have to have another set for other uses? Will it play 3D as well as glasses TV? For me, glasses isn't a big issue, especially with passive. Glasses free doesn't really introduce anything new quality wise, unless it really is better looking 3D. I wear glasses anyway so attaching the clip on isn't hard, but even if I have contacts in which isn't that often around the house, it isn't that hard either. The hardest thing is having to clean them first if needed.

 

Ultra-D is a licensed technology. The OEM TVs that feature it will have the ability to bypass Ultra-D at which point it will perform like any other TV. I have no idea how much latency the final product will introduce when displaying 3D, I hope to have some idea soon.

The main thing you get from glasses-free 3D is richer, more accurate colors and a brighter image. For anyone who does not wear glasses, not having to do so is a major plus. 

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The main thing you get from glasses-free 3D is richer, more accurate colors and a brighter image. For anyone who does not wear glasses, not having to do so is a major plus. 

^^This. Plus: wearing 3D glasses over your regular glasses is also a pain in the butt and younger kids generally won't stand for wearing 3D glasses for too long, especially active glasses.
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post #56 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 01:48 PM
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StreamTV won't comment on the viability of a front projection-based system. However, it's self-evident to me that it could work with big screen rear projection since the technology is "display agnostic." With advances in laser short-throw projection, maybe something like that will appear in the future. If I hear anything, I'll certainly report on it.

How is that possible? I listened to Scott's Podcast and I was pretty sure they mentioned that where was some sort of lenticular lens in front of the panel. If the technology is truly "display agnostic", then why couldn't it be implemented farther up the stream, like in a blu-ray player?

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post #57 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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StreamTV won't comment on the viability of a front projection-based system. However, it's self-evident to me that it could work with big screen rear projection since the technology is "display agnostic." With advances in laser short-throw projection, maybe something like that will appear in the future. If I hear anything, I'll certainly report on it.

How is that possible? I listened to Scott's Podcast and I was pretty sure they mentioned that where was some sort of lenticular lens in front of the panel. If the technology is truly "display agnostic", then why couldn't it be implemented farther up the stream, like in a blu-ray player?

 

Sorry, I should have said "backlit flat-panel display-agnostic," as in it works with LCD or Plasma or OLED or Rear projection (even CRT, presumably). The key is that light has to pass through a lenticular filter on the screen, as opposed to reflecting off it.


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post #58 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 02:09 PM
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So I guess the set I'm saving up for now has gone from an 84" 4K OLED to an 84" 4K OLED Ultra-D set biggrin.gif
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post #59 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 02:20 PM
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StreamTV won't comment on the viability of a front projection-based system. However, it's self-evident to me that it could work with big screen rear projection since the technology is "display agnostic." With advances in laser short-throw projection, maybe something like that will appear in the future. If I hear anything, I'll certainly report on it.


How is that possible? I listened to Scott's Podcast and I was pretty sure they mentioned that where was some sort of lenticular lens in front of the panel. If the technology is truly "display agnostic", then why couldn't it be implemented farther up the stream, like in a blu-ray player?

Sorry, I should have said "backlit flat-panel display-agnostic," as in it works with LCD or Plasma or OLED or Rear projection (even CRT, presumably). The key is that light has to pass through a lenticular filter on the screen, as opposed to reflecting off it.

You can see what they add to a standard display from this link: http://www.seecubic.com/ultra-d/technology/implementations/
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post #60 of 200 Old 05-02-2014, 10:18 PM
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Sorry, I should have said "backlit flat-panel display-agnostic," as in it works with LCD or Plasma or OLED or Rear projection (even CRT, presumably). The key is that light has to pass through a lenticular filter on the screen, as opposed to reflecting off it.

Got it. Your initial comment about not commenting on front-projection viability threw me off; but had I read it more carefully I would have noticed you only theorized about flat panels and rear projection.

Your comment provided me the chance to mention little non-sequitir: Am I the only one who thinks the idea of serious HT-centric short-throw projectors could be a big thing? They have some obvious advantages over traditional HTPJ's: Being so close, they don't need nearly the same wattage lamps to throw an image comparable in brightness to a traditional PJ. The placement means the PJ would also be typically farther from the audience, potentially diminishing apparent heat and noise. I'm just sayin'.

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